Silver Star sleeper update

[Anderson]

The share of overall travelers traveling from "pure" endpoint to endpoint is admittedly relatively small; however, on the Silvers in particular there is a huge amount of travel between "somewhere north of ALX" to "somewhere south of JAX"; these numbers are, I believe, a pretty good share of both trains' ridership...and more importantly, a rather large portion of the riders on either train at any given time. The SB Meteor, in particular, will often have about two coaches (and a majority of the occupied sleepers; I've sometimes seen the WPB/FLL/MIA/ORL-bound pax spill in to a third coach as well) full of Florida-bound pax when departing WAS/ALX.

 

[AlanB]

You have evidence that they run out, and that they could stock more than they usually. You don't have evidence that they are actually capable of stocking enough food to get all the way from New York to Toronto to New York, because this seems to never, ever happen even when extra food is ordered.

No sir, I have evidence that it was capable of stocking enough food to do the round trip. Yes, she ran out of some things before our arrival back into NYP. But she didn't run out of food entirely. I wasn't forced to buy a breakfast sandwich for dinner like I had to do on a few occasions in the past.

And my attendant was making an educated guess on her own without help from computers and past data points on just how much to over order the normal load on. She probably could have ordered a few more of the most popular items such that she basically didn't run out until the last minute. And frankly you don't want to have much left over anyhow if you can help it. Running out of certain items by Poughkeepsie on the return trip is acceptable. Running out of certain items by the time the train reaches Buffalo on the return is NOT acceptable. Nor is running out of all lunch/dinner items by the time the train reaches Albany acceptable.

And again, I'll remind you that they have to be mindful of the fact that they must hit Niagara Falls with 1 fridge and 1 freezer empty. And I'll remind you again that the storage capacity of a Diner-Lite car is greater than the storage capacity of a Club-Dinette.

Finally, let me be clear. I'm not happy with this decision by Amtrak to drop the diner. I do NOT support it! I'm simply saying that storage capacity is far greater in these cafe cars than people seem to think. The bigger issue is properly stocking the cars to handle the load; not a lack of cold storage! Again, I don't and won't guarantee that they might not run out of food by the time a southbound train hits West Palm Beach. But there is no reason for the cafe to run out of food by Savannah, other than improperly stocking the cafe car at Sunnyside and failure to fix the issue in DC.

 

[user 1215]

Can someone do a quick cost analysis on what the revenue for a full sleeper needs to be to match the revenue of a full coach? First - a capacity vs rate comparison.

Then how much more is needed for amenities, consumables, crew and laundry - not including dining allowance?

What if every roomette only has one passenger and coach is full? The accommodation charge isn't less, but you lose the rail fare.

For example, the MOST a sleeper can carry is 28 passengers. This is vs 58? in coach. So, the minimum would be for each sleeper fare to be double the coach rate. But it's most likely that the 12 roomettes have one person each and the bedrooms have two, so lets say that you can "sell out" a sleeper with only 18 passengers. That would require about 3x the revenue of coach.

Can one SCA take care of two Viewliners? I believe the minimum coach attendants now for LD trains is one for every two cars...

...a work in progress.

So, some assumptions: the following assumes revenue for a sold out coach and sleeper with every passenger riding from MIA to NYP. Buckets are not considered.

On June 30th, the cost for a single coach traveller from MIA to NYP is $144. A Roomette is $462. A Bedroom is $706. A 2nd passenger adds $144 to any selection.

On July 1st, the cost for a single coach traveller from MIA to NYP is $144. A Roomette is $340. A Bedroom is $566. A 2nd passenger adds $144 to any selection.

So, real quick, a sell out coach would bring in $8,352. Before the change, a sellout in a sleeper with 2 in every room could bring in $9,578. But if the minimum of one per room was in the sellout, the revenue would be worse than coach at $7,418. So the line is close with a full sellout. That $1,226 has to pay for 5 meals for 28 people. Let's just average $20 per person per meal and the diner gets $2800. And we haven't even taken the cost of coffee, juice, newspapers, and laundry into consideration.

But the tragedy is that even in the best sellout conditions with the new trial, the BEST a sleeper can take in for revenue is $7,712 - $640 less than a sold out coach.

Now, take away my assumptions and realize real world, the turn over for seats in coach is much greater than turn over in a sleeper. In other words, one seat between MIA and NYP may collect revenue from 2 to 4 unique individuals, whereas a sleeper may only get one or two.

I'm not up to the task of the calculus and algorhythms to maximize, but on the surface, it looks like the sleepers are a losing proposition WITHOUT the diners and should probably cost about double what they do now WITHOUT food.

 

[rrdude]

Again, the problem isn't storage, but rather the way too conservative loading of the cars! And with the loss of the diner on the Star, Amtrak & the commissary need to double down and then some!

Welcome home, AlanB! Missed ya!

Is it Amtrak or the Attendant making the stocking decisions? I would hope that there would be nothing in the stock that would expire outside of two weeks from when it's loaded. I would imagine that the Cafe Car Attendant would want to maximize stock to ensure NOTHING is sold out. Maximum revenue, after all, equals maximum gratuities. And if it's Amtrak's decision, I would suggest a shop steward get involved (And this is from a non-union sorta guy).

It's Amtrak and its models in conjunction with the commissary that make the stocking decision. Apparently the LSA can override the norm and request extra. I'm not sure if they can do that at any time or if it requires a special circumstance; like in my case, it was a holiday weekend.

And we got really, really lucky that we had a smart, interested in customer service LSA who exercised her option to add on to the normal stocking levels and did the right thing for her customers. I know of another LSA who plies that route, or at least used to, who would never have taken that initiative and would have been happy to run out of food and just sit down and relax from Buffalo to NYP.

Finally, while I have no actual data, I rather suspect that tips are on the small side for the cafe LSA. Dining car attendants and sleeping car attendants do much, much better in the tip department than a cafe LSA.

Alan is spot-on: It takes a caring LSA, one who has "Hospitality" on their mind-set, to order more stock. Why? More stock means more loading and setting up display, and if you do it right, more "organizing" stock, so the surplus doesn't take up seat/table space. It means more counting at the end, and it means more accountability for the LSA.

However, that "Hospitality minded" LSA also "gets" that it probably means more happy pax, and more happy pax, usually means more TIPS! Worked for me back in the day. I was constantly harraunged by my supervisors for ordering extra on the Michigan and Illinois trains, but I KNEW when a weekend football game, or long weekend (student) would crush the normal PAR for the trip.

Most of the supervisors didn't care that I doubled or even more, the "average sales" on that route/day. because THEY had to notate that the PAR was upped, and for WHAT reason.... God I got into some awful arguments. Some were such dicks they wouldn't even help me count or offload. A few, I'll grant them that, applauded my effort, but still felt the need to comment that it "required more paperwork".

I tell ya though, run out of beer ONCE, less than an hour out of Chicago, with several hours to go, and a line in the cafe or worse, "Panic Box" that goes into the next car, or up the stairs, and you will ALWAYS check the calendar for universities, sports, car shows, etc., ANYthing that people would ride a train to get to.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

I know a good LSA who works the same line will quickly learn what sells and what does not sell and heopefully he or she is able to fine tune the Stock Order to adjust for this, going heavy on popular sellers and light on stuff that does not sell. That way they can make more efficient use of the storage facilities they currently have, keep pax happy by having enough popular items on hand, keep more money coming into Amtrak's Kitty and perhaps most important in the LSA's Point of View, keep the Tip Jar full.

I would hope as a whole Amtrak keeps records of this and can break them down by route, time of week, time of year, etc and calculate suggested stock loads from there.

 

[jis]

Amtrak middle and line management's take home needs to be more connected with financial performance of what they manage. All large companies have a core segment and a performance segment in their salary calculation. Amtrak needs to get upt o speed with such. We are talking management here, so no union issues as far as I understand.

I have always suspected that just like it is fashionable among the incompetent to blame their computer, similarly one can blame storage space and such other silliness when a little bit of planning will get you around many of such popular excuses.

BTW, on this issue I trust AlanB more than anyone else on the board, since he has been at analyzing this way longer than most here.

 

[Ryan]

I would hope as a whole Amtrak keeps records of this and can break them down by route, time of week, time of year, etc and calculate suggested stock loads from there.

If not, hopefully the POS rollout will allow them to more easily capture this data and act on it.

 

[jis]

If the primary goal of the F&B system is to minimize spoilage to the exclusion of everything else then no matter what data they have this problem will not get solved. The primary goal has got to be to have food available for the customer when they want it. The spoilage thing then just becomes a balancing issue in balanced scorecard. You do not clubber your primary goal completely to meet a secondary tactical goal. Well, at least in the normal intelligent management world you don't.

 

[KmH]

I believe the minimum coach attendants now for LD trains is one for every two cars...

According to page 6-74 of the Amtrak Service Standards Manual (Version 8) attendant staffing for coach cars is keyed to passenger count rather than to car count.

A single Train Attendant - Coach could be required to tend to up to 4 coach cars as long as the number of passengers doesn't exceed a coach passenger count of 150 for at least four (4) hours of daylight travel.

Once the number of passengers does exceed a coach passenger count of 150 for at least four (4) hours of daylight travel, a second Train Attendant - Coach is added to the crew and the 2 Train Attendant-Coach crew could be required to care for up to 6 coach cars as long as the passenger count is 300 or less for at least four (4) hours of daylight travel.

A 3rd attendant is added when the passenger count exceeds 300, and a 4th attendant is added when the passenger count reaches 376 for at

least four (4) hours of daylight travel.

 

[cirdan]

Can someone do a quick cost analysis on what the revenue for a full sleeper needs to be to match the revenue of a full coach? First - a capacity vs rate comparison.

Then how much more is needed for amenities, consumables, crew and laundry - not including dining allowance?

What if every roomette only has one passenger and coach is full? The accommodation charge isn't less, but you lose the rail fare.

For example, the MOST a sleeper can carry is 28 passengers. This is vs 58? in coach. So, the minimum would be for each sleeper fare to be double the coach rate. But it's most likely that the 12 roomettes have one person each and the bedrooms have two, so lets say that you can "sell out" a sleeper with only 18 passengers. That would require about 3x the revenue of coach.

Can one SCA take care of two Viewliners? I believe the minimum coach attendants now for LD trains is one for every two cars...

...a work in progress.

So, some assumptions: the following assumes revenue for a sold out coach and sleeper with every passenger riding from MIA to NYP. Buckets are not considered.

On June 30th, the cost for a single coach traveller from MIA to NYP is $144. A Roomette is $462. A Bedroom is $706. A 2nd passenger adds $144 to any selection.

On July 1st, the cost for a single coach traveller from MIA to NYP is $144. A Roomette is $340. A Bedroom is $566. A 2nd passenger adds $144 to any selection.

So, real quick, a sell out coach would bring in $8,352. Before the change, a sellout in a sleeper with 2 in every room could bring in $9,578. But if the minimum of one per room was in the sellout, the revenue would be worse than coach at $7,418. So the line is close with a full sellout. That $1,226 has to pay for 5 meals for 28 people. Let's just average $20 per person per meal and the diner gets $2800. And we haven't even taken the cost of coffee, juice, newspapers, and laundry into consideration.

But the tragedy is that even in the best sellout conditions with the new trial, the BEST a sleeper can take in for revenue is $7,712 - $640 less than a sold out coach.

Now, take away my assumptions and realize real world, the turn over for seats in coach is much greater than turn over in a sleeper. In other words, one seat between MIA and NYP may collect revenue from 2 to 4 unique individuals, whereas a sleeper may only get one or two.

I'm not up to the task of the calculus and algorhythms to maximize, but on the surface, it looks like the sleepers are a losing proposition WITHOUT the diners and should probably cost about double what they do now WITHOUT food.

I think you're assuming that if you abolished sleepers, that all those passengers would book coach instead and in doing so would generate more returns for Amtrak. They would pay less, sure, but they would also cause less costs and Amtrak would be better off for it.

In reality, I think this is not how it works. Many sleeper passengers would probably not go in coach, at least not for longer journeys. Its a different demographic. So by abolishing sleepers you would be saying bye bye to those passengers.

It is much the same argument, is Amtrak sacrificing revenue by attaching private varnish to trains or working with the likes of Iowa Pacific. Without doubt, some of the people riding to New Orleans on Iowa Pacific might otherwise be Amtrak sleeper passengers. Should Amtrak cancel their contract with Iowa Pacific because of this? I think not.

I do agree that something needs to be done with the pricing. So for example if you book a roomette for single occupancy, the fare should be something like the same for the same roomette with double occupancy minus meal costs of the second passenger. If Amtrak is selling notably under that price, that needs looking into.

 

[Ryan]

In reality, I think this is not how it works. Many sleeper passengers would probably not go in coach, at least not for longer journeys. Its a different demographic. So by abolishing sleepers you would be saying bye bye to those passengers.

Absolutely - if I can't have a sleeper for an overnight journey, I'm stuffing myself in a plane and either getting a hotel or leaving the next morning.

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

If done right this could be a great concept. Americans love fast casual dining. A cafe with a beefed up menu that offers much more than hot dogs,hamburgers and pizza could be a huge success. The new viewliner diners could fill this role perfectly. A cafe counter equipped with much more than a microwave could replace the kitchen and would require only 1-2 crew members. With lower sleeper fares and improved food options that aren't in the $15-20 range could drastically increase sleeper and food sales. This could make the long distance trains much healthier.

 

[gabbygrrl]

I think I'm in the right topic for this comment: I called today to book the Silver Star from FTL to BOS in November. I requested a roomette for 2 adults. I was told that after July 1 of this year, food was no longer included in the cost of the roomette for the Silver train 92. She said they were testing it to determine if the move was going to be permanent. She said they will no longer be hauling a dining car, only a snack car, and all purchases would be at an extra cost.

Mind you, the fare has not dropped for the route. She also said it will also apply to the Silver Star on the Southbound route. I asked her to switch me over to the Silver Meteor and verified that meals are still included on that train. She said yes, and until the "experiment" with the Star is over, nothing else is expected to change.

She did throw in that she has received many cancellations from Star passengers due to the meals being removed from service. I presume they switched to other options as opposed to traveling in coach. As someone else mentioned, it's a different demographic and the sleeper passengers may rather drive than sit in coach...or that's just me )

(I apologize if someone has already posted this info)

 

[user 1215]

In reality, I think this is not how it works. Many sleeper passengers would probably not go in coach, at least not for longer journeys. Its a different demographic. So by abolishing sleepers you would be saying bye bye to those passengers.

Absolutely - if I can't have a sleeper for an overnight journey, I'm stuffing myself in a plane and either getting a hotel or leaving the next morning.

I guess that is what this "experiment" is supposed to answer.

If done right this could be a great concept. Americans love fast casual dining. A cafe with a beefed up menu that offers much more than hot dogs,hamburgers and pizza could be a huge success. The new viewliner diners could fill this role perfectly. A cafe counter equipped with much more than a microwave could replace the kitchen and would require only 1-2 crew members. With lower sleeper fares and improved food options that aren't in the $15-20 range could drastically increase sleeper and food sales. This could make the long distance trains much healthier.

Unfortunately, they aren't doing that. Same ol' café car. Same ol' menu. Same ol' long lines. If they threw in a Diner Lite or a Cross Country Café, that would be a different story all together. However, I don't see that happening with single level equipment any time soon. I wonder if it's too late to perhaps mod 3 of the VLD's into a VLCCC or VLDL.

Mind you, the fare has not dropped for the route. She also said it will also apply to the Silver Star on the Southbound route. I asked her to switch me over to the Silver Meteor and verified that meals are still included on that train. She said yes, and until the "experiment" with the Star is over, nothing else is expected to change.

The fare was supposed to drop. I cannot imagine the Star (slower) being the same price (with or without food) as the Meteor. Almost Ever (holidays and other sell out periods excepted). In my example above, the savings should be at least $120 to $140, except that adding more distance would likely increase the sleeper fare at a higher rate than the rail fare.

 

[niemi24s]

A quick check of fares for 1 adult from NYP to MIA (and MIA to NYP) on 20 Oct 2015 shows (for coach & roomette): Star $144 & $310; Meteor $144 & $433 for a $123 drop for the Star. 20 Oct was the only date checked.

I think somebody should make daily checks starting now for the 1 July 2015 to 31 Jan 2016 period to see when the Star roomette fare is more than that for the Meteor (on the same date)! Impossible? I don't think so.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Mind you, the fare has not dropped for the route.

Can you be more specific about this? I know two people were already booked on the SS before the changes were made and they got eVouchers for the difference in price.

 

[user 1215]

For a random Monday in November, I see a difference in price from FTL to BOS of a measly $109 for one. That savings is split if two are traveling in the same room. And that's for 5 hours more on the train.

On the last Monday before the trial period, the savings of the Star over the Meteor is $15. So the net difference for lack of food is $94.

On the complete other hand, I don't think I'd like to leave my sleeper and change trains in WAS to an overnight coach train, whereas on the Meteor you can change at NYP.

 

[Palmetto]

FWIW, I used a voucher today for a 9/26 MIA-BOS trip; Sleeper in the Meteor to NY; regular coach NY-Bos. Fare: $411.00. Interestesingly, I'm in car 9811. I'm wondering if the roomettes in the 9810 car are already gone. I did ask for a room in the middle of the car, so this may have moved me back to the 11 car.

 

[Anderson]

FWIW, I used a voucher today for a 9/26 MIA-BOS trip; Sleeper in the Meteor to NY; regular coach NY-Bos. Fare: $411.00. Interestesingly, I'm in car 9811. I'm wondering if the roomettes in the 9810 car are already gone. I did ask for a room in the middle of the car, so this may have moved me back to the 11 car.

I think the computer tries to spread pax evenly between the planned sleepers for a train (if only so you don't end up with one SCA who is swamped and another with no passengers).

 

[AlanB]

FWIW, I used a voucher today for a 9/26 MIA-BOS trip; Sleeper in the Meteor to NY; regular coach NY-Bos. Fare: $411.00. Interestesingly, I'm in car 9811. I'm wondering if the roomettes in the 9810 car are already gone. I did ask for a room in the middle of the car, so this may have moved me back to the 11 car.

I think the computer tries to spread pax evenly between the planned sleepers for a train (if only so you don't end up with one SCA who is swamped and another with no passengers).

Correct, the computer tries its best to load balance the sleeping cars on any given train. Groups and special requests can & do unbalance things somewhat; but even then the computer will try to bring things back into balance as quickly as possible.

 

[Anderson]

If done right this could be a great concept. Americans love fast casual dining. A cafe with a beefed up menu that offers much more than hot dogs,hamburgers and pizza could be a huge success. The new viewliner diners could fill this role perfectly. A cafe counter equipped with much more than a microwave could replace the kitchen and would require only 1-2 crew members. With lower sleeper fares and improved food options that aren't in the $15-20 range could drastically increase sleeper and food sales. This could make the long distance trains much healthier.

This wasn't too far off from the diner-club idea Amtrak had (basically, drop the cafe and only have a diner...but keep it open with a somewhat more limited menu all day). One issue is that while the cafe operates for most of 17-18 hours per day, the diner is basically open for only 9-10 hours...so about half of the day is "dead time" for the car.

 

[jis]

There is something to be learned from Alaska Rail Road. In the off season trains they have a single food service car which serves both as the sit down meal Diner and the occasional food purchase Cafe car throughout the journey.

 

[I always rode the Southern]

A quick check of fares for 1 adult from NYP to MIA (and MIA to NYP) on 20 Oct 2015 shows (for coach & roomette): Star $144 & $310; Meteor $144 & $433 for a $123 drop for the Star. 20 Oct was the only date checked.

I think somebody should make daily checks starting now for the 1 July 2015 to 31 Jan 2016 period to see when the Star roomette fare is more than that for the Meteor (on the same date)! Impossible? I don't think so.

Since my journey from Tampa almost always ends in WAS, I am almost always given both options, Star or Meteor, unless one is SO. So I always see prices for both to compare, and I can tell you that the star has almost without exception, had lower sleeper fares than the meteor. I can't prove it to you because I never took screenshots for such a situation as today; but I know what I know as I've been taking these trains for years. And I would always bit** to myself when I was forced to take the meteor when I was going straight to Pgh rather than stay overnight in WAS to visit my son.

So the fact that there is a difference in sleeper prices on future dates doesn't convince me of anything. Show me what the difference in price was on a date 3,6, 9 months or a year ago and I may concede there is a significant difference. But that still doesn't address the equally important issue of the lack of any quality, healthy food in the cafe car worth waiting in a very long line for..

.

 

[jis]

Amtrak's press release said that bucket for bucket the price difference is of the order of $65 for roomette. The bigger differences we are seeing is because the Meteor typically sits at a higher bucket most of the time than the Star.

 

[niemi24s]

A quick check of fares for 1 adult from NYP to MIA (and MIA to NYP) on 20 Oct 2015 shows (for coach & roomette): Star $144 & $310; Meteor $144 & $433 for a $123 drop for the Star. 20 Oct was the only date checked.

I think somebody should make daily checks starting now for the 1 July 2015 to 31 Jan 2016 period to see when the Star roomette fare is more than that for the Meteor (on the same date)! Impossible? I don't think so.

So the fact that there is a difference in sleeper prices on future dates doesn't convince me of anything.

Sorry, didn't think I was trying to convince anybody of anything. Just stating some factual information about fare differences in the first paragraph and letting my mind wander in the second.

And my mind wandered again after supper and led me to sniff out roomette fares between NYP and MIA for both the Meteor and Star for every date from 1 July 2015 through 31 Jan 2016, inclusive. Star roomettes fluctuated between $310 and $375 while those on the Meteor went from $433 to $722. The lowest difference during that period was $93, the most common was appeared to be $123 and the highest was $382. Roomettes on the Star were always the lesser of the two. Then on 1 Feb 2016 both were $375. Just facts. Nothing more. They're worth just what you paid for them.