Solution for Everett, WA Mudslides

[jmbgeg]

Mudslides south of Everett in route to Seattle have been very disruptive for the Empire Builder this winter, and even before, though it is not just a winter problem. If train 7 is south of Everett when the mudslide ocurs, the equipment is stuck in Seattle for a 48 hour BNSF hold. Train 8 can't depart until clearance is granted. If 7 is east of Everett, they bus passengers to Seattle and originate the next train 8 in Everett.

Everett no doubt comprises a material number of detraining train 7 passengers and boarding train 8 travelers. BNSF has not found a solution for the increasing frequency of hillside mudslides south of Everett. Discussions on this board have spoken of very expensive solutions.

Could the problem be solved by a more direct Empire Builder route to Seattle that eliminates the jog north to Everett; combined with a regularly scheduled Thruway bus Seattle to Everett (and vice versa) for Everett passengers? That could hypothetically cut an hour or more out of the SPK-SEA trip, giving the Builder more opportunity to depart train 8 on time eastbound if 7 is late arriving. It could eliminate those times when train 8 is cancelled because the equipment is stuck on the wrong side of an Everett mudslide.

This would all depend upon there being a more direct route from Stevens pass (or elsewhere) to Seattle that would accomodate daily Amtrak routing. I don't know the track layouts remotely well enough to know if that is a possibility. I am sure other AU members do though. Is there any merit to this idea, or are the mudslide related disruptions infrequent enough that it is not worth talking about?

 

[Eric S]

Use Stampede Pass instead of Stevens Pass?

 

[the_traveler]

Does Stampede Pass still have tracks?

I thought they were removed?

 

[jmbgeg]

Use Stampede Pass instead of Stevens Pass?

Here is a BNSF route map. Not enough detail to tell where the passes are:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/83/BNSF_Railway_system_map.svg/2000px-BNSF_Railway_system_map.svg.png

UP map does not seen to provide any options.

 

[Eric S]

BNSF reopened Stampede Pass sometime in the 1990s, I believe. However, I think in recent years they have stopped running through trains over it, so I'm not sure what condition it is in at this point.

 

[jmbgeg]

BNSF reopened Stampede Pass sometime in the 1990s, I believe. However, I think in recent years they have stopped running through trains over it, so I'm not sure what condition it is in at this point.

If the tracks are inactive, that would pretty much rule it out.

Is there no way to go direct to Seattle out of Stevens Pass?

 

[AlanB]

BNSF reopened Stampede Pass sometime in the 1990s, I believe. However, I think in recent years they have stopped running through trains over it, so I'm not sure what condition it is in at this point.

If the tracks are inactive, that would pretty much rule it out.

Is there no way to go direct to Seattle out of Stevens Pass?

Based upon the track maps that I have, no.

BNSF has or had a line that cut off from the current EB route at Snohomish and runs down through Woodinville and then on down to the Renton area before tying into the line running between Seattle & Portland that the Cascades trains use. However, even assuming that they could then turn north at that junction to return to Seattle, it would be way out of the way. And in 2000 when this map was created, that route was unsignaled and FRA class 1 track. That would mean that they'd be operating the train at about 30 MPH at best, IIRC the speeds for that class track. Too tired to go look it up right now.

But otherwise I see no other tracks going anywhere near Stevens from Seattle.

 

[jmbgeg]

BNSF reopened Stampede Pass sometime in the 1990s, I believe. However, I think in recent years they have stopped running through trains over it, so I'm not sure what condition it is in at this point.

If the tracks are inactive, that would pretty much rule it out.

Is there no way to go direct to Seattle out of Stevens Pass?

Based upon the track maps that I have, no.

BNSF has or had a line that cut off from the current EB route at Snohomish and runs down through Woodinville and then on down to the Renton area before tying into the line running between Seattle & Portland that the Cascades trains use. However, even assuming that they could then turn north at that junction to return to Seattle, it would be way out of the way. And in 2000 when this map was created, that route was unsignaled and FRA class 1 track. That would mean that they'd be operating the train at about 30 MPH at best, IIRC the speeds for that class track. Too tired to go look it up right now.

But otherwise I see no other tracks going anywhere near Stevens from Seattle.

Oh well. It was worth floating the hypothetical. Thanks for taking the time to lay out the facts.

 

[jmbgeg]

BNSF reopened Stampede Pass sometime in the 1990s, I believe. However, I think in recent years they have stopped running through trains over it, so I'm not sure what condition it is in at this point.

If the tracks are inactive, that would pretty much rule it out.

Is there no way to go direct to Seattle out of Stevens Pass?

Based upon the track maps that I have, no.

BNSF has or had a line that cut off from the current EB route at Snohomish and runs down through Woodinville and then on down to the Renton area before tying into the line running between Seattle & Portland that the Cascades trains use. However, even assuming that they could then turn north at that junction to return to Seattle, it would be way out of the way. And in 2000 when this map was created, that route was unsignaled and FRA class 1 track. That would mean that they'd be operating the train at about 30 MPH at best, IIRC the speeds for that class track. Too tired to go loop it up right now.

But otherwise I see no other tracks going anywhere near Stevens from Seattle.

30 mudslides in 24 hours???

http://www.khq.com/Global/story.asp?S=14251945

 

[fairviewroad]

30 mudslides in 24 hours???

http://www.khq.com/G....asp?S=14251945

Yikes.

Well, at some point won't all the mud have slid down the hill? I mean, I assume no one

is hauling that loose mud back to the top, right?

 

[steamer]

Why not just end the route in Everett during the months of December thru March? Is there a way to turn the train in Everett? I suppose the turn around crew (maintenance and cleaning etc.) would have to relocate to Everett for the duration.

 

[zephyr17]

BNSF reopened Stampede Pass sometime in the 1990s, I believe. However, I think in recent years they have stopped running through trains over it, so I'm not sure what condition it is in at this point.

If the tracks are inactive, that would pretty much rule it out.

Is there no way to go direct to Seattle out of Stevens Pass?

It is ON the direct rail route. The former GN, current BNSF, mainline. There is no other route. I seriously doubt that a brand-new passenger route would be built.

Stampede Pass is active, although with light traffic. It comes with its own set of problems. However, there has been periodic talk of running it via Stampede, as, at least prior to the current economic situation, Stevens was pretty close to capacity, and putting Amtrak on Stampede was at least an option. However, note that the Spokane-Seattle route of the ex-NP is longer and the train would run via Ellensburg, Yakima and Pasco, taking a long dip to the south.

While there are some slides almost every winter, this winter has been unusually bad. There are not normally anywhere near this many service interruptions.

 

[zephyr17]

BNSF reopened Stampede Pass sometime in the 1990s, I believe. However, I think in recent years they have stopped running through trains over it, so I'm not sure what condition it is in at this point.

If the tracks are inactive, that would pretty much rule it out.

Is there no way to go direct to Seattle out of Stevens Pass?

Based upon the track maps that I have, no.

BNSF has or had a line that cut off from the current EB route at Snohomish and runs down through Woodinville and then on down to the Renton area before tying into the line running between Seattle & Portland that the Cascades trains use. However, even assuming that they could then turn north at that junction to return to Seattle, it would be way out of the way. And in 2000 when this map was created, that route was unsignaled and FRA class 1 track. That would mean that they'd be operating the train at about 30 MPH at best, IIRC the speeds for that class track. Too tired to go look it up right now.

But otherwise I see no other tracks going anywhere near Stevens from Seattle.

Oh well. It was worth floating the hypothetical. Thanks for taking the time to lay out the facts.

That line was physically cut about 2 years ago between Renton and Bellevue when they removed the Willburton Tunnel on I-405 in order to widen 405. BTW-the removal of the line ended the Washington Dinner Train that ran between Renton and the Chateau St Michelle winery in Woodinville.

 

[the_traveler]

30 mudslides in 24 hours???

http://www.khq.com/G....asp?S=14251945

Yikes.

Well, at some point won't all the mud have slid down the hill? I mean, I assume no one

is hauling that loose mud back to the top, right?

I guess my secret is out now!

 

[JayPea]

Stampede Pass is in use again by the BNSF. I don't know what improvements it would take, if any, for at least temporary use for the Empire Builder.

 

[zephyr17]

Stampede Pass is in use again by the BNSF. I don't know what improvements it would take, if any, for at least temporary use for the Empire Builder.

Wouldn't need any in terms of the track. It is well maintained and in good shape. It is DTC dispatched with CTC islands, and the summit tunnel's floor was dropped so it can accomodate double-stacks, and so can easily accomodate Superliners, although I am pretty sure it did before they modified the tunnel. It sure accomodated domes, and Superliners have the same profile requirements.

No passenger facilities anymore at Yakima or Ellensburg if they wanted to stop there. Otherwise, they could run Stampede tomorrow if they wanted to.

 

[GG-1]

Aloha

There is another option to stopping the mud slides .... convince the north west Indians to do fewer rain dances.

 

[zephyr17]

Aloha

There is another option to stopping the mud slides .... convince the north west Indians to do fewer rain dances.

I don't think NW Indians did a whole lot of rain dances..."make it STOP" dances were more likely...

 

[EB_OBS]

30 mudslides in 24 hours???

http://www.khq.com/G....asp?S=14251945

Yikes.

Well, at some point won't all the mud have slid down the hill? I mean, I assume no one

is hauling that loose mud back to the top, right?

Currently, I think it's up to 36 blocking events. Crazy!

 

[D T Nelson]

Stampede Pass is in use again by the BNSF. I don't know what improvements it would take, if any, for at least temporary use for the Empire Builder.

... and the summit tunnel's floor was dropped so it can accomodate double-stacks ...

When was that done? The last I heard (12 or so months ago, from a member of the Seattle Port Commission) the tunnel would not yet accommodate double-stacks. And googling to find out about it, I can find discussions from about ten years ago of a plan to lower the floor, that was not done, and more recent statements from the railroad and the State about plans to crown-cut the tunnel, but nothing about either floor-lowering or crown-cutting having yet been done.

 

[MrEd]

Meanwhile, state rail officials are seeking $10 million for an environmental impact study as a precursor to construction on mudslide-prevention measures. State rail officials have identified about 60 areas along the 466-mile corridor between Eugene, Ore., and Vancouver, B.C., that are considered most vulnerable. Click here for a map of known slide areas. http://wsdotblog.blogspot.com/2011/02/frustrated-with-mudslides-along-amtrak.html

 

[jmbgeg]

Meanwhile, state rail officials are seeking $10 million for an environmental impact study as a precursor to construction on mudslide-prevention measures. State rail officials have identified about 60 areas along the 466-mile corridor between Eugene, Ore., and Vancouver, B.C., that are considered most vulnerable. Click here for a map of known slide areas. http://wsdotblog.blogspot.com/2011/02/frustrated-with-mudslides-along-amtrak.html

The WSDOT release on mudslides is very well done. People who read this thread should read this WSDOT link.

Two problems that I see. $10 million just for the EIS? give me a break? Not likely to see federal or state funds approved for that anytime soon. Second, if a plan is proposed to modify the hillsides, expect the Puget Sound environmental community to pop up (like a jack in the box) and impede the process.

If the EIS alone would be $10 million, imagine what the construction cost might be.

 

[fairviewroad]

ANOTHER ONE! Yeesh.

No word about this on the main Amtrak page, naturally...but the Amtrak Cascades F/B page reports:

Amtrak Cascades More mudslides = more disruptions. Another mudslide in Everett area has extended the moratorium between Seattle and Vancouver, B.C., until Friday afternoon, March 18. Call 1-800-USA-RAIL for more information. Sorry folks!

However, they also report that:

Amtrak Cascades Cross your fingers - Seattle to Portland train service should resume at 3:00 p.m. today (March 16) barring anymore mudslides. Call 1-800-USA-RAIL for more information.

 

[Trogdor]

There are some pictures on that page that should make it pretty obvious why you don't want passenger trains running when there is a threat of mudslides.

 

[ThayerATM]

BNSF reopened Stampede Pass sometime in the 1990s, I believe. However, I think in recent years they have stopped running through trains over it, so I'm not sure what condition it is in at this point.

If the tracks are inactive, that would pretty much rule it out.

Is there no way to go direct to Seattle out of Stevens Pass?

While there are some slides almost every winter, this winter has been unusually bad. There are not normally anywhere near this many service interruptions.

You're a master of understatement. :lol: This has been a horrible winter for Amtrak anywhere north of, or east of Oklahoma. :wacko: