St. Paul, Milwaukee, Chicago (TCMC) second daily service

[Metra Electric Rider]

Exciting developments - this should be a big deal for ridership in the upper midwest!

 

[Roomette11]

What? Run mile long passenger trains?

Of course not! .

Precision — Be precise.
Scheduled — Run on schedule.

Just my sarcastic way of saying that the host railroads call their operating strategy something that they choose not to apply to Amtrak trains.

Relatively small padding yes.

That was my point.

Schedule padding is ubiquitous in transportation. United’s EWR-SFO schedule, for example, has several flights each day. Most have slightly different lengths due to their expectations at different times of the day. When they arrive “early”, it reflects a lack of typical unfavorable conditions (winds, traffic at either endpoint, etc). They didn’t use the padding.

Amtrak schedules have excessive padding on most routes. It is a reflection of the complete absence of control that Amtrak has over most of its routes. Must be terribly frustrating for the employees — to both create those slower-than-you’d-like-them-to-be schedules and to fail to meet the passengers’ expectations that those schedules set.

 

[jis]

My point was padding, well actually the schedule has to be based on a reality that a service provider (host railroads) and consumer (Amtrak) can agree upon and sincerely work towards. That situation is currently not found in the US for myriads of reasons to quite an extent non-technical. Until that happens it is not possible to get reasonably predictable operating schedules. Rest is just whistling in the wind and posturing IMHO

 

[Septa9739]

I actually am optimistic about the timekeeping possibilities. The Empire Builder seems to very rarely incur significant delays between MSP and CHI. I also imagine there will be a considerable pad at Milwaukee just to make sure. There’s also seemingly considerably more regulatory pressure on new service since there’s no quibbling about the viability of existing schedules.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

I actually am optimistic about the timekeeping possibilities. The Empire Builder seems to very rarely incur significant delays between MSP and CHI. I also imagine there will be a considerable pad at Milwaukee just to make sure. There’s also seemingly considerably more regulatory pressure on new service since there’s no quibbling about the viability of existing schedules.

And no mountain passes or bears on the tracks to impede traffic!

 

[Chris I]

We're looking at taking the EB out to Chicago either later this year, or next year, so I'm glad to see a second daily option from the Twin Cities. We would really like to do a stopover at St. Paul, as we have never visited the upper Midwest, but the single daily train had me a bit nervous about the connection. I hate having to rely on a single run per day. It looks like this will also give us a later option to depart St. Paul.

I'm assuming the equipment will be the new Venture cars?

 

[danasgoodstuff]

We're looking at taking the EB out to Chicago either later this year, or next year, so I'm glad to see a second daily option from the Twin Cities. We would really like to do a stopover at St. Paul, as we have never visited the upper Midwest, but the single daily train had me a bit nervous about the connection. I hate having to rely on a single run per day. It looks like this will also give us a later option to depart St. Paul.

I'm assuming the equipment will be the new Venture cars?

There's plenty to see and do in the Twin Cities

St. Paul City Hall is only a few blocks from Union Station.

 

[Amtrak25]

I don't think Minnesota bought into the Venture/Corridor Charger multi-state consortium, so I would assume a P42 and Horizons, of which a couple of dozen many are stashed in Chicago and Beech Grove. Judging by the comments on the Venture seats, just as well.

 

[Septa9739]

Starting Annual ridership is projected to be 124k. I’d like to call that estimate low and project 175k. 124k is along the lines of the Vermonter or Ethan Allen. I think this run is more comparable to the Pennsylvanian which consistently tops 200k, or else the Palmetto before it took accomodated intra-NEC traffic, which was usually just under 200k. I think the Lynchburg Regional effect will come into play. This is a more reliable duplication of a service that is capacity constrained and not perfectly reliable, suggesting significant undercounted pent up demand. PMT will also likely increase on the Empire Builder.

 

[TransitTyrant]

I don't think Minnesota bought into the Venture/Corridor Charger multi-state consortium, so I would assume a P42 and Horizons, of which a couple of dozen many are stashed in Chicago and Beech Grove. Judging by the comments on the Venture seats, just as well.

Minnesota will be purchasing Venture cars at least and will likely add them to the Midwest pool. The NXL which could get funding soon would also use Chargers and Ventures.

 

[John Bredin]

At least one of the trainsets being used right now for the Hiawatha has Horizon or Amfleet coaches and an Amfleet cafe-business car, though the Hiawatha has neither business class nor food service. Since it's always been said the new service would be an extended Hiawatha (not a new MKE-CHI frequency), I'm presuming that's what's going to be used when Great River service begins.

I would be very surprised if the Great River isn't run with Ventures eventually, but I'd also be pleasantly surprised if it starts with Ventures. Of course, if Venture coaches start showing up routinely on the Hiawatha in the next couple months, I reserve the right to change my mind.

 

[Amtrak25]

The cafe car is probably there for its WiFI base unit since a Cabbage-40 was not there, has nothing to do with a St Paul extension.

 

[diesteldorf]

EDIT: Thanks to the MODS for moving my post to the already existing thread....

Amtrak is working with Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Illinois to run another train running between Minneapolis and Chicago. It'll take the place of one of the existing Hiawatha routes.

I've heard some people speculate that it will start as early as this summer, but I'm next expecting anything till 2024.

https://www.wxow.com/news/second-am...cle_87c5e8c0-bc6c-11ed-a254-bbbb2c365f0b.html
https://apnews.com/article/wi-state...trak-st-paul-d449e984dfa8c245c64b67e70e322b9d
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news...mtrak-line-could-start-this-year/69940025007/
I don't expect any additional information until service begins, but if anyone knows of the projected timetable, feel free to send me a PM.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

EDIT: Thanks to the MODS for moving my post to the already existing thread....

New mod, new way to keep the order.
Makes it hard to see new events with out going thur multiple pages.

Thanks for the post. It did draw my attention to this.

 

[diesteldorf]

New mod, new way to keep the order.
Makes it hard to see new events with out going thur multiple pages.

Thanks for the post. It did draw my attention to this.

I was glad you moved it, as I enjoyed reading prior posts from 2021-22.
Delta made the decision to end all flights to and from La Crosse to Minneapolis as of June 4.

I've seen a couple local news posts telling people that this new train will start as early as summer, to make up for the discontinued flights. However, I think that's being too optimistic.

I would think the new timetable would still want to leave MSP/Chicago at a reasonable hour. It would make sense if the new train left MSP in early afternoon, a few hours after EB 8/28, so that it could arrive in Chicago before 9:00-10:00 PM. Since, #7/27 already leaves Chicago around 3:00 PM, having an earlier departure in the morning could be beneficial to those that want to arrive in Minneapolis by late afternoon/early evening.

 

[Kramerica]

Projected timetable, from Wikipedia:

"The Great River train will make 13 total stops from Chicago to St. Paul. Westbound, the journey will take 7 hours and 11 minutes, while it will take 7 hours 27 minutes eastbound. Each direction, the train will have a 5 minute long stop in Milwaukee.

The train will be not be a completely new service, but will rather extend an existing Hiawatha Service train from Milwaukee to St. Paul and back. The trains that will be extended are numbers 333 and 340, with train 333 departing Chicago at 11:05am and train 340 arriving in Chicago at 7:14pm."

 

[Silophant]

The Wisconsin DOT sent out an update a couple weeks ago with the following schedule. It didn't give an exact date, but showed the start of service being in summer or fall 2023, consistent with the plan to start in FY 2023 mentioned upthread a bit.

 

[NorthShore]

I haven't noticed, or maybe I forgot, but will there be the addition of a cafe car for these extended runs?

 

[diesteldorf]

The Wisconsin DOT sent out an update a couple weeks ago with the following schedule. It didn't give an exact date, but showed the start of service being in summer or fall 2023, consistent with the plan to start in FY 2023 mentioned upthread a bit.
View attachment 32007

Thank you so much for posting!! The new times look great, arriving/departing Chicago early enough to still make connections with the CONO, Lakeshore, Metra trains to and from the Chicago suburbs. RAILFANLNK used to joke about how he always had to wake up at 0'DarkThirty if he ever wanted to catch the Zephyr to or from Lincoln, Nebraska.

I am so spoiled, and, as much as I love the EB, would probably favor the Great River train primarily because of the scheduling, and, presumably, the increased on-time performance.

 

[Steve's Wanderlust]

Given the likelihood of train 8 being late eastbound I hope the states & CP have a realistic view about the need for sidings being available. For the mornings that 8 runs two-plus hours late an 11 o'clock hour eastbound departure for the new train out of STP would put two passenger trains occupying the freight route in relative proximity.

Such is why I would prefer an afternoon departure from STP, my main layover point (ie. where I'm presently living). I'm still glad for a predictable eastbound departure at any hour.

 

[Mr.Technician]

Given the likelihood of train 8 being late eastbound I hope the states & CP have a realistic view about the need for sidings being available. For the mornings that 8 runs two-plus hours late an 11 o'clock hour eastbound departure for the new train out of STP would put two passenger trains occupying the freight route in relative proximity.

Such is why I would prefer an afternoon departure from STP, my main layover point (ie. where I'm presently living). I'm still glad for a predictable eastbound departure at any hour.

As someone who is riding from MSP to CHI in a couple of weeks I would much prefer the predictable schedule above to the possibility of a late 8. At least in my case, the Metra train I will be connecting with (BNSF line) runs until after midnight.

I will miss the SSL and it might prompt me to take 7 westbound even if I take the new train eastbound.

 

[west point]

IMHO It would seem that Amtrak should start service as son as possible by getting crews and equipment available. Go to CPKCS and negotiate final schedule but say these are the initial times. Then as the planned improvements complete make shorter times feasible then initiate them.

But this would give Amtrak a great publicity opportunity to say hey we have reduced the time 30 minutes from CHI <> MSP. Then another announcement maybe 3 months later announce as the planned improvements have been completed we have reduced the times by another 30 minutes. NC certainly has promoted its shorter times to the piedmont's advantage.

 

[Steve's Wanderlust]

As someone who is riding from MSP to CHI in a couple of weeks I would much prefer the predictable schedule above to the possibility of a late 8. At least in my case, the Metra train I will be connecting with (BNSF line) runs until after midnight.

I will miss the SSL and it might prompt me to take 7 westbound even if I take the new train eastbound.

Agreed. I've recently been taken to utilizing Sun Country's daily evening flight to ORD to ensure predictable departures on my trips. I'd rather burn my first vacation day on the Milwaukee Road with dinner and evening strolls on the north side after.

 

[WWW]

Some how I don't picture that 2nd train consist of a double stack superliner - it is not as if it was a long haul train needing sleeping accommodations.
More of a speedy metro commuter train from MSP to Chicago (Milwaukee). On the same note where is Amtrak going to get another double stack
Superliner train set unless replacing one of the other long haul trains with a new set of wheels (not in the budget !)
I am picturing the consist being a short train set of locomotive - baggage - 3-4 coach (one with business seating) cars and a diner/snack car.
If need be throw a View Liner Sleeper on the end. This 2nd train set should be short enough to slip into any siding to make ease of movement
around the long freight trains. - Not my job to run the train or blow the horn but should it jump the track guess who catches the blame !

All this predicated on running the train late morning early afternoon.
Running later in the evening then there would be justification for the Sleepers.
Early am too much conflict with the scheduled #8 -

AND then the return trip from Chicago to MSP -
Definitely a morning trip to avoid conflict with the (late) evening #7

BUT still yet the connection conflict with the Chief and the Zephyr and other east bound trains.
Unless the rails are worked on to allow high speed rail the connection issue may be mute.

Then the possibility of connection with the NorthStar Duluth service -

When the airlines beat the train city-center-to-city-center if is time to rethink the travel equation !

 

[Steve4031]

The schedule going to MSP almost mirrors the old schedule of 7 which used to depart Chicago around 11 a.m. in the late '70s early 80's. I did a few round trips as a middle school student. I enjoyed eating lunch in the diner on the way to Milwaukee and riding a turboliner back.