Metra Electric Rider
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Will be interesting to see since the floodwaters look to be going through multiple river systems and may take some time to hit the Mississippi.
St. Paul, Milwaukee, Chicago (TCMC) second daily service
- Thread starter MARC Rider
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TransitTyrant
Lead Service Attendant
First mention of a second potential RT.
https://x.com/gretakaul/status/1805615740562649363?s=46&t=oxytMqv56nm5Wbe4krGOXg
https://x.com/gretakaul/status/1805615740562649363?s=46&t=oxytMqv56nm5Wbe4krGOXg
Metra Electric Rider
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That was quick!
It's great to see this being mentioned by county elected officials + in the media, but of course, we here at AU know that it's not possible to add another daily train in the nearest term, at least not until a number of things (the original construction projects funded as part of the TCMC, construction in the Milwaukee area, also an additional Hiawatha trip first + additional construction (?)) happen first! Not to mention the funding that would be needed from the participating states, namely Minnesota. If MN Democrats lose the state senate this fall, it will unfortunately be a true "battle royale" to even fund the Borealis moving forward, much less do what's needed to further the development of the Northern Lights Express (NLX) to Duluth, MN.
This isn't to say that the Ramsey County board chair is "wrong," per se--Amtrak in a general since has been open to additional Borealis frequencies and Wisconsin has been awarded Corridor ID funds to study this. However, it's giving premature hope to drum up excitement via saying things like "Amtrak is considering another daily train," as if they have the rolling stock and general ability to add another frequency to this corridor later this year or next year! They can't even get the Borealis to run on time yet due to the Columbus construction, freight rail interference, and other issues. Gotta get the first Borealis frequency in a good place first!
This isn't to say that the Ramsey County board chair is "wrong," per se--Amtrak in a general since has been open to additional Borealis frequencies and Wisconsin has been awarded Corridor ID funds to study this. However, it's giving premature hope to drum up excitement via saying things like "Amtrak is considering another daily train," as if they have the rolling stock and general ability to add another frequency to this corridor later this year or next year! They can't even get the Borealis to run on time yet due to the Columbus construction, freight rail interference, and other issues. Gotta get the first Borealis frequency in a good place first!
TransitTyrant
Lead Service Attendant
No one is claiming the second frequency would start soon but Amtrak already has the ability to add a second train to the corridor once the projects around La Crosse are finished.
On another note - - -
With the present operation - any stations being upgraded to handle two trains simultaneously ?
With the common LATE '8' mixing with 1333 & 1340 and an infrequent '7' things are going to get
rather messy with a station only able to handle "One-at-a-Time" ?
True! Problem is that people end up taking the above statements as a promise of another frequency happening quickly. In the Minnesota context, there's a history of over-promising on passenger rail + timelines, and I don't want people to get overly excited and then crestfallen + angry when there's not a new frequency in the near future (leading to decrease support + increased cynicism). Rhetoric aside, it's news to me that Amtrak has the ability to add a second train once the Winona and LaCrosse projects are done. What about the Milwaukee Airport project or the Muskego Yard bypass? Some have also claimed that at least one additional Hiawatha frequency is needed before a 2nd Borealis trip could start. It's good news if that's not the case!
At any rate, regardless of Amtrak's *ability* to add a second train, it will take some doing with funding and inter-state coordination.
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TransitTyrant
Lead Service Attendant
The yard bypass and airport station should be done by 2027, possibly earlier. Yes it will require more Hiawathas but more are planned anyway. Rolling stock should be available from the Cascades once the Airos go into service too.
Cool, that's good to know. I had a vague idea that those projects would be done sometime the next ~3+ years but wasn't at all sure when. I've seen that the Airos are meant to enter service on the Cascades in 2026. So basically, if all goes well on all fronts, there could be a 2nd Borealis frequency beginning as soon as sometime in 2026, or maybe 2027. Hoping for less than 5 years at the worst; the interminable 12 year wait for the Borealis from initial studies to service was something else.
JamesWhitcombRiley
Lead Service Attendant
What I'm getting from this thread is that additional Hiawathas are likely, but an additional Borealis depends on Minnesota. A news story quoted up-thread has an Amtrak official saying the current Borealis could be Amfleet I's instead of Horizons, if Minnesota wants to pay a higher lease.
What exactly are people saying here about the current availability of Amfleet I's and Horizons? That's less clear, or I skimmed reading it.
Maybe the minimal Borealis (it's an extension of a Hiawatha, with Horizons, and only to St. Paul, and only once a day) was less risky, or more risky, for success than starting with something better, if that had been possible with the state. Maybe success is guaranteed. The confusion with the eastbound, generally late, Empire Builder is unfortunate. The fact that the service does not resemble idyllic Amtrak ads from the 1970s, well, the ridership is probably young enough not to know.
May be a (better) idea to extend the Borealis to St. Cloud possibly replacing one of the NorthStar commutes.
Since the Borealis is a push pull configuration WYEing of the consist is not a problem - - -
Although one detail needs to be worked out -
that transit connection from the Short Line through the S---L---O---W Commercial Rail yard - - -
Solution the BNSF Midway sub ? ? ?
The tracks are there - the possibilities also !
"OR"
pending the Duluth Northern Lights Express service other alternatives !
Since the Borealis is a push pull configuration WYEing of the consist is not a problem - - -
Although one detail needs to be worked out -
that transit connection from the Short Line through the S---L---O---W Commercial Rail yard - - -
Solution the BNSF Midway sub ? ? ?
The tracks are there - the possibilities also !
"OR"
pending the Duluth Northern Lights Express service other alternatives !
user535733
Train Attendant
A second Borealis (formerly TCMC) frequency was included among the FY22 Corridor ID selects. Lead organization is WisDOT (not Amtrak).
Years away, even with positive tweets.
Things slow down when governments are asked to write the subsidy check.
Years away, even with positive tweets.
Things slow down when governments are asked to write the subsidy check.
thefirewarde
Train Attendant
Unless somehow you can make the Borealis trainsets run two trips a day - great for equipment utilization, terrible for departure times - you need more equipment than is likely to be available before, say, 2027 when the Cascades have settled into their Airo consists. If there's a strong desire to use new equipment for the second frequency, then the wait might be 2029 or (based on current delays) longer. So by the time there's enough equipment for another daily frequency, there's actually time to EIS and do the infrastructure improvements it'll require.
I don't mean that delays are impossible or even unlikely, but I don't think we're likely to wait another twelve years. The Piedmont/Carolinian is managing about five years between additional frequencies, with a hefty side helping of corridor improvements (there's a chance Charlotte - Greensboro and Milwaukee - Chicago end up with the same number of daily trains, depending on who adds an additional frequency next) and the second Borealis seems likely to fall into a similar bucket, providing state support is maintained.
And speaking of state support, don't we get our first Borealis ridership numbers this July? I'm very curious how the Borealis and Empire Builder look post-launch.
I don't mean that delays are impossible or even unlikely, but I don't think we're likely to wait another twelve years. The Piedmont/Carolinian is managing about five years between additional frequencies, with a hefty side helping of corridor improvements (there's a chance Charlotte - Greensboro and Milwaukee - Chicago end up with the same number of daily trains, depending on who adds an additional frequency next) and the second Borealis seems likely to fall into a similar bucket, providing state support is maintained.
And speaking of state support, don't we get our first Borealis ridership numbers this July? I'm very curious how the Borealis and Empire Builder look post-launch.
Currently (if on time) the eastbound Empire Builder leaves St. Paul at 8:50 AM, arrives in Chicago at 4:45PM. The Borealis leaves at 11:50 AM and arrives in Chicago at 7:15 PM.
What would the third MSP-CHI train schedule look like? Leaving MSP at say 4:00 PM puts it into CHI at 1:00AM! Or are we talking about a “Second Section” Borealis leaving at 12:20 PM, a half hour after the “First Section”?
Personally, I’d like to see an overnight CHI-MSP train ala the MILW’s Pioneer Limited schedule, leaving at 10:30PM, arriving at 8:00AM (including sleeping cars). I’ll not at all hold my breath for that option from Amtrak though, LOL
What would the third MSP-CHI train schedule look like? Leaving MSP at say 4:00 PM puts it into CHI at 1:00AM! Or are we talking about a “Second Section” Borealis leaving at 12:20 PM, a half hour after the “First Section”?
Personally, I’d like to see an overnight CHI-MSP train ala the MILW’s Pioneer Limited schedule, leaving at 10:30PM, arriving at 8:00AM (including sleeping cars). I’ll not at all hold my breath for that option from Amtrak though, LOL
thefirewarde
Train Attendant
I think a sleeper/night train would need to wait for the new Amtrak sleeper/LD order. What about a 6:30 AM departure, arriving around 3:30? One goal would be to leave before the rush hour Hiawathas to leave capacity for longer distance fares. This is less optimized for full length travel but gives a much earlier option in both directions for a lot of the intermediate stations.
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
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It is possible to run overnight trains with good reclining seats. One need not wait for Sleepers.
Metra Electric Rider
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I don't see a problem with arriving in Chicago at 1 AM (it's even earlier in Milwaukee) - Chicago isn't a shuts down at midnight town (though the Loop gets pretty deserted these days). Plus it enables later departures from Milwaukee. I think the earlier departure option is good too.
moselman66
Service Attendant
Is there any fundemental reason the current Borealis could not operate with a 5th coach? I'm 100% in favor of an additonal local MSP-CHI-MSP trip but that could easily be a handful of years away even if the stars align. Obviously two additional coaches would be needed which might present a challenge, though apparently they were able to come up with a third Hiawatha set to operate the remaining disjointed Hiawatha schedule. I'd guess contractual amendments and perhaps some additional $$ would be needed, hopefully not a prohibitive cost increase. Any infrastructure issues such as overight in MSP? Woudl a 5th coach require additional onboard staff versus four?
I doubt it's a situation where CHI-MKE runs 95% full and then MKE-MSP runs 20% full but the danger of CHI-MKE being a pinch point definitely exists, and if St Paul ridership is as strong as implied it doesn't seem unreasonable to me to consider another coach, likely a far faster point of relief versus an additional frequency. Sold out trains are great in terms of demonstrating a big market exists, but it's bad for developing a market. Every customer turned away can easily think "I tried the train once but it was sold out" and dismiss it as a possibility going forward.
I doubt it's a situation where CHI-MKE runs 95% full and then MKE-MSP runs 20% full but the danger of CHI-MKE being a pinch point definitely exists, and if St Paul ridership is as strong as implied it doesn't seem unreasonable to me to consider another coach, likely a far faster point of relief versus an additional frequency. Sold out trains are great in terms of demonstrating a big market exists, but it's bad for developing a market. Every customer turned away can easily think "I tried the train once but it was sold out" and dismiss it as a possibility going forward.
I agree, adding more cars is the easy fix for increased capacity in teh short term. However, on my Borealis trip only one door was opened at most small intermediate station stops. This arose due to the limited crew; one Conductor and one Asst. Conductor, no coach attendants.
Everybody from the front and rear cars (including Business Class) had to move to the one center car to leave. Everyone boarding had to wait until everyone was off. The longer the train, the more problematic this becomes. An extra unaccounted 5-10 minutes per stop can quickly add up to problematic On-Time Performance.
During the busy season the Empire Builder often must double or triple spot to de-board passengers at short platform stations like Columbus or Wis. Dells, Red Wing.
A 6:00AM departure or a post-midnight arrival time may not take that much pressure off the uber-convenient mid-day departure. While Chicago may be open for business at 1:00 AM, I can guarantee St. Paul/MPLS is not, LOL!
Everybody from the front and rear cars (including Business Class) had to move to the one center car to leave. Everyone boarding had to wait until everyone was off. The longer the train, the more problematic this becomes. An extra unaccounted 5-10 minutes per stop can quickly add up to problematic On-Time Performance.
During the busy season the Empire Builder often must double or triple spot to de-board passengers at short platform stations like Columbus or Wis. Dells, Red Wing.
A 6:00AM departure or a post-midnight arrival time may not take that much pressure off the uber-convenient mid-day departure. While Chicago may be open for business at 1:00 AM, I can guarantee St. Paul/MPLS is not, LOL!
True, but are there aren't really any extra cars available with reclining seats at the moment, are there? If cars aren't available, I can't think that trying to get an overnight service on the CHI-MSP route would take less than 6 years to start given the need for new equipment.
All I ever hear is that there aren't enough Superliners, which, to my knowledge, are the only coaches Amtrak has with reclining seats suitable for overnight travel, unless I'm missing something. That said, I know that *many* MSP and CHI-based people are rather obsessed with the idea of a night train for a variety of reasons...
Thinking of the present schedule of the EB #8 and B #1340 arriving at Chicago town to make connections
This is what you have:
Major Connections to:
South ---
Texas Eagle #21 - 1:50pm NO-X
NOLA #59 - 8:05pm
West ---
Zephyr #5 - 2:00pm NO-X
Chief #3 - 2:50pm NO-X
East ---
Cardinal #50 - 5:55pm critical EB - NO-B
Capitol #30 - 6:40pm critical EB - NO-B
LSL #48 - 9:30PM
This is what you have:
Major Connections to:
South ---
Texas Eagle #21 - 1:50pm NO-X
NOLA #59 - 8:05pm
West ---
Zephyr #5 - 2:00pm NO-X
Chief #3 - 2:50pm NO-X
East ---
Cardinal #50 - 5:55pm critical EB - NO-B
Capitol #30 - 6:40pm critical EB - NO-B
LSL #48 - 9:30PM
5am out of MSP? That's early but it could make the afternoon LD connections. Not sure what the train out of CHI would have for a departure time.
user535733
Train Attendant
The WisDOT Rail Manager addressed exactly this question in April from WisARP.
Their answer: More coaches can be added if the average demand calls for it. WisDOT's intent was to monitor like they already monitor Hiawatha Service average loads.
With all the discussion of the afternoon long-distance connections (a favored and warranted complaint for MSP people), I'd much rather get a train running from MSP - Kansas City (in MN state rail plan), with an eventual MSP - San Antonio (or Houston) long-distance train as discussed in the FRA study to connect to the Zephyr and Chief. Still having to go the wrong direction to go west is putting lipstick on a pig, as far as travel time and convenience goes. Would be much better to go south first and connect in Iowa and KC and then go west!
Anyway, given how a 5 a.m. departure from MSP would rankle some due to being at a "zero dark thirty" inconvenient time, if the goal is meeting the westbound long-distance trains in Chicago, I support adding an overnight Borealis as discussed earlier in this thread. The night train option both gets people in for the western trains, and serves all those who don't want to "waste a day" (as I so commonly see it called) on the train between MSP and CHI. As for me, I love working on the train and spending the day on a train generally, but that's definitely not the case for everyone!
Anyway, given how a 5 a.m. departure from MSP would rankle some due to being at a "zero dark thirty" inconvenient time, if the goal is meeting the westbound long-distance trains in Chicago, I support adding an overnight Borealis as discussed earlier in this thread. The night train option both gets people in for the western trains, and serves all those who don't want to "waste a day" (as I so commonly see it called) on the train between MSP and CHI. As for me, I love working on the train and spending the day on a train generally, but that's definitely not the case for everyone!
