Texas High Speed Rail

[neroden]

Seems to me that if you want something like this to succeed (in Texas, anyway), you need to but all of the land secretly (using dummy corporations or something), the way Walt Disney did in Central Florida, and not announce any plans about the location of your route until all of the land has been acquired.

This is how the Loop was built in Chicago. Shell corporations set up to acquire the rights. There was one which was set up just to acquire *one block*.

However, environmental clearances required publishing the route for Texas Central.

 

[jis]

This is how the Loop was built in Chicago. Shell corporations set up to acquire the rights. There was one which was set up just to acquire *one block*.

However, environmental clearances required publishing the route for Texas Central.

I suspect that this may be one reason that Brightline has been trying to stick to highway RoWs wherever they can. It just is easier to get through EISs, though sometimes even that does not totally avoid problems. Witness the SR 417 shenanigans between OIA and WDW.

Texas Central by its very nature and the nature of the state in which it is trying to make progress admittedly has a much bigger potential problem in that they don't have the tacit bipartisan approval from the state leadership for admittedly possibly somewhat dubious to bizarre reasons. But I guess at this point they'd take support in whatever form it comes for whatever reason.

 

[user 1215]

Not only has this thread stagnated, but it seems like the TCR progress has stalled... Anything new to report from anyone?

 

[frequentflyer]

Nope, nothing to report and its looking like the Texas Supreme Court will rule against them in June.

Someone explain to me why TCR cannot use the electrical line ROW? TCR looks to shaky financial wise too. Why shoot for the moon with the Japan Rail system, why not use a slower cheaper system? Hard to take people serious when they state they want HSR and have no sound financial plan.

 

[AlamoWye]

Today, June 24, the Texas Supreme Court decided that Texas Central Railway is indeed a railroad under Texas law and has eminent domain authority. However, the railroad is in arrears in property taxes and its CEO has resigned. Quite confusing what might happen next.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Hard to take people serious when they state they want HSR and have no sound financial plan.

Private funding was supposed to be the solution for why Americans cannot have clean and efficient transportation. Meanwhile CAHSR shows actual progress.

Why shoot for the moon with the Japan Rail system, why not use a slower cheaper system?

We already have a slower cheaper system and most Texans have shown no interest in using it.

Nope, nothing to report and its looking like the Texas Supreme Court will rule against them in June.

Three for three on this post.

 

[frequentflyer]

1. CAHSR is your standard bearer for a High Speed Rail project? Liberal Californians have cooled on the project and they are footing the bill.

2. Shocked, really shocked they won the Texas Supreme Court ruling, but it may be a moot point anyway. Time for Texas Central to show the money. Wasn't that the reason for going with JNR?

Despite the ruling got a feeling we have seen the last of Texas Central. I would love to be wrong.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

1. CAHSR is your standard bearer for a High Speed Rail project?

I never said anything about standard bearing but if I had to pick I'd probably choose the project with actual infrastructure. Since you chose to bring it up what is your standard bearer for HSR in the US?

2. Shocked, really shocked they won the Texas Supreme Court ruling, but it may be a moot point anyway.

You're shocked that a brand new railroad can be granted permission to buy land before laying track? I would have been shocked if the court could have penned a coherent counterpoint.

Time for Texas Central to show the money. Wasn't that the reason for going with JNR? Despite the ruling got a feeling we have seen the last of Texas Central. I would love to be wrong.

You're just all over the place with these remarks. If you actually support Texas Central why do your posts sound like they long for the day that it's finally killed off for good?

 

[Ziv]

Today, June 24, the Texas Supreme Court decided that Texas Central Railway is indeed a railroad under Texas law and has eminent domain authority. However, the railroad is in arrears in property taxes and its CEO has resigned. Quite confusing what might happen next.

Good news on the court decision. Not so good on the lack of financing options.
This may be a bridge too far, but would BrightLine be considering taking this over?
Are there other players that might be interested in getting a foothold in the North American passenger rail business? Like JR Group? Yeah, it is a longshot...
But JR Texas has a certain sound to it! LOL!

 

[BlackDiamond]

This may be a bridge too far, but would BrightLine be considering taking this over?

Brightline has a lot on its plate already especially if they are doing the LA to Las Vegas line as well as what they are building in FL.

 

[frequentflyer]

I never said anything about standard bearing but if I had to pick I'd probably choose the project with actual infrastructure. Since you chose to bring it up what is your standard bearer for HSR in the US?


You're shocked that a brand new railroad can be granted permission to buy land before laying track? I would have been shocked if the court could have penned a coherent counterpoint.


You're just all over the place with these remarks. If you actually support Texas Central why do your posts sound like they long for the day that it's finally killed off for good?

I have followed this project very closely really hoping it would come to fruition. Having lived through the DFW-Houston HSR project in the 90s that was killed by SWA. This time around SWA gave the project its blessing and the Governor got behind the project. A nice website and fancy plans to build stations in Dallas and NW Houston (still don't get that one). Throughout all of the hype, details on financing were scarce and now with the opportunity to start the CEO leaves. Giving credence what the critics have stated from day one. Sad, because there is business case for HSR between DFW-HOU, shame no one can close the case.

As regards CAHSR, sad that a state that wanted HSR has so badly ruined this project and future HSR projects to come.

 

[west point]

Unexplained resignations are always suspicious. One company I was at an employee had an incident where he just did not feel well and said he could not function. 2 weeks later resigned moddle of day. Lots of speculation about illegal medication. Was dead in 6 weeks of a brain tumor not found until resigned. Spent last days as you can guess.

Another person was skiing with some I knew. Good skier but told everyone he needed to go back to Hotel before noon. Dead in 2weeks after resigning in 1 week.

 

[zetharion]

If Texas Central uses eminent domain and seizes all the land then goes belly up, do they get to auction off the land they seized? By my nature I am always 100% cynical when it comes to for profit entities using eminent domain to take land to build their for profit ventures. I assume they take the land at less than actual value since Texas is very business friendly. Is there any wording on how much of it they can take on either side of the tracks so build out shops and such?

Dont get me wrong I am all for new rail networks but taking someones land comes at a real cost.

 

[Charles785]

First of all with passenger rail I will admit to a strong bias in favor of overnight conventional long distance trains with full dining cars. And of course these trains can also serve short distance passengers wanting to travel between any city pairs along the route.

So, what I'm wondering, if there are too many obstacles for this Texas Railway project to actually be developed could the focus return to, say, something like the former Chicago to Galveston Sana Fe Texas Chief (later the Amtrak Lone Star) that would be configured to serve Dallas (maybe including some suburbs and Denton) and serve passengers all along the route including Dallas to Houston commuters?

Now I know there's some hostility with Amtrak management and their board of directors toward the long distance service but after all, the original Amtrak mandate was to create a national inter-city system. So obviously Amtrak would need pressure from Congressional representatives and senators from Illinois, Missouri, Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas to create a route like this.

Politically, could this approach be more feasible than that Texas Railway project? I do know that in 2018 Congressional pressure was brought to bear on getting Amtrak to back away from their terrible idea of breaking up the Southwest Chief route with a bus bridge from western Kansas to Albuquerque.

Oh - another bias of mine, because I live in Kansas, would be that a route like this would return Amtrak service to Wichita

 

[jis]

It should be noted that Texas Central and Amtrak LD service are not competing for the same funds, so what happens to one has very little effect on the other directly. They also do not have any direct management link. In other words, it is not really an either/or proposition. At present Congress has to act to facilitate any addition of new LD service. Without their specific intevention, it is quite unlikely that any new LD train will get added in the near future. Congress is not a party to anything that Texas Central does at present IIRC.

 

[MARC Rider]

If Texas Central uses eminent domain and seizes all the land then goes belly up, do they get to auction off the land they seized? By my nature I am always 100% cynical when it comes to for profit entities using eminent domain to take land to build their for profit ventures. I assume they take the land at less than actual value since Texas is very business friendly. Is there any wording on how much of it they can take on either side of the tracks so build out shops and such?

Texas might be "business friendly," but they also have a fundamentalist faith in the sanctity of "private property." Thus, unless there is actual bribery of the judge(s) overseeing the eminent domain proceedings (which I suppose is possible in theory, but we don't even know who the judges would be), I don't think that Texas Central would be able to buy the land at less than its actual market value.

If Texas Central goes "belly up," it can do so in two ways. The first would be chapter 11, in which the company is reorganized, debts are paid off at some fraction of their value, and the company continues to (attempt) to do business. The other way is Chapter 7, in which the company stops doing business and whatever assets it has are sold off (liquidated) in order to pay the outstanding debts. If the company was able to buy land and it went into chapter 11, it would presumably keep the land and continue to build the railway, now freed from past debts. If the company went into chapter 7, I suppose the bankruptcy trustees would want to sell the land for as much as they could in order to maximize the cash on hand to pay debts.

 

[MikefromCrete]

First of all with passenger rail I will admit to a strong bias in favor of overnight conventional long distance trains with full dining cars. And of course these trains can also serve short distance passengers wanting to travel between any city pairs along the route.

So, what I'm wondering, if there are too many obstacles for this Texas Railway project to actually be developed could the focus return to, say, something like the former Chicago to Galveston Sana Fe Texas Chief (later the Amtrak Lone Star) that would be configured to serve Dallas (maybe including some suburbs and Denton) and serve passengers all along the route including Dallas to Houston commuters?

Now I know there's some hostility with Amtrak management and their board of directors toward the long distance service but after all, the original Amtrak mandate was to create a national inter-city system. So obviously Amtrak would need pressure from Congressional representatives and senators from Illinois, Missouri, Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas to create a route like this.

Politically, could this approach be more feasible than that Texas Railway project? I do know that in 2018 Congressional pressure was brought to bear on getting Amtrak to back away from their terrible idea of breaking up the Southwest Chief route with a bus bridge from western Kansas to Albuquerque.

Oh - another bias of mine, because I live in Kansas, would be that a route like this would return Amtrak service to Wichita

A high density high speed frequent service between two huge metropolitan areas and a single long distance train meanadering between two places thousands of miles apart are not compatible. Texas Central would tap a large market of people traveling between two metropolitan areas. High speed and high density would attract people who might otherwise fly or drive. An LD train, traveling at 79 miles per hour would not attract a large number of people, no matter how nice the dining car might be. There's a place for both high speed and regular ID trains, but one can't substitute for the other.

 

[John Bredin]

1. CAHSR is your standard bearer for a High Speed Rail project?

Of course it's the standard bearer: just like standard bearers in pre-WWI armies, it's been constantly harried and shot at by its enemies to prevent it going forward.

Has it had real issues? Yes. But IMHO opponents have repeatedly and grossly exaggerated them in an effort to make it out to be a boondoggle. Is is expensive? Yes, but building in earthquake-prone areas is never cheap, and highways have to face many of the same costs. It arguably started "in the middle of nowhere" but (1) that section would have to be built at some point, and (2) one of the key "shoulda started there" segments -- entry to San Francisco -- is happening with Caltrain electrification.

Ultimately, lots of projects get brickbats when they're being built, because all the costs are there but the benefits (except design & construction jobs) aren't there yet. I know Millennium Park in Chicago was the target of endless criticism until it opened, and indeed it was late (not open for the actual millennium) and over budget, but almost nobody regrets it once it opened -- or that the organizers shifted mid-stream from bland neoclassical design to more innovative designs. More particular to California, there was a lot of skepticism and naysaying about the now-beloved Golden Gate Bridge.

 

[George Harris]

Texas might be "business friendly," but they also have a fundamentalist faith in the sanctity of "private property." Thus, unless there is actual bribery of the judge(s) overseeing the eminent domain proceedings (which I suppose is possible in theory, but we don't even know who the judges would be), I don't think that Texas Central would be able to buy the land at less than its actual market value.

I do not know where you get what appears to be your concept that eminent domain means you are getting the land at less than market value. That is absolutely NOT the case. Eminent domain means, at least everywhere I have been anywhere near it, you pay at least market value. In fact, determination of market value is a major part of the process. Normally in practice you end up paying somewhat of a premium over what the open sale market value would be. In practice eminent domain is only used with unwilling sellers. Most agencies would prefer to negotiate a price without the need for legal compulsion being used to force the sale. There are a lot of non-highway agencies that have the power to obtain land by eminent domain when negotiations fail, such as utility companies, pipelines, etc. Sometimes it may only be an easement, but there are several agencies that go for fee simple purchase only.

 

[cirdan]

Brightline has a lot on its plate already especially if they are doing the LA to Las Vegas line as well as what they are building in FL.

are the two projects ring-fenced, or could problems on one potentially bring down the other?

 

[cirdan]

I think it is difficult to deny that there were massive cost overruns on CAHSR and that these were caused by massive over-optimism and to some extent incompetence.

Compared for example to the much greater rate of progress made on Brightline, at a fraction of the cost, I think there is an argument here for the better being the greatest enemy of the good.

I do support CAHSR and I do hope it will succeed, but it can at times be very difficult to defend.

 

[toddinde]

Texas might be "business friendly," but they also have a fundamentalist faith in the sanctity of "private property." Thus, unless there is actual bribery of the judge(s) overseeing the eminent domain proceedings (which I suppose is possible in theory, but we don't even know who the judges would be), I don't think that Texas Central would be able to buy the land at less than its actual market value.

If Texas Central goes "belly up," it can do so in two ways. The first would be chapter 11, in which the company is reorganized, debts are paid off at some fraction of their value, and the company continues to (attempt) to do business. The other way is Chapter 7, in which the company stops doing business and whatever assets it has are sold off (liquidated) in order to pay the outstanding debts. If the company was able to buy land and it went into chapter 11, it would presumably keep the land and continue to build the railway, now freed from past debts. If the company went into chapter 7, I suppose the bankruptcy trustees would want to sell the land for as much as they could in order to maximize the cash on hand to pay debts.

Of course that “sanctity of private property” interestingly doesn’t extend to highways or airports. Seems more selective than some kind of libertarian purity.

 

[joelkfla]

I think it is difficult to deny that there were massive cost overruns on CAHSR and that these were caused by massive over-optimism and to some extent incompetence.

Compared for example to the much greater rate of progress made on Brightline, at a fraction of the cost, I think there is an argument here for the better being the greatest enemy of the good.

I do support CAHSR and I do hope it will succeed, but it can at times be very difficult to defend.

I don't disagree with your first paragraph, but CAHSR to Brightline is not a fair comparison.

Brightline is not HSR. The coastal portion is at the high end of conventional rail speed, and is in essence reinstalling double track on an already owned ROW that had been double tracked in the past, upgrading signaling and grade crossings, and replacing bridges. The east-west portion is being built from scratch but on existing highway ROW, and is Higher Speed Rail.

 

[jis]

I don't disagree with your first paragraph, but CAHSR to Brightline is not a fair comparison.

Brightline is not HSR. The coastal portion is at the high end of conventional rail speed, and is in essence reinstalling double track on an already owned ROW that had been double tracked in the past, upgrading signaling and grade crossings, and replacing bridges. The east-west portion is being built from scratch but on existing highway ROW, and is Higher Speed Rail.

For the East-West portion it may be more appropriate to say that it is being build along a highway RoW, but not exactly on it at every point. That is why there was the issue with Deseret. Some places it is right along the highway, other places it is at some distance from the highway.

 

[MARC Rider]

Of course that “sanctity of private property” interestingly doesn’t extend to highways or airports. Seems more selective than some kind of libertarian purity.

My point wasn't that eminent domain isn't impossible in Texas, it's that if they do it, they have a cultural norm to pay the property owner the fair market price. There might well be cases of corruption where the property owner gets the shaft, but those are violating the cultural norms that the locals strongly care about.