The Boeing MAX 8 Accidents

[ehbowen]

If you want to see how old the basic 737 design is -- google "Boeing 737 trim wheels" or similar.

I know exactly how old the basic 737 design is...I was in diapers, and now I'm getting mail from AARP!

 

[jis]

United has now cancelled all usage of their Maxes through Nov 3.

 

[drdumont]

And American bought more Airbuses. I may have to fly crop dusters from Dallas to SFO to get to EMY for the August trip.
Where are all the MD-80s and 727s when we need them?
-- Oh yeah - - Davis Monthan and the Asian subcontinent.
Actually toying with DAL-LAX-SJC-EMY-CHI-NOL-SAS-DAL.
Once can dream, can't one?

 

[jis]

Asian Subcontinent? What is that?

 

[drdumont]

Oh I guess just about anything South of China. I've seen a lot of the older planes on cargo and passenger lines in India, Pakistan, as well as all over the North African continent.

 

[jis]

Oh I guess just about anything South of China. I've seen a lot of the older planes on cargo and passenger lines in India, Pakistan, as well as all over the North African continent.

I am not aware of any significant passenger airline in India that uses anything older than 737s and A3xx's in their jet fleet. When did you go to India last? Which airlines specifically are you talking about? On an average the Indian domestic carriers at present have a newer fleet overall than the US airlines in the US. That is mainly because the largest domestic carriers (e.g. IndiGo, SpiceJet, Vistara, etc.) did not even exist 15 years back.

 

[PVD]

70 or so MD-88 still at Delta, along with a bunch of MD-90. The MD-83 TWA bought just before their demise (25+) almost all still soldier on at AA. Hawaiin and Delta fly about 120 of the 717 which is the renamed MD-95, the last MD derivative....

 

[jiml]

70 or so MD-88 still at Delta, along with a bunch of MD-90. The MD-83 TWA bought just before their demise (25+) almost all still soldier on at AA. Hawaiin and Delta fly about 120 of the 717 which is the renamed MD-95, the last MD derivative....

717 is a beautiful airplane, inside and out. AA MD-80's are still flying and remain a favorite of mine. Does anyone recall when they used to back away from the gate under their own power only at DFW? An interesting and noisy experience to say the least.

 

[jis]

717 is a beautiful airplane, inside and out. AA MD-80's are still flying and remain a favorite of mine. Does anyone recall when they used to back away from the gate under their own power only at DFW? An interesting and noisy experience to say the least.

Yup, and remarkably wasteful of fuel.

Last flights of AA MD-80s are on Sept 3 and 4 this year.

https://www.gatechecked.com/book-fast-american-announces-schedule-of-final-md-80-flights-1587

Delta plans to take the MDs out of service after summer 2020. Don't know about their 717 plans. Very likely they will be around for a year or two more until Delta has received more C Series to replace the 717s with.

 

[jiml]

Yup, and remarkably wasteful of fuel.

Last flights of AA MD-80s are on Sept 3 and 4 this year.

https://www.gatechecked.com/book-fast-american-announces-schedule-of-final-md-80-flights-1587

Delta plans to take the MDs out of service after summer 2020. Don't know about their 717 plans. Very likely they will be around for a year or two more until Delta has received more C Series to replace the 717s with.

We recently lost our last AA MD-80 on the evening dinner flight to DFW in favor of a 738. AFAIK AA has not yet matched UA's delay announcement on the MAX's. When they do I can see a few MD-80's soldiering on for an additional couple of months.

 

[jis]

We recently lost our last AA MD-80 on the evening dinner flight to DFW in favor of a 738. AFAIK AA has not yet matched UA's delay announcement on the MAX's. When they do I can see a few MD-80's soldiering on for an additional couple of months.

According to AA that is not happening. They will just work around the MAX issue separately. Apparently there is some deadline coming up for mandatory requirement of some additional avionics on all commercial aircraft that the MD80s don't have and American is unwilling to pony up the funds to add them for just a few months. So Sept 3/4 is it.

 

[PVD]

ADS-B upgrade requirement I think. Very expensive on older aircraft, not worth it on a plane with a short service life with that carrier, and limited resale value.

 

[jis]

ADS-B upgrade requirement I think. Very expensive on older aircraft, not worth it on a plane with a short service life with that carrier, and limited resale value.

Yup. It is ADS-B upgrade. Very expensive.

 

[PVD]

Assumig that since 88's and 90s had upgraded cockpit electronics they are much less costly to upgrade which lets Delta keep them longer term. Just a guess, but it would make sense.

 

[jis]

Yeah. But even without the deadline looming for them they are dumping their 88s and 90s after the summer season 2020 since by then they will have enough replacement new acquisitions. The 717s last a little longer awaiting the delivery of more C-Series.

From some folks with inside knowledge's postings on airliners.net, apparently even though United has only removed MAXs from schedules upto Nov 3 (well they will remove, they haven't quite done so yet since one of my itineraries still has on in it), they have no idea when the MAXs will fly and contingency planning is afoot for doing without them till well into 2020. This involves postponing removal from service of the oldest A320s that were planned to leave the fleet last quarter this year. Also, 7 old 767s with Diamond BF seats that were scheduled to leave the fleet are apparently being retained for the time being. Relief will start arriving next year when the second hand fleet of A319/320s start coming on line.

WSJ has an article today speculating that the MAXs may remain grounded well into 2020. There are other industry rags that are speculating that if the grounding goes beyond the end of this year heads at Boeing will start rolling starting from the top. All speculations mind you.

 

[jiml]

WSJ has an article today speculating that the MAXs may remain grounded well into 2020.

That is my understanding from an independent source. Then, realistically how will they convince the travelling public to trust them again until they've been back flying for awhile? The amount of press coverage this story has gotten will make it difficult to forget. Given a choice - MAX with Airline A vs. A-320 or regular 737 with Airline B may be a choice made with wallets.

I was not aware of the impending update required for the MD series... thanks for the info. I will miss them greatly.

 

[drdumont]

Just try and find an American flight without an Airbus to where you need to go these days unless it is a cropduster route. And American just ordered a bunch more. So I'll fly from DFW to the Bay Area on a couple of cropdusters so I can get to Emeryville. I just won't ride an Airbus.

 

[jis]

I actually like the A320s compared to 737s because of their slightly wider cabins giving a bit mor elbow room. But these are just a matter of personal taste as to whether more elbow room is important or not.

 

[PVD]

American has 300+ 737-800 still flying and 400+ A320 family. Very much dependent on which airports you frequent.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

American has 300+ 737-800 still flying and 400+ A320 family. Very much dependent on which airports you frequent.

I'll be on a 737-800 in August from San Jose, CA to O'hare.

 

[jiml]

American has 300+ 737-800 still flying and 400+ A320 family. Very much dependent on which airports you frequent.

Bingo!

 

[jiml]

Just try and find an American flight without an Airbus to where you need to go these days unless it is a cropduster route. And American just ordered a bunch more. So I'll fly from DFW to the Bay Area on a couple of cropdusters so I can get to Emeryville. I just won't ride an Airbus.

Until the MAX problems and the 787 assembly issues in SC, I was with you. Boeing has dropped the ball bigtime and it's going to take awhile to restore confidence. AA has an excellent fleet of Canadian-made "cropdusters" FWIW, in addition to the Brazilian ones.

 

[PVD]

Well, other than the 20 E-190 they inherited in the USAir merger, the other Canadian and Brazilian aircraft are not operated by mainline pilots. They are operated either by regional subsidiaries owned by AA or by contracted regional carriers all under the "American Eagle" branding....50, 70, or 76 seaters aren't my cup of tea, but not exactly cropdusters.

 

[drdumont]

PVD and others are spot on. AA does still fly Boeing aircraft to some destinations and sometimes it depends on which flight to a given destination. Problem is, where I need to go is all Airbus.
I really have no issues with the manufacturers such as Canadair and Embraer. When I go to Abilene or Houston or even Baton Rouge, I understand that a full sized aircraft doesn't make sense nowadays. And that's only an hour or less in a flying cigar tube. But on multi hour flights, I just prefer flying in something larger than said cigar tube, and nonstops at that. I like First Class, and for what I am paying, I prefer a full sized seat in a full sized aircraft, and Full First Class service.
But reality is what it is. So I'll use my miles, have a stopover or two, and think about what lies ahead. A bedroom on the Zephyr or the Empire Builder. That will kiss it and make it well.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Where are all the MD-80s and 727s when we need them?

All your favorites can be found right here...

I just won't ride an Airbus.

That's a perk I hadn't previously considered.

Boeing has dropped the ball bigtime and it's going to take awhile to restore confidence.

So long as the FAA continues to honor first party certifications, and allows favoritism to influence the speed and efficacy of corrective actions, any confidence regained is likely to be misplaced.