The Boeing MAX 8 Accidents

[PVD]

The regionals are very variable. The Embrarer E jets (not the ERJ 135/45) are generally pretty good as far as seats go. The Airbus A-320 family has an excellent track record flying for US carriers.

 

[Seaboard92]

Regional jets in my opinion have a tad more leg room. I should know I spend a lot of time flying on them.

 

[jiml]

The newer ERJ/CRJ models do have a bit more room on both my carriers of choice. However, the older ERJ-135/40/45 cigar tube models were pretty bad. Ditto the early CRJ models, which Air Canada still flies way too many of. On those ERJ/CRJ types there's usually no FC, so always worth the upgrade to the "more room" coach seats IMHO.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

When airlines buy "regional jets", they don't have any choices when it comes to interior seating configuration, like they do with the larger jets?

 

[jis]

When airlines buy "regional jets", they don't have any choices when it comes to interior seating configuration, like they do with the larger jets?

They do get to specify layout and what seat hardware to use, just like for other planes.

 

[PVD]

The same planes may be equipped in a number of different interior configurations. Sometimes you see multiple versions on the same airline. This applies both to RJ and mainline fleets.

 

[Trogdor]

Airlines can spec seats and layouts for regional jets, but for the 50-seaters, there’s generally less of a choice. I don’t know specifically about seat manufacturers, but in terms of layout and seat count, the planes were designed around 50 seats, and so that’s what you get. They could take a row of seats out, but that represents nearly a 10% loss in capacity (whereas one row on a larger plane may only be ~5% of capacity). So, the premium for an “Economy Plus” type of seat on a jet that already has a high cost per seat is going to be significantly higher. On the other hand, there isn’t any room to add a row, even with slimlines, as there isn’t enough extra space, and the planes are already at their maximum certified capacity (plus, going over 50 seats requires an additional flight attendant). Therefore, you’re pretty much wedged in right at the 50-seat count.

 

[jis]

Maybe that is why many airlines are progressively getting rid of 50 seaters.

 

[jiml]

When airlines buy "regional jets", they don't have any choices when it comes to interior seating configuration, like they do with the larger jets?

I don't believe that is correct. I know of several regional models that have different configurations specific to the airlines that fly them. This was a "hot button" topic on Flyertalk (AU for airline mileage people) many years ago as they were being rolled out. "Why does Delta have 9 FC seats on their RJ, United has 6 and AA has none?", and so on.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Maybe that is why many airlines are progressively getting rid of 50 seaters.

I really dislike the smaller range of commercial regional aircraft. They're noisy, bumpy, and uncomfortable with few options for improving your experience. That being said, larger regional aircraft provide FC and PE cabins along with a lack of middle seats in coach. The initial move to replace mainline routes with tiny regional jets pushed me away from domestic flying, but the resulting push-back from frequent fliers and inefficient CASM eventually led to larger regional aircraft with an improved experience that has brought me back into the fold. If you pick the right seats you can get some amazing legroom and only one neighbor on the larger regional craft.

 

[caravanman]

This little-known inventor has probably saved your life:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-49012771

Ed.

 

[jis]

Southwest has removed MAXes from their schedule through early January 2020. They say that the MAX is likely to get recertified in 4Q2019, but it will take them upto two months to re-induct them into their flight line.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/25/sou...th-hit-from-the-boeing-737-max-grounding.html

They also incidentally are shutting down their operations at EWR.

 

[jis]

Now Southwest pilots are privately saying that they don't expect to see MAXs in service before March 2020.

Meanwhile, a lot of unsavory facts are coming out about the extent of the regulatory and certification problems. Apparently Boeing managed to get FAA to exempt the MAX from meeting FAA's own certification requirements just so that they could claim that pilots do not need additional training.

https://www.seattletimes.com/busine...x-certification-requirements-for-crew-alerts/

A Boeing engineer has also come forward stating that Boeing management most likely knew about what they were pushing and its possible consequences, and chose to carry on regardless.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/02/business/boeing-737-max-crashes.html

No wonder trust in FAA's and Boeing's competence is being questioned by many.

Instead of "Unless it is Boeing I am not going", it is sounding more and more like "If it is Boeing I am not going". As Mark Anthony says in Julius Caesar - "What a fall was there my countrymen..."

 

[Devil's Advocate]

The wild west cowboy logic required to make this abdication of responsibility possible was already in motion a decade before the first MAX ever took flight. Some safety advocates spoke out, but the people in power chose not to listen. The real lesson to be learned is that no lesson will be learned and we'll be right back where we started in another decade or two.

 

[Dakota 400]

There needs to be a very thorough housecleaning in the Executive Suites of Boeing as far as this shareholder is concerned. I registered my disgust with my proxy vote in April. It's time for those who hold major positions in Boeing to start to "shake the tree". Senior Executives, and maybe some less senior types, need to be replaced along with a Board of Directors who have been less than diligent in their duty.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

It's time for those who hold major positions in Boeing to start to "shake the tree".

For every investor who wants to clean house for the benefit of consumers there are a thousand others who just want to find the best method for leveraging the controversy.

 

[Seaboard92]

It’s a good time to invest in Boeing. The more they struggle the lower the shares go. Boeing is too big to fail and the US Government won’t let it fail. It’ll come back up eventually. I did that with BP during the oil spill in the gulf and I think I did well for myself now.

 

[Griffin T. Murphey DDS]

Probably the two worst lemon airliners that killed a lot of people were the DeHavilland Comet and Lockheed Electra both of which had structural problems. Both were fixed and the Electra spin off the P-3 Orion had a long military service and I think Australia and Canada still fly some. Although the Comet was fixed the Boeing 707 was better and DeHavilland did not survive. Interestingly the USN’s replacement for the P-3 is a militarized Boeing 737, the P-8 Poseidon. Boeing also just flew a Naval air refueling drone so they have the military stuff to keep working with. I would not count them out yet, but losing a string of new planes IS bad JuJu.

 

[jis]

Interestingly, the two MAX crashes together has killed almost three times the total number of people killed in Comet I incidents combined. There were two major sets of defect caused crashes of Comet Is. The first set was due to loss of lift at high angle of attack during takeoff causing failure to get off the ground (at least two crashes attributed to this - Rome Campiano and Karachi), which was fixed in later Comet 1s. The second was due to fatigue crack at the corner of square windows causing structural failure of the fuselage (Elba and Naples), the better known issue which caused the grounding. There was an additional crash which had nothing to do with these two causes, but was due to extreme turbulence on a takeoff from Calcutta - Dum Dum (today's CCU), which caused the aircraft to lose its wings - unheard of today.

Square windows were replaced by oval windows and Comet IVs flew with many airlines. The derivative HS Nimrod maritime patrol aircraft were finally retired by RAF in 2011.

Hawker Siddeley became part of BAE and of course BAE contributes to Airbus. Indeed Airbus UK, which builds the wings for most Airbus planes (including the 32x family, 330, 340, 350 and 380) was originally part of BAE. The facilities are located in Filton (suburb of Bristol) and Broughton. So in some sense all Airbus planes have a bit of the Hawker Siddeley DNA.

Some additional interesting info..... Both the crashes on takeoff were initially blamed on pilots, but later the root cause was found to be aircraft design. The Comet 1 and 1A had also been criticized for lack of feel in their controls - a contributor to the Calcutta crash (a core issue driving the entire MCAS thing), which was fixed in later Comets. It should be recognized that the Comet was a revolutionary new aircraft, and experience of its early problems helped the likes of Boeing and McDonnell Douglas avoid those issues in the 707 and DC-8 as has been acknowledged by both.

 

[Dakota 400]

It’s a good time to invest in Boeing. The more they struggle the lower the shares go. Boeing is too big to fail and the US Government won’t let it fail. It’ll come back up eventually. I did that with BP during the oil spill in the gulf and I think I did well for myself now.

I agree with your thoughts. I remain of the belief that those executives/managers at whatever level/members of the Board/whomever that allowed this situation to happen to the Company need to find other employment.

 

[ehbowen]

I agree with your thoughts. I remain of the belief that those executives/managers at whatever level/members of the Board/whomever that allowed this situation to happen to the Company need to find other employment.

Like, say, a twenty-year career of making big rocks into little rocks.

 

[jiml]

Like, say, a twenty-year career of making big rocks into little rocks.

...or making license plates.

 

[Dakota 400]

Like, say, a twenty-year career of making big rocks into little rocks.

...or making license plates.

Maybe what might be worse is their conscious. "What did I do or did not do that contributed to the loss of life on those two planes?"

And, what about those of us who are small Boeing shareholders whose shares have fallen in value? A possible Class Action Suit in the future?

 

[Asher]

Regardless of when they get recertification, I have my own timetable. I'm over wondering what they did wrong, it's obvious they released this model 737 with the suggestion it was much like its predecessor, when in fact it is far from it. It'll fly, just not like the last model.

 

[ehbowen]

If Boeing were looking here for suggestions (ha!), mine would be to bring back and re-engine the 757. That airframe should have a lot more potential for future development. Of course, that would mean that the Southwest pilots would all have to be (re!) trained....

One other factor: Southwest essentially owns William P. Hobby Airport near my home in Houston. Due to its 1930s design and tight taxiway clearances, that airport is closed to any aircraft with a wingspan greater than 125 feet. The wingspan of the B-757, as previously built, was 124 feet 10 inches. Doesn't leave much room to play around for aerodynamic tricks.