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WoodyinNYC
Conductor
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WoodyinNYC
Conductor
The use of the word "hub" is unexplained in that piece.
Make Richmond a hub of passenger rail? Uh, O.K.
But it takes spokes to make a hub, with passengers transferring from one spoke/route to another at the hub.
When the old SAL short cut to Raleigh gets rebuilt (at best that's some years and another Billion or more away, no?) that would be another spoke.
Of course the routes to Norfolk and Newport News are already spokes, with passengers to/from D.C., Miami, and the Piedmont corridor transferring at Richmond. But if that's it, ain't much of a hub.
Maybe she is thinking of electrifying Richmond-D.C. down the line, so the locomotives would transfer at Richmond instead of D.C. But at best that's many more years and another Billion or more away, no?
Or maybe she's thinking of the Trans Dominion Express, if I'm recalling the name correcting, the pencil-on-paper route from the Tidewater terminals thru Richmond to Lynchburg-Roanoke-Bristol. That would be another spoke and make Richmond a hub indeed. But that route is also at best many years and another Billion or more away.
Still, if a future Stimulus dropped windfall Billions onto passenger rail projects, I could see the Trans Dominion Express route getting serious by heading on down past Bristol to Knoxville-Chattanooga-Atlanta/Birmingham.
Then throw in a route Richmond-Charlottesville? Or beyond, to Charleston WV-Cincinnati-Chicago? Or some route to Louisville-St Louis? (Wasn't there some route from the Tidewater over the mountains into Kentucky, back in the days?)
Well, dayum, we've spent 20 years and $10 Billion daydreaming of a real Richmond hub, and we haven't even got a train to Atlanta.
Wishing Ms Stock all the best with her v vision. But I'll be lucky to live to see a 90-minute trip Richmond-D.C. I'll probably be lucky to see Congress vote any Billions for passenger rail at all.
Make Richmond a hub of passenger rail? Uh, O.K.
But it takes spokes to make a hub, with passengers transferring from one spoke/route to another at the hub.
When the old SAL short cut to Raleigh gets rebuilt (at best that's some years and another Billion or more away, no?) that would be another spoke.
Of course the routes to Norfolk and Newport News are already spokes, with passengers to/from D.C., Miami, and the Piedmont corridor transferring at Richmond. But if that's it, ain't much of a hub.
Maybe she is thinking of electrifying Richmond-D.C. down the line, so the locomotives would transfer at Richmond instead of D.C. But at best that's many more years and another Billion or more away, no?
Or maybe she's thinking of the Trans Dominion Express, if I'm recalling the name correcting, the pencil-on-paper route from the Tidewater terminals thru Richmond to Lynchburg-Roanoke-Bristol. That would be another spoke and make Richmond a hub indeed. But that route is also at best many years and another Billion or more away.
Still, if a future Stimulus dropped windfall Billions onto passenger rail projects, I could see the Trans Dominion Express route getting serious by heading on down past Bristol to Knoxville-Chattanooga-Atlanta/Birmingham.
Then throw in a route Richmond-Charlottesville? Or beyond, to Charleston WV-Cincinnati-Chicago? Or some route to Louisville-St Louis? (Wasn't there some route from the Tidewater over the mountains into Kentucky, back in the days?)
Well, dayum, we've spent 20 years and $10 Billion daydreaming of a real Richmond hub, and we haven't even got a train to Atlanta.
Wishing Ms Stock all the best with her v vision. But I'll be lucky to live to see a 90-minute trip Richmond-D.C. I'll probably be lucky to see Congress vote any Billions for passenger rail at all.
neroden
Engineer
The future is kind of clear, but it's hard to see how to get there:
(1) four tracks (two passenger on the north side, two freight on the south side) from where the Virginia Ave Tunnel (freight) and First Ave Tunnel (passenger) meet south of Union Station DC, through a new L'Enfant Plaza station, across the Long Bridge (with a new bridge), through Alexandria VA, until the NS and CSX lines split
(2) three or four tracks along the CSX line from there to Acca Yard in Richmond
(3) Two mostly-passenger tracks from there to Richmond Main Street
(4) Two passeneger-only tracks across the river from Richmond Main Street to Petersburg
(5) North Carolina's big project from Petersburg to Raleigh
(1) four tracks (two passenger on the north side, two freight on the south side) from where the Virginia Ave Tunnel (freight) and First Ave Tunnel (passenger) meet south of Union Station DC, through a new L'Enfant Plaza station, across the Long Bridge (with a new bridge), through Alexandria VA, until the NS and CSX lines split
(2) three or four tracks along the CSX line from there to Acca Yard in Richmond
(3) Two mostly-passenger tracks from there to Richmond Main Street
(4) Two passeneger-only tracks across the river from Richmond Main Street to Petersburg
(5) North Carolina's big project from Petersburg to Raleigh
The northern boundary of SEHSR is RVM. The plan for the vicinity of Petersburg went through many permutations, but it's now to add a second single-track bridge over the river at Petersburg, then add a third track from the north bank of the river to Centralia, and then renovate the ex-SAL from Centralia to RVM. I can't remember whether 100% of the segment from Centralia to the south bank of the James would be double track, but I don't think it is. The bridge over the James would remain single track.
neroden
Engineer
I thought, last time I checked, that the bridge over the James had to be *completely replaced*... in which case it would be crazy to make it single-track. Is it possible to merely rehab it? That would make it make sense to leave it single-track.
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If the station track on the left side of RVM (facing north) remains single, then it doesn't make much sense to build a double-track bridge. A second train would have to hold back from the station anyway. I believe the plan is DT immediately south of the bridge for several miles, but I don't have the SEHSR documents in front of me.
Virginia has around $50 to $60 million a year for passenger rail projects (Amtrak) over the next 6 years, around another $50 million a year for freight rail, and around $7 to $13 million a year for short line preservation. Quite respectable compared to most states. Some of the freight rail projects directly benefit Amtrak service (such as Nokesville to Calverton double tracking) and the lion's share of the short line preservation funding has been going to Buckingham Branch which of course helps the Cardinal.
These funds don't include VRE which has its own capital funding allocations. Virginia should be able to tap some FTA and CMAQ funds for the VRE portion of the route from DC to the Spotsylvania station & yard. So VRE should help pay for the big ticket Long bridge replacement, 4 tracking in Alexandria, and completing 3 tracks from AF interlocking to Fredericksburg.
Thanks to the transportation funding fix and boost passed under Gov. McDonnell, Virginia is in good shape with regards to having money available for transit (and road) projects. Since the WAS to RVM route ends only blocks from the state capital, that helps with the politics of obtaining additional state funding for upgrades to the corridor. If Virginia were to put $150 to $200 million a year into the Long bridge to RVM to south of Petersburg route starting in FY19 and land some matching federal transit funding for the VRE portion, the state could pay for a series of improvement projects on the corridor through 2025 and beyond. Might not get all the improvements wanted for 90 mph service by 2025, but could make real progress towards that goal by 2025 even w/o a restored intercity passenger rail federal grant program.
My read of the hub aspect, and other articles regarding RVM redevelopment is more along the lines of an intermodal hub that would include inter-city/commuter trains, buses, cabs. Not a hub in the sense of Chicago or New York. Being a native RVR'r I wouldn't complain if it did become a true inter-city rail hub.The use of the word "hub" is unexplained in that piece.
Make Richmond a hub of passenger rail? Uh, O.K.
But it takes spokes to make a hub, with passengers transferring from one spoke/route to another at the hub.
When the old SAL short cut to Raleigh gets rebuilt (at best that's some years and another Billion or more away, no?) that would be another spoke.
Of course the routes to Norfolk and Newport News are already spokes, with passengers to/from D.C., Miami, and the Piedmont corridor transferring at Richmond. But if that's it, ain't much of a hub.
Maybe she is thinking of electrifying Richmond-D.C. down the line, so the locomotives would transfer at Richmond instead of D.C. But at best that's many more years and another Billion or more away, no?
Or maybe she's thinking of the Trans Dominion Express, if I'm recalling the name correcting, the pencil-on-paper route from the Tidewater terminals thru Richmond to Lynchburg-Roanoke-Bristol. That would be another spoke and make Richmond a hub indeed. But that route is also at best many years and another Billion or more away.
Still, if a future Stimulus dropped windfall Billions onto passenger rail projects, I could see the Trans Dominion Express route getting serious by heading on down past Bristol to Knoxville-Chattanooga-Atlanta/Birmingham.
Then throw in a route Richmond-Charlottesville? Or beyond, to Charleston WV-Cincinnati-Chicago? Or some route to Louisville-St Louis? (Wasn't there some route from the Tidewater over the mountains into Kentucky, back in the days?)
Well, dayum, we've spent 20 years and $10 Billion daydreaming of a real Richmond hub, and we haven't even got a train to Atlanta.
Wishing Ms Stock all the best with her v vision. But I'll be lucky to live to see a 90-minute trip Richmond-D.C. I'll probably be lucky to see Congress vote any Billions for passenger rail at all.
neroden
Engineer
If you're building a completely new bridge, it's not that much cheaper to design it for single-track rather than double-track, and restricting it to single track could cause expensive trouble in the future. It makes sense to make the wider piers and abutments, even if you don't lay the track right away.
If, on the other hand, you're reusing piers which are only good for one track width, then there is real savings in not widening it.
Worth noting: there are already two trackbeds on each side of RVM. Constructing the "outer" platforms would be a project but not a particularly complicated one.
When I look at it, there are actually a whole lot of separate bridges, of varying design, from RVM to where the track touches down on the far side of the James River; it's basically an elevated railroad. It may be that some of them are in good condition and do not warrant rebuilding, while others need reconstruction.
I would hope that the ones being reconstructed will be "futureproofed". The main bridge across the James looks like it ought to be raised to get it out of the flood zone.
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The proposed SEHSR route from RVM to Centralia is currently used for local freight traffic, IIRC, and is proposed to have a second main track added from the James River south for 79 MPH passenger operations. The old SAL Line from Petersburg to Raleigh is to be resurrected as a 110 MPH line, although there is talk of it being a conventional 79 MPH operation initially to save initial costs. I find it ironic that the venerable Main St. Station train scene will revert back to pre 1959 status when Seaboard and C&O both shared it. BTW, is there any serious discussion concerning rebuilding the ex C&O line from Doswell down to RVM to handle some of the regional trains to Hampton Roads area?
neroden
Engineer
It was studied but concluded to be way too slow compared to the existing CSX route.
FormerOBS
Conductor
Interesting that this will require the cooperation of CSX, which owns the line. Here's some historical context. Bear in mind that some details are unclear. Prior to the. 1990's, the Commonwealth of Virginia was the principal owner of the Richmond Fredericksburg & Potomac RR. I'm not quite clear bout the circumstances of this ownership, but the RF&P was a money maker for the Commonwealth. When it was decided that Potomac Yards in Alexandria was to be bypassed, the Commonwealth wanted to redevelop the property. They sold the railroad mainline to CSX and sponsored the redevelopment.
Within a couple years, it was decided that the route would be a good one for expanded passenger service in Virginia, including commuter service. CSX, the new owner, had just replaced the old double track bridge over Quantico Creek with a brand new single track bridge. When approached about running additional commuter passenger trains on the route, CSX said additional capacity would have to be added at Virginia's expense. So Virginia paid the full cost of an additional span over Quantico Creek. That bridge, paid for out of the State coffers, is now used by CSX freight trains as well as the passenger trains.
If the politicians in Richmond had been far sighted, they could have continued to maintain control over that line. But now they are tenants, subject to the will of CSX, owners of the line that they gave up. I hope the current crop of Virginia politicians are smarter than those of 25 years ago.
Tom
Within a couple years, it was decided that the route would be a good one for expanded passenger service in Virginia, including commuter service. CSX, the new owner, had just replaced the old double track bridge over Quantico Creek with a brand new single track bridge. When approached about running additional commuter passenger trains on the route, CSX said additional capacity would have to be added at Virginia's expense. So Virginia paid the full cost of an additional span over Quantico Creek. That bridge, paid for out of the State coffers, is now used by CSX freight trains as well as the passenger trains.
If the politicians in Richmond had been far sighted, they could have continued to maintain control over that line. But now they are tenants, subject to the will of CSX, owners of the line that they gave up. I hope the current crop of Virginia politicians are smarter than those of 25 years ago.
Tom
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It was also thrown into the recent study, but the DRPT folks and I had a laugh at it being included solely to be excluded.
Even if the alignment were about as fast as the existing route, the main problem is that it skips both RVR and any potential revival of Broad Street Station, putting all of the traffic into and out of RVM. Frankly, RVM does not have the parking needed to deal with that...it is a good station for folks going to/from downtown but it is not a good station for a lot of traffic originating from the Richmond area. Moreover, if you were to hypothetically shunt all of the trains in there and have most of them skip RVR it is highly likely that RVM could not handle the traffic loads even if you fixed the parking situation. RVR is handling over 1000 pax/day right now; with the new trains (and with more trains going both north and south or east rather than terminating, not to mention additional connecting traffic between Hampton Roads trains and North Carolina/Florida trains) the totals in the Richmond area should climb to somewhere between 2000/day and 2500/day. RVM is a beautiful station, but I do not think it is quite capable of handling traffic loads in that range, particularly if you start getting a lot more connecting pax.
FWIW, there are plans in the works to overhaul Staples Mill (these replaced the Parham Road station that was bandied about for a while)...the problem there is that you have four property owners (CSX, Amtrak, Virginia, and Henrico County) who have to sort anything out. I think there are plans (at least informally) to make both stations into significant transit hubs (in the sense of "trains, buses, etc. go here" rather than the "you can board a plane to 60 destinations here" sense).
One thing to bear in mind is that, as noted, VA is presently flush with local money and can probably leverage that into an RRIF loan of some sort. As things stand, VA has had trouble at times allocating all of their money and has been exceedingly cautious in their budgeting as a result (for example, the present allocations assume rather large losses on the Regionals [which are, on the whole, profitable] as a way of tying up money in the short term which can then be re-applied in a few years; this alone probably has $50m tied up right now)...so there's some "hidden" money available for when projects start up (that was "hidden" after VRE tried to grab money that DRPT can't allocate until these blasted EISes get completed).
Honestly, it isn't improbable that something resembling the 90-90-90 proposal could happen assuming that some share of the $50m/yr can be allocated to leverage a loan out over time. We're probably looking at about a 10-year time frame (damn NEPA is the main reason for that), but on the whole this isn't as bogged down as a lot of programs.
Tom,
I think it is fair to say that the folks in Richmond have their act together a lot more than the Wilder administration did. I'd always wondered what the land swap was in that infamous deal (thank you for clarifying that...it actually makes sense).
FormerOBS
Conductor
As I said, I don't know the details. It has always seemed a bit murky to me. It's probably too much to assume that "murky" can be interpreted as "shady".
Tom
Tom
I figure I'll toss in some more of what I understand about the long-term plans for Richmond-Washington:
(1) At present, the plan is to have 8x daily trains from Hampton Roads to Washington. These will tend to leave Hampton Roads in the morning and arrive in Washington between about 8:30 AM and 2:00 PM, though 66/67 will still be on the schedule and another of the trains will likely be allocated to a "reverse commute" timing.
(1b) There are nine trains set to leave Hampton Roads for Richmond. The ninth is planned to terminate in Richmond at present, with a ninth train originating in Richmond and going up to Washington. The Richmond-terminating train is, in the long-term, slated for the TDX (so it would continue onto Charlottesville). Whether this actually happens or not is an open question: On the one hand, the train would likely lose money; on the other hand, eating those losses in the context of more comprehensive service may ultimately be a serious debate when that time comes. On a strict business case this won't happen, but on a mixed business/political case it might, particularly if it can connect to/from the Cardinal. In the meantime, this train is likely to end up playing some sort of "connecting" role with other services.
(2) There are 4x-5x daily North Carolina trains as part of SEHSR. The uncertainty is whether the plan is to add four trains (plus the Carolinian, for five) or run four trains (including the Carolinian, for a total of four). These will tend to cover Richmond-Washington in the afternoon and evening (one of them will likely end up departing Richmond after 66/67 but beating 66/67 to New York). Basically, these will depart Charlotte throughout the morning.
The result won't quite be hourly service...you'll see some hours in the morning get "doubled up" while in the afternoon the frequencies will be closer to two trains every three hours.
(1) At present, the plan is to have 8x daily trains from Hampton Roads to Washington. These will tend to leave Hampton Roads in the morning and arrive in Washington between about 8:30 AM and 2:00 PM, though 66/67 will still be on the schedule and another of the trains will likely be allocated to a "reverse commute" timing.
(1b) There are nine trains set to leave Hampton Roads for Richmond. The ninth is planned to terminate in Richmond at present, with a ninth train originating in Richmond and going up to Washington. The Richmond-terminating train is, in the long-term, slated for the TDX (so it would continue onto Charlottesville). Whether this actually happens or not is an open question: On the one hand, the train would likely lose money; on the other hand, eating those losses in the context of more comprehensive service may ultimately be a serious debate when that time comes. On a strict business case this won't happen, but on a mixed business/political case it might, particularly if it can connect to/from the Cardinal. In the meantime, this train is likely to end up playing some sort of "connecting" role with other services.
(2) There are 4x-5x daily North Carolina trains as part of SEHSR. The uncertainty is whether the plan is to add four trains (plus the Carolinian, for five) or run four trains (including the Carolinian, for a total of four). These will tend to cover Richmond-Washington in the afternoon and evening (one of them will likely end up departing Richmond after 66/67 but beating 66/67 to New York). Basically, these will depart Charlotte throughout the morning.
The result won't quite be hourly service...you'll see some hours in the morning get "doubled up" while in the afternoon the frequencies will be closer to two trains every three hours.
neroden
Engineer
Anderson: if both the NC and VA projects actually get built out to that level (which seems a long way away right now), there will be huge surges in ridership which will create demand for faster trains, more double-tracking, longer trains, etc. etc. etc.
VA's portion seems closer than NC's for a host of reasons (not least being the S-line bit south of Richmond); honestly, I could see one or more of NC's trains getting added as far as Richmond.
I'm assuming a bit more than a doubling of ridership from where it is now for a few reasons, but a good chunk of it comes down to the fact that without significant demographic shifts I think that would put Richmond very high up the ridership per capita list...and there may be an upper limit on what you can do there, especially since the estimates in use put ridership from Hampton Roads at about a million per year and since you'll also likely get some interesting deals involving VRE that should fill a lot of space north of Richmond. I'd roughly peg ridership in VA to be about 4 million:
-1m or so from Hampton Roads
-1m or so from Richmond
-1m or so from stations north of RVR on the Richmond-Washington line (ALX, FBG, QAN, etc.)
-1m from the rest of the state (I'm thinking about 600k from the Lynchburger/Roanoke service, 300k from the Auto Train, and 100k scattered "other" from PTB, DAN, etc.)
If the SEHSR route becomes operational, I would think NC and VA would want one of the trains to take the more direct route via NS from Greensboro (about an hour faster even with the SAL route restored to 79mph). Would also provide additional service to Danville and Lynchburg, etc.
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
AU Supporting Member
Gathering Team Member
I don't see why NC would want it. I can see why Va might. But it is not in any of their plans at present.
Carolina Special
Lead Service Attendant
NC would gain a connection to the Cardinal in Charlottesville with daylight arrival/departures in NC, unlike with the Crescent.
I'm going to generally agree with this. I do think a second train will happen here at some point; I am also quite frankly inclined to expect an overnight train along the eastern route as well, if only because at some point you run out of timings that can make the CLT-RGH-RVR-WAS-NYP run in daylight and one end or the other starts getting buried in the overnight hours.
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