VIA Jasper, Prince George and Prince Rupert Service

[Rasputin]

In the meantime, shocking news from Ottawa. An MP is going to ride a transcontinental train:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/taylor-bachrach-train-1.7061205

As far as local traffic, the forced overnight stop at Prince George must be a deal-killer for people just looking for transportation and not a tourist excursion. VIA needs to bring back the overnight service with a sleeping car. As it is, the ridership on this train, based on reports I have read over the years appears to be dismal (sometimes one or two passengers) unless there is a tour on board.

 

[jis]

As far as local traffic, the forced overnight stop at Prince George must be a deal-killer for people just looking for transportation and not a tourist excursion. VIA needs to bring back the overnight service with a sleeping car. As it is, the ridership on this train, based on reports I have read over the years appears to be dismal (sometimes one or two passengers) unless there is a tour on board.

How is serving half the route in the middle of the night going to help local traffic? Yes, it will help end to end traffic, but local traffic?

 

[Rasputin]

HBo is serving half the route in the middle of the night going to help local traffic? Yes, it will help end to end traffic, but local traffic?

Since people aren't using the present service, a through train would be better than what is there now even if some communities get overnight delivery. The Prince Rupert service should also at least attempt to make some connection with the Canadian at Jasper.

I am not aware that the Prince Rupert train suffers serious delays but maybe it does. In addition maybe someone has some ridership statistics.

A few years ago I was told that VIA switched to the present service after doing a survey and most locals wanted the service which now exists with the overnight stop at Prince George. If that is true, it appears that those who took the survey lied because they are not using the train.

 

[joelkfla]

A few years ago I was told that VIA switched to the present service after doing a survey and most locals wanted the service which now exists with the overnight stop at Prince George. If that is true, it appears that those who took the survey lied because they are not using the train.

As Joni Mitchell said, sometimes "You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone."

 

[Urban Sky]

As far as local traffic, the forced overnight stop at Prince George must be a deal-killer for people just looking for transportation and not a tourist excursion. VIA needs to bring back the overnight service with a sleeping car. As it is, the ridership on this train, based on reports I have read over the years appears to be dismal (sometimes one or two passengers) unless there is a tour on board.

Since people aren't using the present service, a through train would be better than what is there now even if some communities get overnight delivery.

May I ask you what non-tourist traffic potential you see between Jasper (pop. 4,100) and Prince Rupert (pop.13,200), which are a cool 1160 km (725 mi) apart? Local transportation needs are centered around Prince George, the by-far largest city in Northern BC (with a CA population of 90k) and that city was served horrendously under the old (overnight) schedule - with a stop in the middle of the night:

The Prince Rupert service should also at least attempt to make some connection with the Canadian at Jasper.

Feel free to suggest a schedule for the Skeena, which would offer connections to/from the Canadian, which would be simultaneously convenient, reliable and feasible with only two trainsets. Once you’ve done that I‘ll happily forward your CV to my former colleagues at VIA‘s scheduling department…

I am not aware that the Prince Rupert train suffers serious delays but maybe it does.

It absolutely does (and there is a non-significant number of departures which don‘t make it all the way to Prince Rupert, due to freight congestion into and out of that huge port just south of the city clogging up the entire route), if you read that article which was just posted here a few posts up:

In addition maybe someone has some ridership statistics.

1988: 26,665
2019: 16,327
2022: 7,385

A few years ago I was told that VIA switched to the present service after doing a survey and most locals wanted the service which now exists with the overnight stop at Prince George. If that is true, it appears that those who took the survey lied because they are not using the train.

The purpose of these „remote“ services is not to transport as many people as possible, but to transport those for whom this is the only viable transport option. Waiting at a flag stop in some remote area in winter daylight hours is one thing. Doing the same for a train stop scheduled at 3am in the morning is an entirely different matter.

At the same time, operating an overnight service is much, much more expensive, as you‘d need more cars (at the very least: a Chateau and a Skyline - both car types VIA has an acute shortage of) and more staff.

Therefore, operating these trains during the daytime serves the needs of remote passengers and taxpayers much better than a nighttrain ever could and that‘s the same reason why the Northern Quebec services were also converted from overnight to daytime operations at roughly the same time…

In short: transforming the Skeena to overnight trains would require spare cars VIA doesn’t own, additional funding VIA won‘t receive and would all but abandon those passengers which are the sole reason for the very existance of this train service…

 

[railiner]

How is serving half the route in the middle of the night going to help local traffic? Yes, it will help end to end traffic, but local traffic?

Eliminating the overnight stop might help the small number of passengers that wish to travel to and from stations that are on either side of the overnight stop...

 

[Urban Sky]

Eliminating the overnight stop might help the small number of passengers that wish to travel to and from stations that are on either side of the overnight stop...

Sure, it‘s impossible to cover all kinds of travel patterns with a measly three-times-per-week schedule, but as I wrote just three posts ago, Prince George is the big city of Northern BC and therefore the by far most-important destination for the kind of remote travel for which this service is intended…

 

[Rasputin]

My thanks to Urban Sky for his helpful information. I recall when this service ran in connection with the transcontinental service and from what I could personally observe then, it ran pretty well on time as did the transcontinental service. Perhaps nowadays there is no alternative to the present service which hardly anyone seems to use.

 

[jis]

Sure, it‘s impossible to cover all kinds of travel patterns with a measly three-times-per-week schedule, but as I wrote just three posts ago, Prince George is the big city of Northern BC and therefore the by far most-important destination for the kind of remote travel for which this service is intended…

Just for my edification, how does the accounting for subsidizing "essential service" work? Is there a separate pot of money to fund these designated services? Or is it just part of VIA's subsidy? Do the local Provincial Government have to contribute to this subsidy? Or is it purely an Ottawa thing? Thanks.

 

[Urban Sky]

Just for my edification, how does the accounting for subsidizing "essential service" work? Is there a separate pot of money to fund these designated services? Or is it just part of VIA's subsidy? Do the local Provincial Government have to contribute to this subsidy? Or is it purely an Ottawa thing? Thanks.

All of VIA’s operating subsidies (i.e. its operating deficit, or: revenues minus operating costs) are paid by the federal government, therefore the accounting doesn’t matter.

However, each Annual Report reports (fully-allocated) operating deficits for each route, which makes it possible to determine what share of the overall deficit is allocated to which service:

 

[Urban Sky]

My thanks to Urban Sky for his helpful information.

Thank you for these kind words!
I’m always happy to share the knowledge I have obtained, but I’m at times at risk of becoming too emotionally invested, which was a main reason I left VIA. I recall from my own experience that it was much easier to criticize VIA’s Management for “not doing the right thing” before I learnt that it becomes much less clear what the right thing would be and much clearer what avenues are unfortunately not feasible (though highly desirable), the more you understand the constraints under which VIA operates.

I recall when this service ran in connection with the transcontinental service and from what I could personally observe then, it ran pretty well on time as did the transcontinental service.

The January 1990 schedule still sets the standard for connectivity in Jasper (with the Skeena and both directions of the Canadian meeting on Tuesdays, Fridays and Sundays and allowing connections in all directions), underlining VIA’s desire to compensate as much as possible for the devastating cuts taking effect that same day, despite the limited means which remained at their disposal:

Perhaps nowadays there is no alternative to the present service which hardly anyone seems to use.

While at VIA, I was looking with the then-director of VIA’s regional services at ways to improve the schedules and services of these routes, but in the end, it was rarely possible to change anything without increasing their operating deficit (a non-starter for the federal bureaucrats overseeing VIA’s funding) or imposing hardships to some of those passengers who depend on these services. Given that these services only cost the taxpayer some $20 million in direct subsidies annually (i.e. direct operating costs minus direct revenues) or some 50 cent per Canadian, I also concluded that it’s probably best to just leave them as they are and not start asking questions which could provoke questions whether all of these services really still qualify for their “remote service” status…

 

[Rasputin]

Link to an article about MP Taylor Bachrach's trip on the Canadian and the Prince Rupert train from Toronto to his riding in northern B.C.

It is interesting to see that the article constantly refers to the Jasper - Prince Rupert train as the Skeena. This was the name that VIA gave to this train in the 1980s if I recall correctly but subsequently, VIA dropped the name, as well as most of its other train names, perhaps 15 or 20 years ago. So what was the Skeena is now just trains 5 and 6. But the name seems to persist with the local population and the media who still insist on calling the train the Skeena.

I don't believe the train had a name when it was a Canadian National train before VIA but corrections would be welcome.

https://thetyee.ca/News/2023/12/25/...ce=daily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=251223

 

[railiner]

I don't believe the train had a name when it was a Canadian National train before VIA but corrections would be welcome.

Not an official name, but didn't some wags nick-name it "The Rupert Rocket"?

 

[Rasputin]

Not an official name, but didn't some wags nick-name it "The Rupert Rocket"?

Yes that was and I believe still is the long standing nickname.

 

[Willbridge]

Link to an article about MP Taylor Bachrach's trip on the Canadian and the Prince Rupert train from Toronto to his riding in northern B.C.

It is interesting to see that the article constantly refers to the Jasper - Prince Rupert train as the Skeena. This was the name that VIA gave to this train in the 1980s if I recall correctly but subsequently, VIA dropped the name, as well as most of its other train names, perhaps 15 or 20 years ago. So what was the Skeena is now just trains 5 and 6. But the name seems to persist with the local population and the media who still insist on calling the train the Skeena.

I don't believe the train had a name when it was a Canadian National train before VIA but corrections would be welcome.

https://thetyee.ca/News/2023/12/25/...ce=daily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=251223

I checked on what was handy, and the name Skeena seems to have been added by VIA Rail in 1978 or 1979. On the Grand Trunk Pacific in 1916 it was just Trains 1 and 2 from Winnipeg. On the CNR in 1944 it was just Trains 195 and 196. On the CN in the 1970's it was just Trains 9 and 10, extended to Edmonton or even to Saskatoon on peak travel days. For the brief period when it again ran through to Winnipeg it was the Panorama and then it was the Skeena again.

At various times the problem of daytime access to remote points was covered by a tri-weekly mixed train.

 

[jiml]

I checked on what was handy, and the name Skeena seems to have been added by VIA Rail in 1978 or 1979. On the Grand Trunk Pacific in 1916 it was just Trains 1 and 2 from Winnipeg. On the CNR in 1944 it was just Trains 195 and 196. On the CN in the 1970's it was just Trains 9 and 10, extended to Edmonton or even to Saskatoon on peak travel days. For the brief period when it again ran through to Winnipeg it was the Panorama and then it was the Skeena again.

At various times the problem of daytime access to remote points was covered by a tri-weekly mixed train.

You saved me from going to my storage unit and digging out the old timetables.

 

[Rasputin]

On the CN in the 1970's it was just Trains 9 and 10, extended to Edmonton or even to Saskatoon on peak travel days. For the brief period when it again ran through to Winnipeg it was the Panorama and then it was the Skeena again.

So if I understand this correctly, CN did use the name Panorama for a Winnipeg - Prince Rupert service. I recall Panorama being a name used by CN for a secondary train on the transcontinental route in the 1970s but I was not aware that it was used for the Prince Rupert service. Was Skeena solely a VIA name or did CN also use it? I will have to check out my timetables as well.

I recall reading that in the Hinton (Dalehurst) collision on February 8, 1986, the consist of the Prince Rupert train (was Skeena the name then?) had been coupled to the rear of the eastbound Super Continental at Jasper en route to Edmonton. I don't know if the Prince Rupert service extended east to Edmonton at that time and the Prince Rupert cars were in service at the time of the collision or if the Prince Rupert locomotive and cars were being deadheaded to Edmonton for some reason. Perhaps someone can clarify that (esp. if they have a timetable which was in effect then.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinton_train_collision

 

[Urban Sky]

Perhaps someone can clarify that (esp. if they have a timetable which was in effect then.)

My CN/CP timetable archive can be found here.

My VIA timetable archive can be found here

 

[fdaley]

So if I understand this correctly, CN did use the name Panorama for a Winnipeg - Prince Rupert service. I recall Panorama being a name used by CN for a secondary train on the transcontinental route in the 1970s but I was not aware that it was used for the Prince Rupert service. Was Skeena solely a VIA name or did CN also use it? I will have to check out my timetables as well.

I recall reading that in the Hinton (Dalehurst) collision on February 8, 1986, the consist of the Prince Rupert train (was Skeena the name then?) had been coupled to the rear of the eastbound Super Continental at Jasper en route to Edmonton. I don't know if the Prince Rupert service extended east to Edmonton at that time and the Prince Rupert cars were in service at the time of the collision or if the Prince Rupert locomotive and cars were being deadheaded to Edmonton for some reason. Perhaps someone can clarify that (esp. if they have a timetable which was in effect then.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinton_train_collision

I believe VIA gave the Prince Rupert train the Panorama name only for a couple of years around 1984 when it ran through to Winnipeg. At the time, the Supercontinental had been canceled in the 1981 cuts, so the Rupert train was the only service west of Winnipeg on the CN, and there was no service between Jasper and Vancouver. After the Supercontinental was revived in 1985, the Prince Rupert train went back to being the Skeena and had either Edmonton or Jasper as its eastern terminus. In the periods when it ran through to Edmonton, it was combined with the Supercontinental between Edmonton and Jasper.

And yes, the Panorama was a name CN had previously used for secondary trains on the transcontinental route from the mid-1960s till about 1970. Initially it was a full-service train from Montreal/Toronto to Vancouver, but in latter years the Panorama name was only used west of Winnipeg.

 

[Urban Sky]

I believe VIA gave the Prince Rupert train the Panorama name only for a couple of years around 1984 when it ran through to Winnipeg. At the time, the Supercontinental had been canceled in the 1981 cuts, so the Rupert train was the only service west of Winnipeg on the CN, and there was no service between Jasper and Vancouver. After the Supercontinental was revived in 1985, the Prince Rupert train went back to being the Skeena and had either Edmonton or Jasper as its eastern terminus. In the periods when it ran through to Edmonton, it was combined with the Supercontinental between Edmonton and Jasper.

From my memory: The Super Continental (and the Montreal-Sudbury branch of the Canadian) was cancelled in November 1981 and replaced by the following:

• CAPR-SLKT-WNPG: tri-weekly sleeper service
• WNPG-Regina-SASK: daily service
• SASK-EDMO: daily RDC service
• EDMO-JASP-PGEO-PRUP: tri-weekly sleeper service (“Skeena”)

Around 1984, the above services were replaced by the following:

• OTTW-SUDB: tri-weekly RDC service
• CAPR-SLKT-WNPG: unchanged
• WNPG-SASK-EDMO-JASP-PGEO-PRUP: “Panorama” (daily to Edmonton, tri-weekly to PRUP)

In June 1985, the Panorama was replaced by the daily Super-Continental (WNPG-SASK-EDMO-JASP-VCVR) and the tri-weekly “Skeena” (EDMO-[attached to the Super-Continental]-JASP-PGEO-PRUP), whereas the Canadian’s branch to Montreal (via North Bay and Ottawa) was restored…

 

[fdaley]

From my memory: The Super Continental (and the Montreal-Sudbury branch of the Canadian) was cancelled in November 1981 and replaced by the following:

• CAPR-SLKT-WNPG: tri-weekly sleeper service
• WNPG-Regina-SASK: daily service
• SASK-EDMO: daily RDC service
• EDMO-JASP-PGEO-PRUP: tri-weekly sleeper service (“Skeena”)

Around 1984, the above services were replaced by the following:

• OTTW-SUDB: tri-weekly RDC service
• CAPR-SLKT-WNPG: unchanged
• WNPG-SASK-EDMO-JASP-PGEO-PRUP: “Panorama” (daily to Edmonton, tri-weekly to PRUP)

In June 1985, the Panorama was replaced by the daily Super-Continental (WNPG-SASK-EDMO-JASP-VCVR) and the tri-weekly “Skeena” (EDMO-[attached to the Super-Continental]-JASP-PGEO-PRUP), whereas the Canadian’s branch to Montreal (via North Bay and Ottawa) was restored…

That all sounds exactly right to me, in much better and greater detail than my summation above.

 

[Willbridge]

From my memory: The Super Continental (and the Montreal-Sudbury branch of the Canadian) was cancelled in November 1981 and replaced by the following:

• CAPR-SLKT-WNPG: tri-weekly sleeper service
• WNPG-Regina-SASK: daily service
• SASK-EDMO: daily RDC service
• EDMO-JASP-PGEO-PRUP: tri-weekly sleeper service (“Skeena”)

Around 1984, the above services were replaced by the following:

• OTTW-SUDB: tri-weekly RDC service
• CAPR-SLKT-WNPG: unchanged
• WNPG-SASK-EDMO-JASP-PGEO-PRUP: “Panorama” (daily to Edmonton, tri-weekly to PRUP)

In June 1985, the Panorama was replaced by the daily Super-Continental (WNPG-SASK-EDMO-JASP-VCVR) and the tri-weekly “Skeena” (EDMO-[attached to the Super-Continental]-JASP-PGEO-PRUP), whereas the Canadian’s branch to Montreal (via North Bay and Ottawa) was restored…

It's late at night, so I'll write a bit more about the 1984 Panorama when I'm wider awake. It's an unbelievable story that had to remain secret back then.

 

[railiner]

If the railways could name their trains for their aspirations, even if somewhat ambitious, for example, the “Panama Limited”, then I think VIA might consider naming the train, “The Alaska Limited.”
The terminal in Prince Rupert is shared with the Alaska and BC ferries…
A short ride to Ketchikan. It would be great if they would have a connection for each train.

From my cruise ship call there last July…

 

[fdaley]

When we rode out to Prince Rupert in 2016, I looked into taking the ferry to somewhere in Alaska -- anywhere, really, just to say we had done it -- but found that to go anywhere by boat and get back to Prince Rupert would have required adding a week or more to our trip, and coordinating with VIA's thrice-weekly schedule would have added more time. It was February and, at least at that season, the boats had an infrequent schedule, much less than daily and not even on the same days of the week every week. So, we just spent a couple of days in Prince Rupert, which is a nice town in a beautiful setting.

 

[Willbridge]

In 1916 the Grand Trunk Pacific steamships to Alaska and BC coast ports were integrated with the rail service. The CNR carried that on for a while.