Viewliner II Part 2: Dining Car Production, Delivery, Speculation

[A Voice]

Another idle speculation was it might be hard to explain to Congress why you bought 25 cars half of which you had no use for.

This could be a problem Amtrak could well have to address, as somebody will unlock the "Micascope" and the very point Mr. JIS noted will be heard in a Congressional Hearing room:
Congressman to Amtrak official;

"Sir, your company that without our funding could no longer be a going concern, ordered twenty five full service Dining Cars. Yet, as you were placing that order, you had knowledge that the Simplified Dining arrangements that this Committee suggested you initiate, were resulting in significant cost reductions without a corresponding revenue loss. Would you care to explain to the American people your rationale for such a decision?"

Jis, C'mon. "Half" of 25 diners no use for? With 5 each to the Meteor and the Crescent, 4 to the Lake Shore Ltd, assume 3 for back-up, 17 diners will be in use or assigned as soon as we get 17 of them..

The Silver Meteor, Crescent, and Lake Shore Limited combined require just eleven trainsets (hence, diners), plus spares, or indeed about half the purchased fleet. Regardless, the exact numbers - half, two-thirds, whatever - aren't what matters when you're being questioned (by persons critical anyway) over ordering more cars than you have use for.

Twenty-five cars is, just for the sake of argument, about the right number to have a diner on each single-level long-distance train except the Palmetto (17-19 cars, depending on a daily Cardinal).

 

[jis]

Another idle speculation was it might be hard to explain to Congress why you bought 25 cars half of which you had no use for.

This could be a problem Amtrak could well have to address, as somebody will unlock the "Micascope" and the very point Mr. JIS noted will be heard in a Congressional Hearing room:
Congressman to Amtrak official;

"Sir, your company that without our funding could no longer be a going concern, ordered twenty five full service Dining Cars. Yet, as you were placing that order, you had knowledge that the Simplified Dining arrangements that this Committee suggested you initiate, were resulting in significant cost reductions without a corresponding revenue loss. Would you care to explain to the American people your rationale for such a decision?"

Jis, C'mon. "Half" of 25 diners no use for? With 5 each to the Meteor and the Crescent, 4 to the Lake Shore Ltd, assume 3 for back-up, 17 diners will be in use or assigned as soon as we get 17 of them..

Methinks you missed the point and went off on a random tangent.
The Voice actually makes the relevant point quite succinctly. Bickering pointlessly about the exact number is missing the point.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

 

[cpotisch]

Is there any way of knowing what diners are next? Doesn't make much difference, but was just wondering.

 

[Ryan]

When it becomes knowable, the usual suspects will drop hints.

Go back an read the thread an you’ll see them, and get a feel for how long in advance we know.

Given that the next delivery is probably about two weeks out, we’ll probably know something shortly.

 

[JRR]

Concerning the cancellation of baggage service in Deerfield Beach, I talked to the gentleman who was doing the job at the time the service was being cancelled, he indicated that he was not losing a job as he was able to transfer into a different position, but he did indicate that there was a woman whose job status was up in the air at the time. Hopefully, she was able to transfer or find other employment.

This is just an isolated case, but from it, I think it is not unreasonable to believe that reduction in force is the chief reason behind it.

At a station such as Deerfield, it seems to me that it would be feasible to load and unload the bags using existing staffing.

Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Another idle speculation was it might be hard to explain to Congress why you bought 25 cars half of which you had no use for.

This could be a problem Amtrak could well have to address, as somebody will unlock the "Micascope" and the very point Mr. JIS noted will be heard in a Congressional Hearing room:
Congressman to Amtrak official;

"Sir, your company that without our funding could no longer be a going concern, ordered twenty five full service Dining Cars. Yet, as you were placing that order, you had knowledge that the Simplified Dining arrangements that this Committee suggested you initiate, were resulting in significant cost reductions without a corresponding revenue loss. Would you care to explain to the American people your rationale for such a decision?"

Jis, C'mon. "Half" of 25 diners no use for? With 5 each to the Meteor and the Crescent, 4 to the Lake Shore Ltd, assume 3 for back-up, 17 diners will be in use or assigned as soon as we get 17 of them..

The Silver Meteor, Crescent, and Lake Shore Limited combined require just eleven trainsets (hence, diners), plus spares, or indeed about half the purchased fleet. Regardless, the exact numbers - half, two-thirds, whatever - aren't what matters when you're being questioned (by persons critical anyway) over ordering more cars than you have use for.

Twenty-five cars is, just for the sake of argument, about the right number to have a diner on each single-level long-distance train except the Palmetto (17-19 cars, depending on a daily Cardinal).

Somehow I was thinking too fast and writing too slow and failed to make sense. I arrived at the same number of currently needed diners -- 17 -- as A Voice did. That figure implies 8 diners over current need. I implied, but didn't state outright, that 17 diners in use out of 25 is not a bad number in this case.

We don't know the economics as single-level LD trains with an added sleeper in the make-up. After Amtrak has good data, it has various possibilities, not limited to

1) Add diners to other trains, such as the Pennsylvanian or the Vermonter.

2) Convert the Capitol Ltd. to single-level equipment, and send its cars west.

3) Gut rehab 4 or 5 of the surplus-and-excess diners into sleepers.

When the CAF order was announced, it was 130 cars for $300 million. (Later dollar figures were higher, including spare parts and certain future service from CAF.) We all did the quick and dirty math: $2.3 million per car. Probably much less for baggage cars, and more for diners and sleepers. But let me work with $2.3 million per car.

If A Voice and I are correct that 17 to 19 diners are needed counting spares and the Cardinal, then the "over-order" was 6 or 8 cars. At $2.3 million each, having 6 surplus and excess diners cost Amtrak almost $15 million, while 8 of them "wasted" $18 million or so. That's not a big enuff number to make the news. Remember that Cong Mica had to add up ten years -- 10 years -- of food & beverage losses to get the near-Billion big number to get attention. Less than $100 million lost is just not news in D.C.

But of course, 8 surplus and excess diners don't mean that the whole $18 million is down the drain. The cars can be recycled into sleepers (and bag-dorms) or baggage cars, and come in at a lower cost than the original 25 sleepers or diners. Wanna guess the rehabs cost another $1 million per car? That would be the wasted amount, considering that they were available at $2.3 million each not long ago. No big deal.

So relax everybody. Six or eight extra diners will not derail Amtrak's drive to operating surplus.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Is there any way of knowing what diners are next? Doesn't make much difference, but was just wondering.

We know the 25 diners are the state capital cities east of the Mississippi. An earlier comment in this thread I believe links to them.

http://on-track-on-line.com/amtkrinf-viewname.shtml#viewdiner

We also know that the deliveries started in alphabetical order, but that broke down before reaching Columbus, Concord, Dover, and Frankfort. So we got Hartford and Harrisburg to Hialeah, and Hartford worked this holiday weekend.

Counting the breakdown in alphabetical order as one of 500 things that have gone wrong with this order -- well, you said it: Doesn't make much difference.

I have no inside info. Still, I'm expecting to get Harrisburg out of Hialeah in time to see it work the coming holidays. I'm hoping we get two more diners from CAF before month end.

Then expect CAF to lose a week or two in the cycle out of Elmira due to workers getting days off from the Xmas and New Years holidays.

But as far as any forecast of the diner names in the non-alphabetical order of delivery, I think most of us imagine scenes of near chaos on the "production line" that is years past deadline. So we're grateful when any car emerges in good enuff condition to let Hialeah do the final prep. If Amtrak really only needs 17 or 19 Viewliner diners at this point in time, we're almost halfway there.

 

[A Voice]

Another idle speculation was it might be hard to explain to Congress why you bought 25 cars half of which you had no use for.

This could be a problem Amtrak could well have to address, as somebody will unlock the "Micascope" and the very point Mr. JIS noted will be heard in a Congressional Hearing room:
Congressman to Amtrak official;

"Sir, your company that without our funding could no longer be a going concern, ordered twenty five full service Dining Cars. Yet, as you were placing that order, you had knowledge that the Simplified Dining arrangements that this Committee suggested you initiate, were resulting in significant cost reductions without a corresponding revenue loss. Would you care to explain to the American people your rationale for such a decision?"

Jis, C'mon. "Half" of 25 diners no use for? With 5 each to the Meteor and the Crescent, 4 to the Lake Shore Ltd, assume 3 for back-up, 17 diners will be in use or assigned as soon as we get 17 of them..

The Silver Meteor, Crescent, and Lake Shore Limited combined require just eleven trainsets (hence, diners), plus spares, or indeed about half the purchased fleet. Regardless, the exact numbers - half, two-thirds, whatever - aren't what matters when you're being questioned (by persons critical anyway) over ordering more cars than you have use for.

Twenty-five cars is, just for the sake of argument, about the right number to have a diner on each single-level long-distance train except the Palmetto (17-19 cars, depending on a daily Cardinal).

If A Voice and I are correct that 17 to 19 diners are needed counting spares and the Cardinal, then the "over-order" was 6 or 8 cars. At $2.3 million each, having 6 surplus and excess diners cost Amtrak almost $15 million, while 8 of them "wasted" $18 million or so. That's not a big enuff number to make the news. Remember that Cong Mica had to add up ten years -- 10 years -- of food & beverage losses to get the near-Billion big number to get attention. Less than $100 million lost is just not news in D.C.

The 17-car number would be the number required daily for service on each of the seventeen single-level trainsets (Meteor, Lake Shore, Crescent, and assumes a diner is restored to the Silver Star and added to the Cardinal). Spare cars are necessary to allow for bad-ordered equipment and regular maintenance, which essentially accounts for the remainder. If the diners are fully deployed to eastern long-distance (overnight) trains - which we don't know yet - there was no "over order" and there won't be any excess diners to worry over. Only if 91/92 and the Cardinal remain diner-less, then there would indeed be unneeded cars to potentially be accounted for. Which, of course, was the original point.

 

[west point]

Let us not consider the 26 (or 25 ) diners too many. Previous posts of Capitol & CNO going single level is one possibility. Another is Crescent extending to Ft. Worth.

Speculation --- Unused diners could be substituted for AM-1 lounge cars allowing for old lounge cars life to be extended. Also provides alternative for a diner that goes bad order enroute. When the additional 25 V-2 sleepers arrive in service a second diner may be needed for overflow passengers that can be served from 1st diner. If the SM ( 4 this Thanksgiving sold out ) and Crescent ( probably not until ATL station problem solved )) have many extra sleepers maybe a full second diner will be needed for high traffic times. -------- Speculation ends

 

[cpotisch]

Let us not consider the 26 (or 25 ) diners too many. Previous posts of Capitol & CNO going single level is one possibility. Another is Crescent extending to Ft. Worth.

Speculation --- Unused diners could be substituted for AM-1 lounge cars allowing for old lounge cars life to be extended. Also provides alternative for a diner that goes bad order enroute. When the additional 25 V-2 sleepers arrive in service a second diner may be needed for overflow passengers that can be served from 1st diner. If the SM ( 4 this Thanksgiving sold out ) and Crescent ( probably not until ATL station problem solved )) have many extra sleepers maybe a full second diner will be needed for high traffic times. -------- Speculation ends

What would be the point of a single-level Cap? There are more spare Superliners than Viewliners.

 

[CCC1007]

Let us not consider the 26 (or 25 ) diners too many. Previous posts of Capitol & CNO going single level is one possibility. Another is Crescent extending to Ft. Worth.

Speculation --- Unused diners could be substituted for AM-1 lounge cars allowing for old lounge cars life to be extended. Also provides alternative for a diner that goes bad order enroute. When the additional 25 V-2 sleepers arrive in service a second diner may be needed for overflow passengers that can be served from 1st diner. If the SM ( 4 this Thanksgiving sold out ) and Crescent ( probably not until ATL station problem solved )) have many extra sleepers maybe a full second diner will be needed for high traffic times. -------- Speculation ends

What would be the point of a single-level Cap? There are more spare Superliners than Viewliners.

First, always check your numbers before posting, as there are fewer double deckers (~500) than single level cars (~700).
Second, converting the capital limited would free up some equipment for use on the western trains.

Hope this helps with your understanding of the situation.

 

[Ryan]

How many spares of each do you think Amtrak has, and how do you think that will change with the completion of the VL2 order?

 

[A Voice]

Let us not consider the 26 (or 25 ) diners too many. Previous posts of Capitol & CNO going single level is one possibility. Another is Crescent extending to Ft. Worth.

Speculation --- Unused diners could be substituted for AM-1 lounge cars allowing for old lounge cars life to be extended. Also provides alternative for a diner that goes bad order enroute. When the additional 25 V-2 sleepers arrive in service a second diner may be needed for overflow passengers that can be served from 1st diner. If the SM ( 4 this Thanksgiving sold out ) and Crescent ( probably not until ATL station problem solved )) have many extra sleepers maybe a full second diner will be needed for high traffic times. -------- Speculation ends

What would be the point of a single-level Cap? There are more spare Superliners than Viewliners.

First, always check your numbers before posting, as there are fewer double deckers (~500) than single level cars (~700).
Second, converting the capital limited would free up some equipment for use on the western trains.

Hope this helps with your understanding of the situation.

Key word is "spare" rather than total number of cars extant. Amtrak is indeed more short of single-level cars - and particularly coaches - than it is Superliner equipment.

 

[Thirdrail7]

Similar explanation might be needed for the new baggage cars, as Amtrak has been eliminating checked baggage at more and more stations.

Oh...I'm sure they'll find a use for the leftover space that will justify the purchase.

Perhaps use some of the space to stock a more realistically sufficient quantity and variety of food and beverages?

I can't think of a better place to store food. In a baggage car tat doesn't have a controlled environment...other than closing a door or a few roof vents. I'm sure the FDA would love that.

Oh...I'm sure they'll find a use for the leftover space that will justify the purchase.

Hmm...does that possibly make two M & E hints recently?

Is there any way of knowing what diners are next? Doesn't make much difference, but was just wondering.

When it becomes knowable, the usual suspects will drop hints.

Go back an read the thread an you’ll see them, and get a feel for how long in advance we know.

Given that the next delivery is probably about two weeks out, we’ll probably know something shortly.

Exits almost confirmed.

 

[west point]

345 ? 3 days, 4 cars, 5 ?? no way ? 3 diners, 4 bag dorms, 5 sleepers no not way !!!

 

[CCC1007]

345 ? 3 days, 4 cars, 5 ?? no way ? 3 diners, 4 bag dorms, 5 sleepers no not way !!!

My best guess is the 345th day of the year, or Monday December 11, 2017.

Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum

 

[StriderGDM]

Oh cool, then a slightly late Birthday present for me!

 

[cpotisch]

Let us not consider the 26 (or 25 ) diners too many. Previous posts of Capitol & CNO going single level is one possibility. Another is Crescent extending to Ft. Worth.

Speculation --- Unused diners could be substituted for AM-1 lounge cars allowing for old lounge cars life to be extended. Also provides alternative for a diner that goes bad order enroute. When the additional 25 V-2 sleepers arrive in service a second diner may be needed for overflow passengers that can be served from 1st diner. If the SM ( 4 this Thanksgiving sold out ) and Crescent ( probably not until ATL station problem solved )) have many extra sleepers maybe a full second diner will be needed for high traffic times. -------- Speculation ends

What would be the point of a single-level Cap? There are more spare Superliners than Viewliners.

First, always check your numbers before posting, as there are fewer double deckers (~500) than single level cars (~700).
Second, converting the capital limited would free up some equipment for use on the western trains.

Hope this helps with your understanding of the situation.

Key word is "spare" rather than total number of cars extant. Amtrak is indeed more short of single-level cars - and particularly coaches - than it is Superliner equipment.

Thank you for helping me clarify. That's what I meant.

 

[Ryan]

How many spares of each do you think Amtrak has, and how do you think that will change with the completion of the VL2 order?

My question specified spares and remains valid.

 

[cpotisch]

How many spares of each do you think Amtrak has, and how do you think that will change with the completion of the VL2 order?

My question specified spares and remains valid.

I was just asking what the motivation would be to make the Cap (and CONO) single-level, since currently there aren't many spare Viewliner I sleepers. It will probably be a while until we see the V-II sleepers, so I was asking what the current push towards that would be. Then CCC1007 responded that it would free up equipment on the west coast.

 

[west point]

With the Siemens single level cars to soon be delivered any speculation on how freed up current equipment will be allocated is just that -----Speculation.

 

[tommylicious]

How soon before LSL gets a VLII diner?

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

How soon before LSL gets a VLII diner?

Hold your breath. Talk only, no plans yet. Crew training, mechanical training, and food supplie changes needed first.
Also the last 10 or so pages cover this matter in detail.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

With the Siemens single level cars to soon be delivered any speculation on how freed up current equipment will be allocated is just that -----Speculation.

Running bet is scrap for the horizon cars. The few superliners will find work as spares in Chicago. Unknown about the California Superliners, been wonder if they ever can return to Amtrak after the state rebuilt them.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

How many spares of each do you think Amtrak has, and how do you think that will change with the completion of the VL2 order?

My question specified spares and remains valid.

I was just asking what the motivation would be to make the Cap (and CONO) single-level, since currently there aren't many spare Viewliner I sleepers. It will probably be a while until we see the V-II sleepers, so I was asking what the current push towards that would be. Then CCC1007 responded that it would free up equipment on the west coast.

You're tripping over yourself because you aren't considering the timings. Amtrak is so desperately short of passenger equipment now, that is NOW, that it almost can't make a move. That will begin to change soon, but how much, how soon, and when?

As you note, Amtrak is getting 25 Viewliner-2 diners and sleepers. If no diners are returned to the Star, there'd be enuff to outfit three new trainsets for the Capitol Ltd plus a spare.

Except, of course, there'd be a need for sleepers. But at the tail end of the CAF order, after the existing Eastern LD trains each get an additional sleeper, there'd be enuff new Viewliner sleepers for new Capitol Ltd trains.

Let's see. Deliveries of the remaining V-2 diners will take us deep into 2018. Then probably a pause before deliveries of the next car type begin. So 10 bag-dorms could take us into early 2019. Delivery of two (2) V-2 sleepers a month seems optimistic, but even at that rate, the CAF order won't be finished until 2021, or later.

Even so, expect further delays beyond the last V-2 delivered. Amtrak will have to make various calculations, such as estimating the usable life remaining on the current fleet of 50 Viewliner-1 sleepers. One possibility would be to rehab and upgrade the V-1s to V-2 standards, removing the in-roomette toilets and ensuring they can run at 125 mph. With 50 cars in the fleet, if the upgraded cars roll out of Beech Grove (or wherever) at two per month like the V-2s out of Elmira, we're looking at two more years before Amtrak has the full Viewliner fleet in good working order. So 2023?

Well, nice thing about 2023 for getting a few spare Viewliners, is that the Siemens order for 137 single-level cars could begin arriving about the same time. A few Siemens cars could displace the handful of odd Amfleets doing stop-gap work in the Midwest and California. The displaced Amfleets would go east, and could potentially be used in those new trainsets we were putting together for the Capitol Ltd route.

The Siemens order will displace about 90 or so Horizon cars from the Midwest. Without much cost, some could be buffed up to use instead of the three or four pieces of Superliner equipment on the Heartland Flyer (Oklahoma City-Ft Worth). If or when enuff Superliner equipment can be scrounged, several sets may be needed for the proposal to run daily on the Texas Eagle route (CHI-San Antonio) continuing on the Sunset Ltd route to L.A. That change would leave New Orleans-Houston-San Antonio served by a corridor shuttle that would also use Horizon cars, while the Superliner cars that used to run here would be running CHI-L.A.

The elephants in the room are the orders to replace ~700 single-level cars and ~500 bilevels. Billions of dollars. If doing two multi-Billion equipment orders at the same time seems to be just too much, it's easy to imagine the single-level order being judged more urgent. In that event, enuff new single-level cars could join the fleet to complete those three trains (plus spares) to serve the Capitol Ltd route; the Cap's Superliners would be sent west where they would still be waiting their turn for new equipment. Likewise for the City of New Orleans.

So when is this going to happen? Was that what you were asking? LOL. Every step is speculative. But it does seem possible that Amtrak is a few steps -- a few Billions and a few years -- away from actually having enuff equipment for the first time in its history.