What would you add?

[ainamkartma]

agreed, if those routes haven't been reinstated after almost 46 years, it won't be happening. After 5/1/1971, politicians tried to reinstate routes in their territories. The North Coast Hiawatha was reinstated with support of Mike Mansfield. The Shenandoan and the Mountaineer were reinstated across West Virginia with the support of Robert Byrd and Harley Stagers. These routes were later discontinued due to budget constraints.

The Lake Shore Limited was reinstated and it stuck. Better fundamentals.

Can you teach me some history? I didn't know there was ever a (modern) time when there wasn't NYC-Chicago passenger service via the water level route. That seems utterly absurd, since the fundamentals, as you point out, are so good.

So was there a gap between the ending of the 20th Century Limited (or whatever train) and the starting of the LSL, and if so, when was it?

(I grew up on within earshot of the Hudson Line, so the passing trains on their way to and from the north and west were part of my childhood.)

Thanks,

Ainamkartma

 

[looshi]

The water level route was not included in the initial system in '71. Instead the PRR route was selected. It was brought back as a state-supported train with New York and Ohio sharing the cost. When Ohio dropped out a few years later it was retained by Amtrak as part of the national system.

Incidentally, there were plans to split the train at Cleveland and run a section through Columbus to Cincinnati, but these discussions ended when Ohio withdrew support. It's an interesting counter-factual to think about if that had happened. There would probably be more potential infrastructure for a potential 3C corridor.

 

[Eric S]

The 20th Century Limited was discontinued before Amtrak but there was other NYC/PC service on the route until Amtrak Day. The Lake Shore Limited route was not included in the initial basic Amtrak system and there were a few days at the start of Amtrak with no service. Service was returned (as the "Lake Shore") between Chicago and New York in 1971-1972 with some state operating support. Then was restored in 1975 (as the "Lake Shore Limited") between Chicago and New York/Boston.

EDIT: So, to directly and more clearly answer the question, there was a short gap in service on the route in 1971 and then again from 1972 to 1975.

 

[ainamkartma]

The 20th Century Limited was discontinued before Amtrak but there was other NYC/PC service on the route until Amtrak Day. The Lake Shore Limited route was not included in the initial basic Amtrak system and there were a few days at the start of Amtrak with no service. Service was returned (as the "Lake Shore") between Chicago and New York in 1971-1972 with some state operating support. Then was restored in 1975 (as the "Lake Shore Limited") between Chicago and New York/Boston.

EDIT: So, to directly and more clearly answer the question, there was a short gap in service on the route in 1971 and then again from 1972 to 1975.

Thanks all!

Did Amtrak run the Empire Service at the time? Were the Empire Service levels similar to today's?

I (possibly incorrectly) remember that the commuter service on the Hudson Line prior to the formation of Metro-North was simply horrible: bad timekeeping, unwashed cars, no through trains past Croton-Harmon.

Ainamkartma

 

[jis]

This thread reminds me of the band that continued playing even as the Titanic sank into freezing water.

Eventually only gurgling sounds emanating from it

 

[jis]

The 20th Century Limited was discontinued before Amtrak but there was other NYC/PC service on the route until Amtrak Day. The Lake Shore Limited route was not included in the initial basic Amtrak system and there were a few days at the start of Amtrak with no service. Service was returned (as the "Lake Shore") between Chicago and New York in 1971-1972 with some state operating support. Then was restored in 1975 (as the "Lake Shore Limited") between Chicago and New York/Boston.

EDIT: So, to directly and more clearly answer the question, there was a short gap in service on the route in 1971 and then again from 1972 to 1975.

Thanks all!

Did Amtrak run the Empire Service at the time? Were the Empire Service levels similar to today's?

I (possibly incorrectly) remember that the commuter service on the Hudson Line prior to the formation of Metro-North was simply horrible: bad timekeeping, unwashed cars, no through trains past Croton-Harmon.

Ainamkartma

Amtrak ran service to Buffalo/Niagara Falls from day one.
Indeed PC Commuter Service was never better than horrible in most cases. There were minor exceptions I am told.

 

[railgeekteen]

Extended the Downeaster to Augusta and Bangor, and eventually to Atlantic Canada.

 

[railiner]

The 20th Century Limited was discontinued before Amtrak but there was other NYC/PC service on the route until Amtrak Day. The Lake Shore Limited route was not included in the initial basic Amtrak system and there were a few days at the start of Amtrak with no service. Service was returned (as the "Lake Shore") between Chicago and New York in 1971-1972 with some state operating support. Then was restored in 1975 (as the "Lake Shore Limited") between Chicago and New York/Boston.

EDIT: So, to directly and more clearly answer the question, there was a short gap in service on the route in 1971 and then again from 1972 to 1975.

Thanks all!

Did Amtrak run the Empire Service at the time? Were the Empire Service levels similar to today's?

I (possibly incorrectly) remember that the commuter service on the Hudson Line prior to the formation of Metro-North was simply horrible: bad timekeeping, unwashed cars, no through trains past Croton-Harmon.

Ainamkartma

Amtrak ran service to Buffalo/Niagara Falls from day one.
Indeed PC Commuter Service was never better than horrible in most cases. There were minor exceptions I am told.

Amtrak ran as far as Buffalo (the old Central Terminal) from the beginning, but as was mentioned in Eric S's post above, there was that "gap period", when that was as far as Amtrak ran.

Amtrak did have a cross-platform connection with a train, usually Rail Diesel Cars, operated from Buffalo to Toronto by Penn Central (later Conrail); Toronto, Hamilton, & Buffalo; and Canadian Pacific, via Fort Erie, Welland and Hamilton.

Later, besides the 'Lake Shore' train, Amtrak extended the Empire State Express from Buffalo to Detroit. Later, they renamed it the Niagara Rainbow, but it did not actually go thru Niagara Falls until October of 1978, and then it ended service altogether in 1979. Amtrak used the name in the '90's for a briefly operated once a week overnite train to Toronto.

In 1981, Amtrak started thru service together with VIA Rail from New York to Toronto, via Buffalo Exchange Street, and Niagara Fall, NY and Ont, then the CN route to Toronto.

It is interesting to note, that when the Lake Shore was extended by funding from New York and Ohio, Pennsylvania declined to contribute, and as a search of old TT's show, the train did not stop in Erie...

 

[railgeekteen]

The 20th Century Limited was discontinued before Amtrak but there was other NYC/PC service on the route until Amtrak Day. The Lake Shore Limited route was not included in the initial basic Amtrak system and there were a few days at the start of Amtrak with no service. Service was returned (as the "Lake Shore") between Chicago and New York in 1971-1972 with some state operating support. Then was restored in 1975 (as the "Lake Shore Limited") between Chicago and New York/Boston.

EDIT: So, to directly and more clearly answer the question, there was a short gap in service on the route in 1971 and then again from 1972 to 1975.

Thanks all!

Did Amtrak run the Empire Service at the time? Were the Empire Service levels similar to today's?

I (possibly incorrectly) remember that the commuter service on the Hudson Line prior to the formation of Metro-North was simply horrible: bad timekeeping, unwashed cars, no through trains past Croton-Harmon.

Ainamkartma

Amtrak ran service to Buffalo/Niagara Falls from day one.
Indeed PC Commuter Service was never better than horrible in most cases. There were minor exceptions I am told.

Amtrak ran as far as Buffalo (the old Central Terminal) from the beginning, but as was mentioned in Eric S's post above, there was that "gap period", when that was as far as Amtrak ran.

Amtrak did have a cross-platform connection with a train, usually Rail Diesel Cars, operated from Buffalo to Toronto by Penn Central (later Conrail); Toronto, Hamilton, & Buffalo; and Canadian Pacific, via Fort Erie, Welland and Hamilton.

Later, besides the 'Lake Shore' train, Amtrak extended the Empire State Express from Buffalo to Detroit. Later, they renamed it the Niagara Rainbow, but it did not actually go thru Niagara Falls until October of 1978, and then it ended service altogether in 1979. Amtrak used the name in the '90's for a briefly operated once a week overnite train to Toronto.

In 1981, Amtrak started thru service together with VIA Rail from New York to Toronto, via Buffalo Exchange Street, and Niagara Fall, NY and Ont, then the CN route to Toronto.

It is interesting to note, that when the Lake Shore was extended by funding from New York and Ohio, Pennsylvania declined to contribute, and as a search of old TT's show, the train did not stop in Erie...

Surprising that they actually skipped a stop. The Downeaster never even considered doing that.

 

[railiner]

The 20th Century Limited was discontinued before Amtrak but there was other NYC/PC service on the route until Amtrak Day. The Lake Shore Limited route was not included in the initial basic Amtrak system and there were a few days at the start of Amtrak with no service. Service was returned (as the "Lake Shore") between Chicago and New York in 1971-1972 with some state operating support. Then was restored in 1975 (as the "Lake Shore Limited") between Chicago and New York/Boston.

EDIT: So, to directly and more clearly answer the question, there was a short gap in service on the route in 1971 and then again from 1972 to 1975.

Thanks all!

Did Amtrak run the Empire Service at the time? Were the Empire Service levels similar to today's?

I (possibly incorrectly) remember that the commuter service on the Hudson Line prior to the formation of Metro-North was simply horrible: bad timekeeping, unwashed cars, no through trains past Croton-Harmon.

Ainamkartma

Amtrak ran service to Buffalo/Niagara Falls from day one.
Indeed PC Commuter Service was never better than horrible in most cases. There were minor exceptions I am told.

Amtrak ran as far as Buffalo (the old Central Terminal) from the beginning, but as was mentioned in Eric S's post above, there was that "gap period", when that was as far as Amtrak ran.

Amtrak did have a cross-platform connection with a train, usually Rail Diesel Cars, operated from Buffalo to Toronto by Penn Central (later Conrail); Toronto, Hamilton, & Buffalo; and Canadian Pacific, via Fort Erie, Welland and Hamilton.

Later, besides the 'Lake Shore' train, Amtrak extended the Empire State Express from Buffalo to Detroit. Later, they renamed it the Niagara Rainbow, but it did not actually go thru Niagara Falls until October of 1978, and then it ended service altogether in 1979. Amtrak used the name in the '90's for a briefly operated once a week overnite train to Toronto.

In 1981, Amtrak started thru service together with VIA Rail from New York to Toronto, via Buffalo Exchange Street, and Niagara Fall, NY and Ont, then the CN route to Toronto.

It is interesting to note, that when the Lake Shore was extended by funding from New York and Ohio, Pennsylvania declined to contribute, and as a search of old TT's show, the train did not stop in Erie...

Surprising that they actually skipped a stop. The Downeaster never even considered doing that.

Yes and no....why should they let Pennsylvania get the benefit of a "free ride", and not contribute at least a token amount for the one stop? On the other hand, that stop was the only stop in PA, and the stop would have produced some additional revenue for the train, and if unstaffed, not much additional cost....

 

[railgeekteen]

The 20th Century Limited was discontinued before Amtrak but there was other NYC/PC service on the route until Amtrak Day. The Lake Shore Limited route was not included in the initial basic Amtrak system and there were a few days at the start of Amtrak with no service. Service was returned (as the "Lake Shore") between Chicago and New York in 1971-1972 with some state operating support. Then was restored in 1975 (as the "Lake Shore Limited") between Chicago and New York/Boston.

EDIT: So, to directly and more clearly answer the question, there was a short gap in service on the route in 1971 and then again from 1972 to 1975.

Thanks all!

Did Amtrak run the Empire Service at the time? Were the Empire Service levels similar to today's?

I (possibly incorrectly) remember that the commuter service on the Hudson Line prior to the formation of Metro-North was simply horrible: bad timekeeping, unwashed cars, no through trains past Croton-Harmon.

Ainamkartma

Amtrak ran service to Buffalo/Niagara Falls from day one.
Indeed PC Commuter Service was never better than horrible in most cases. There were minor exceptions I am told.

Amtrak ran as far as Buffalo (the old Central Terminal) from the beginning, but as was mentioned in Eric S's post above, there was that "gap period", when that was as far as Amtrak ran.

Amtrak did have a cross-platform connection with a train, usually Rail Diesel Cars, operated from Buffalo to Toronto by Penn Central (later Conrail); Toronto, Hamilton, & Buffalo; and Canadian Pacific, via Fort Erie, Welland and Hamilton.

Later, besides the 'Lake Shore' train, Amtrak extended the Empire State Express from Buffalo to Detroit. Later, they renamed it the Niagara Rainbow, but it did not actually go thru Niagara Falls until October of 1978, and then it ended service altogether in 1979. Amtrak used the name in the '90's for a briefly operated once a week overnite train to Toronto.

In 1981, Amtrak started thru service together with VIA Rail from New York to Toronto, via Buffalo Exchange Street, and Niagara Fall, NY and Ont, then the CN route to Toronto.

It is interesting to note, that when the Lake Shore was extended by funding from New York and Ohio, Pennsylvania declined to contribute, and as a search of old TT's show, the train did not stop in Erie...

Surprising that they actually skipped a stop. The Downeaster never even considered doing that.

Yes and no....why should they let Pennsylvania get the benefit of a "free ride", and not contribute at least a token amount for the one stop? On the other hand, that stop was the only stop in PA, and the stop would have produced some additional revenue for the train, and if unstaffed, not much additional cost....

Why did the Downeaster never do that?

 

[jis]

Why did the Downeaster never do that?

Because the folks who manage the Downeaster decided not to.

 

[Eric S]

If stopping at station X improves the train's bottom line, perhaps skipping a stop out of spite is not the best course of action.

 

[jis]

It all depends on what interests the stakeholders and users of the system. For example, New York does not contribute anything to NJT's budget for it to stop in New York Penn Station

, while MNRR pays NJT to operate the west of Hudson commuter service in New York State on their behalf.

 

[Palmetto]

Back to the Downeaster: if NNEPRA were to decide to skip any one of the three New Hampshire stations [and some people have suggested they do, given that NH contributes zero to the service], the amount of income would probably take a pretty good hit. The simple fact of the matter is those three stops contribute a lot to the bottom line.

 

[railgeekteen]

The coast of these two states is unserved by Amtrak. There should be a train down to Salisbury via Dover.

MODERATOR NOTE: This thread (Coastal Delaware and Maryland) was merged with the existing topic regarding "adding trains."

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Mextrak. Mexico lacks passenger trains, besides Copper Canyon, and a few trains around Mexico City.

 

[Pere Flyer]

Mextrak. Mexico lacks passenger trains, besides Copper Canyon, and a few trains around Mexico City.

Agreed. Amtrak should follow Greyhound’s lead in providing service to at least those Mexican cities near the border.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

 

[neroden]

Given the complete insanity and maliciousness of the Border Patrol and ICE behavior at the Canadian border, can you imagine how they'd act at the Canadian border?

Mexico can't even get the US to cooperate on the *foot crossing* at Tijuana. :-(

 

[railgeekteen]

Given the complete insanity and maliciousness of the Border Patrol and ICE behavior at the Canadian border, can you imagine how they'd act at the Canadian border?

Mexico can't even get the US to cooperate on the *foot crossing* at Tijuana. :-(

Then how does Greyhound manage?

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Have they finished that overpass from Mexico to Canada yet?

https://politics.theonion.com/u-s-protests-mexi-canadian-overpass-1819566460

 

[Bob Dylan]

Given the complete insanity and maliciousness of the Border Patrol and ICE behavior at the Canadian border, can you imagine how they'd act at the Canadian border?

Mexico can't even get the US to cooperate on the *foot crossing* at Tijuana. :-(

That's because all Mexicans coming here are "..Rapists and Criminals!.."

 

[railgeekteen]

The San Joaquin trains should be extended to LA to give more than 1 daily train between LA and the bay area.

 

[Anthony V]

The San Joaquin trains should be extended to LA to give more than 1 daily train between LA and the bay area.

That won't happen because UP would fight it tooth and nail due to the extremely heavy freight traffic over the Tehachapi Pass. In addition, the current Thruway bus connection is much faster than the route over the Tehachapi Pass. OTOH, if/when the California HSR is built between BFD and LAX, then we may finally get passenger trains between those two cities.

 

[railgeekteen]

The San Joaquin trains should be extended to LA to give more than 1 daily train between LA and the bay area.

That won't happen because UP would fight it tooth and nail due to the extremely heavy freight traffic over the Tehachapi Pass. In addition, the current Thruway bus connection is much faster than the route over the Tehachapi Pass. OTOH, if/when the California HSR is built between BFD and LAX, then we may finally get passenger trains between those two cities.

Could the pass be renovated to add more capacity?