What would you add?

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

If I were going to extend the HF southbound, I'd be more interested in going to Houston via Dallas so we can pick up new train service rather than a second frequency of something we already have. The Texas Eagle used to run between DAL and HOS before: http://timetables.org/full.php?group=19941030n&item=0031. If we can pick up that route, we'd have direct service between Dallas and Houston.

 

[railiner]

If I were going to extend the HF southbound, I'd be more interested in going to Houston via Dallas so we can pick up new train service rather than a second frequency of something we already have. The Texas Eagle used to run between DAL and HOS before: http://timetables.org/full.php?group=19941030n&item=0031. If we can pick up that route, we'd have direct service between Dallas and Houston.

Wow...there was some "serious" padding between Dallas and Houston on that schedule....I doubt they would have attracted much local traffic with those running times...

 

[cpotisch]

If I were going to extend the HF southbound, I'd be more interested in going to Houston via Dallas so we can pick up new train service rather than a second frequency of something we already have. The Texas Eagle used to run between DAL and HOS before: http://timetables.org/full.php?group=19941030n&item=0031. If we can pick up that route, we'd have direct service between Dallas and Houston.

Wow...there was some "serious" padding between Dallas and Houston on that schedule....I doubt they would have attracted much local traffic with those running times...

Really? It looks like it took about seven and a half hours to get from Dallas to Houston. Is that not a reasonably running time? (I'm not familiar with Texas geography)

 

[ainamkartma]

If I were going to extend the HF southbound, I'd be more interested in going to Houston via Dallas so we can pick up new train service rather than a second frequency of something we already have. The Texas Eagle used to run between DAL and HOS before: http://timetables.org/full.php?group=19941030n&item=0031. If we can pick up that route, we'd have direct service between Dallas and Houston.

Wow...there was some "serious" padding between Dallas and Houston on that schedule....I doubt they would have attracted much local traffic with those running times...

Really? It looks like it took about seven and a half hours to get from Dallas to Houston. Is that not a reasonably running time? (I'm not familiar with Texas geography)

Well over double the driving time, FWIW. You can drive and get there by lunch, or take the train and get there by dinner...

Ainamkartma

 

[Devil's Advocate]

If I were going to extend the HF southbound, I'd be more interested in going to Houston via Dallas so we can pick up new train service rather than a second frequency of something we already have. The Texas Eagle used to run between DAL and HOS before: http://timetables.org/full.php?group=19941030n&item=0031. If we can pick up that route, we'd have direct service between Dallas and Houston.

Wow...there was some "serious" padding between Dallas and Houston on that schedule....I doubt they would have attracted much local traffic with those running times...

Really? It looks like it took about seven and a half hours to get from Dallas to Houston. Is that not a reasonably running time? (I'm not familiar with Texas geography)

Well over double the driving time, FWIW. You can drive and get there by lunch, or take the train and get there by dinner...Ainamkartma

Unless there's a traffic jam, accident, or construction related slowdown, Texans will drive around 80MPH on interstates between major cities. That can make it hard for Amtrak to compete across long distances.

 

[CCC1007]

If I were going to extend the HF southbound, I'd be more interested in going to Houston via Dallas so we can pick up new train service rather than a second frequency of something we already have. The Texas Eagle used to run between DAL and HOS before: http://timetables.org/full.php?group=19941030n&item=0031. If we can pick up that route, we'd have direct service between Dallas and Houston.

Wow...there was some "serious" padding between Dallas and Houston on that schedule....I doubt they would have attracted much local traffic with those running times...

Really? It looks like it took about seven and a half hours to get from Dallas to Houston. Is that not a reasonably running time? (I'm not familiar with Texas geography)

Well over double the driving time, FWIW. You can drive and get there by lunch, or take the train and get there by dinner...Ainamkartma

Unless there's a traffic jam, accident, or construction related slowdown, Texans will drive around 80MPH on interstates between major cities. That can make it hard for Amtrak to compete across long distances.

That isn’t just Texas...

 

[cpotisch]

If I were going to extend the HF southbound, I'd be more interested in going to Houston via Dallas so we can pick up new train service rather than a second frequency of something we already have. The Texas Eagle used to run between DAL and HOS before: http://timetables.org/full.php?group=19941030n&item=0031. If we can pick up that route, we'd have direct service between Dallas and Houston.

Wow...there was some "serious" padding between Dallas and Houston on that schedule....I doubt they would have attracted much local traffic with those running times...

Really? It looks like it took about seven and a half hours to get from Dallas to Houston. Is that not a reasonably running time? (I'm not familiar with Texas geography)

Well over double the driving time, FWIW. You can drive and get there by lunch, or take the train and get there by dinner...

Ainamkartma

Well that's pretty common for Amtrak. The Coast Starlight takes almost twelve hours to get from Los Angeles to the Bay Area, whereas you can drive that distance in less than six hours. Doesn't seem too odd to me.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Considering College Station-Bryan was in the middle, I would think it would have been popular with Texas A&M students going to/from both Dallas and Houston.

 

[railiner]

Actually, to be 'fair', I was comparing it to this http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track9/sunbeam195008.html

and to this http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track9/samhouzeph195008.html

the latter in as little as 4 hours flat, just from Dallas to Houston....

 

[cpotisch]

Actually, to be 'fair', I was comparing it to this http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track9/sunbeam195008.html

and to this http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track9/samhouzeph195008.html

the latter in as little as 4 hours flat, just from Dallas to Houston....

That's especially impressive when you look at how many stops those made between Dallas and Houston. 26 intermediate stops on that first one and 23 intermediate stops on the second one.

 

[ehbowen]

If I were going to extend the HF southbound, I'd be more interested in going to Houston via Dallas so we can pick up new train service rather than a second frequency of something we already have. The Texas Eagle used to run between DAL and HOS before: http://timetables.org/full.php?group=19941030n&item=0031. If we can pick up that route, we'd have direct service between Dallas and Houston.

Wow...there was some "serious" padding between Dallas and Houston on that schedule....I doubt they would have attracted much local traffic with those running times...

Really? It looks like it took about seven and a half hours to get from Dallas to Houston. Is that not a reasonably running time? (I'm not familiar with Texas geography)

Three-quarters of a century ago, the running time between downtown Dallas and downtown Houston was four hours. You even had your choice of three railroads on two completely separate routes.

Edit To Add: I see Railiner beat me to it. But to clarify: The express routes didn't make many stops. The Sunbeam made two flag stops, only...College Station and Ennis. The Zephyr and the Twin Star Rocket stopped only at Teague, Corsicana and Waxahachie. It was the local mail train (which didn't go all the way to Dallas, due to trackage rights restrictions) which made all the stops on the Burlington-Rock Island route and the six-hour Hustler which made local stops on the SP line.

 

[NSC1109]

Reroute the LSL via the Michigan Line and Canada to Boston. Forget splitting at Albany. Shorter station stop will shorten the running time. Also, this will be a SECURED TRAIN while traveling through Canada to expedite the border-crossing process. The goal is to give customs officials at Niagara Falls a full list of passengers and crew ahead of time so the passengers can be checked against the list and the train can receive a quick inspection before re-entering the US instead of a long, drawn-out process that killed off the International.

Sorry, you're suggesting that the LSL be routed through Canada, and instead of splitting at ALB, it should only run to Boston? Why? That would mean two border crossings each way, and would cut out NYP through passengers, which make up vastly more of the LSL ridership than the Boston section. And remember that train lengths into South Station are relatively limited, so you would have to significantly reduce the consist and capacity, as they're doing this summer. I just don't see how this change would make any sense.

Sorry it took me so long to reply. I didn’t know of the constraints at Boston, so I will change it in an update soon.

Thanks!

 

[NSC1109]

On a different note(and onto Midwest regional trains out of Chicago), I wonder if there's ever any chance that the Hoosier State could possibly be extended east from Indy to Cincinnati, if the Cardinal doesn't become a daily train anytime soon? I wish daily service would finally happen for Cardinal and the Sunset, but part of me worries that won't occur anytime soon. At least it won't occur now, during the Trump administration I suspect.

And I think what NSC means, is that with this secured train proposal through southern Ontario, the LSL will run straight from Niagara Falls, NY to Port Huron, MI WITHOUT doing a single passenger stop and that it'd run express till it got to Michigan. That's what he/she meant, that it'd cut out the travel time going through PA and OH and IN and go straight to Michigan. Which I know MIDOT has long wanted to see occur, one of the long distance trains go through Michigan once again. Since years ago there used to be one of those Michigan trains that'd start/end their run in Toledo, OH, and that MIDOT obviously wants that back. I'm not in favor of ending the splitting/connecting the train cars of LSL in Albany/Rensselaer, since to me that seems like a good idea to continue doing.

Reroute the LSL via the Michigan Line and Canada to Boston. Forget splitting at Albany. Shorter station stop will shorten the running time. Also, this will be a SECURED TRAIN while traveling through Canada to expedite the border-crossing process. The goal is to give customs officials at Niagara Falls a full list of passengers and crew ahead of time so the passengers can be checked against the list and the train can receive a quick inspection before re-entering the US instead of a long, drawn-out process that killed off the International.

Sorry, you're suggesting that the LSL be routed through Canada, and instead of splitting at ALB, it should only run to Boston? Why? That would mean two border crossings each way, and would cut out NYP through passengers, which make up vastly more of the LSL ridership than the Boston section. And remember that train lengths into South Station are relatively limited, so you would have to significantly reduce the consist and capacity, as they're doing this summer. I just don't see how this change would make any sense.

That is pretty much what I meant, except it would enter Canada in Windsor and Niagra Falls, as that would allow the train to tap into the Ann Arbor and Detroit markets. I would also advocate for a third long-distance service that's Chicago-Boston directly, so as to not split the cars in Albany but keep service. The LSL would run Chicago-NYC, as that is where the majority of the riders go anyway.

Not splitting in Albany is to reduce the station stop time and the overall running time.

 

[neroden]

Unfortunately, (a) the Canada Southern line has actually been ripped up, meaning that the available routes through Canada is significantly out of the way and much slower than they used to be, and are caught in a mess of freight and passenger traffic, (b) Detroit station isn't on the line to Canada (though Dearborn is), and © Cleveland and Toledo actually have a lot of ridership.

If the CASO had been retained, it would be a different matter, but as it is you'd have to detour through London and Hamilton. The route's full of traffic and full of curves, and mostly owned by CN, who is notoriously uncooperative. I believe it would require major capital improvements in Canada, which isn't going to happen unless the route is bought by GO or VIA.

 

[railgeekteen]

I’m not sure if this reroute has been previously floated, but I’d really like to see the Heartland Flyer become a KCY-Tulsa-OKC-FTW-SAS train. That route would require new track at least Tulsa-Stillwater-OKC but would serve new markets in Tulsa, OSU-Stillwater, and points in between. It would connect West Missouri, Northeast/Central/Southern Oklahoma, and North/Central/South Texas directly and would allow a one-seat ride between Big 12 schools in Stillwater, Norman, Fort Worth, Waco (indirectly), and Austin.

With the extension, the Texas Eagle would be rerouted west of FTW and terminated in ELP, serving Abilene, Midland-Odessa, and other points in between. Nos. 421 and 422 would connect with Nos. 1 and 2, respectively, at ELP. Nos. 1 and 2 would operate the normal route.

These reroutes would eliminate no markets and gain 4 big markets in Tulsa, Stillwater, Abilene, and Midland-Odessa.

Might as well make it a Chicago-SAS train and kinda sorta bring back the lone star.

 

[ehbowen]

I’m not sure if this reroute has been previously floated, but I’d really like to see the Heartland Flyer become a KCY-Tulsa-OKC-FTW-SAS train. That route would require new track at least Tulsa-Stillwater-OKC but would serve new markets in Tulsa, OSU-Stillwater, and points in between. It would connect West Missouri, Northeast/Central/Southern Oklahoma, and North/Central/South Texas directly and would allow a one-seat ride between Big 12 schools in Stillwater, Norman, Fort Worth, Waco (indirectly), and Austin.

With the extension, the Texas Eagle would be rerouted west of FTW and terminated in ELP, serving Abilene, Midland-Odessa, and other points in between. Nos. 421 and 422 would connect with Nos. 1 and 2, respectively, at ELP. Nos. 1 and 2 would operate the normal route.

These reroutes would eliminate no markets and gain 4 big markets in Tulsa, Stillwater, Abilene, and Midland-Odessa.

Might as well make it a Chicago-SAS train and kinda sorta bring back the lone star.

I really like the idea of keeping the current CHI-STL-DAL-FTW-SAS Texas Eagle and then adding a completely separate CHI-KCY-OKC-FTW-HOS Lone Star (or Texas Chief!) with a reconnect between them scheduled in FTW both ways.

 

[cpotisch]

I’m not sure if this reroute has been previously floated, but I’d really like to see the Heartland Flyer become a KCY-Tulsa-OKC-FTW-SAS train. That route would require new track at least Tulsa-Stillwater-OKC but would serve new markets in Tulsa, OSU-Stillwater, and points in between. It would connect West Missouri, Northeast/Central/Southern Oklahoma, and North/Central/South Texas directly and would allow a one-seat ride between Big 12 schools in Stillwater, Norman, Fort Worth, Waco (indirectly), and Austin.

With the extension, the Texas Eagle would be rerouted west of FTW and terminated in ELP, serving Abilene, Midland-Odessa, and other points in between. Nos. 421 and 422 would connect with Nos. 1 and 2, respectively, at ELP. Nos. 1 and 2 would operate the normal route.

These reroutes would eliminate no markets and gain 4 big markets in Tulsa, Stillwater, Abilene, and Midland-Odessa.

Might as well make it a Chicago-SAS train and kinda sorta bring back the lone star.

I really like the idea of keeping the current CHI-STL-DAL-FTW-SAS Texas Eagle and then adding a completely separate CHI-KCY-OKC-FTW-HOS Lone Star (or Texas Chief!) with a reconnect between them scheduled in FTW both ways.

Why not just have a CHI-KCY-OKS-FTW train with through service to the Eagle?

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

My first Texas priority would be establishing some sort of CHI-DAL-HOS service like the old Lone Star. I think the best idea would be to have a split off the SWC and have it overlap the current HF route.

 

[ehbowen]

I’m not sure if this reroute has been previously floated, but I’d really like to see the Heartland Flyer become a KCY-Tulsa-OKC-FTW-SAS train. That route would require new track at least Tulsa-Stillwater-OKC but would serve new markets in Tulsa, OSU-Stillwater, and points in between. It would connect West Missouri, Northeast/Central/Southern Oklahoma, and North/Central/South Texas directly and would allow a one-seat ride between Big 12 schools in Stillwater, Norman, Fort Worth, Waco (indirectly), and Austin.

With the extension, the Texas Eagle would be rerouted west of FTW and terminated in ELP, serving Abilene, Midland-Odessa, and other points in between. Nos. 421 and 422 would connect with Nos. 1 and 2, respectively, at ELP. Nos. 1 and 2 would operate the normal route.

These reroutes would eliminate no markets and gain 4 big markets in Tulsa, Stillwater, Abilene, and Midland-Odessa.

Might as well make it a Chicago-SAS train and kinda sorta bring back the lone star.

I really like the idea of keeping the current CHI-STL-DAL-FTW-SAS Texas Eagle and then adding a completely separate CHI-KCY-OKC-FTW-HOS Lone Star (or Texas Chief!) with a reconnect between them scheduled in FTW both ways.

Why not just have a CHI-KCY-OKS-FTW train with through service to the Eagle?

Because I think that the fourth largest city in the nation should have more than a single east-west passenger train which runs only three days a week. The market is there...hey, Santa Fe was willing to keep operating it on their own hook if only they could have shed some of their excess baggage elsewhere...the tracks are still good, and the region is crying for more and better service.

Edit To Add: Yes, I'm biased. I live here and would prefer an option other than four hours on a bus to start and end any trips heading north and south.

 

[AutoTrDvr]

I honestly don't know what I'd add. Because, at this point, I can only look at it through my own "rose colored glasses" and see what might benefit me. Not sure what might benefit others. That said, I definitely would like to see:

1) Original Broadway Ltd. fully restored (and I do mean original: CHI-->Gary-->Valpraiso-->Ft. Wayne ---> Lima --> Crestline --->Canton ---> Pittsburgh, --> Greendburg ---> Johnstown -->Altoona, etc. etc.).

2) No other current LD routes cut.

Additionally, it would be great to see:

1) More "Auto Train" routes - As Sanford is a hub (for Orlando, and "The Rodent",

etc.), maybe Las Vegas would be another - so LAX --> LAS, or Portland to Vegas, Denver to Vegas, or Dallas to Vegas, etc. Things that will work as well as LOR-->SAN

2) New "High Speed" (Shinkansen level) routes where appropriate and profitable.. Again, Las Vegas is probably a good hub from which to build spokes (LAX, Salt Lake City, Denver, Portland Or. etc.).

But I guess it would really depend on where there is current demand or potential demand (i.e. people who might switch from driving or quick flights to train travel) if more feasible and/or economical).

 

[ehbowen]

I'd like to see us get to the point where we move from potential customers asking, "Can I take a train to get there?" to, "Which train do I take to get there?"

 

[NSC1109]

Chicago Hub:

Bluegrass: Chicago - Indianapolis - Louisville

Buckeye: Detroit - Toledo - Columbus

Cincinnatian: Detroit - Toledo - Cincinnati

Cuyahoga Valley: Chicago - Toledo - Cleveland

Iowan: Chicago - Davenport - Cedar Rapids

Queen City Limited: Chicago - Indianapolis - Cincinnati

 

[railiner]

Bluegrass: Chicago - Indianapolis - Louisville

Buckeye: Detroit - Toledo - Columbus

Cincinnatian: Detroit - Toledo - Cincinnati

Cuyahoga Valley: Chicago - Toledo - Cleveland

Pioneer Zephyr: Chicago - Davenport - Cedar Rapids

Queen City Limited: Chicago - Indianapolis - Cincinnati

Pretty good name/route matches....except for the Chicago-Davenport-Cedar Rapids one....maybe more appropriate to call it, "Hawkeye Rocket" or something like that?

 

[cpotisch]

Bluegrass: Chicago - Indianapolis - Louisville

Buckeye: Detroit - Toledo - Columbus

Cincinnatian: Detroit - Toledo - Cincinnati

Cuyahoga Valley: Chicago - Toledo - Cleveland

Pioneer Zephyr: Chicago - Davenport - Cedar Rapids

Queen City Limited: Chicago - Indianapolis - Cincinnati

Pretty good name/route matches....except for the Chicago-Davenport-Cedar Rapids one....maybe more appropriate to call it, "Hawkeye Rocket" or something like that?

How 'bout something along the lines of "the Iowan" or "Iowa Zephyr"?

 

[NSC1109]

Bluegrass: Chicago - Indianapolis - Louisville

Buckeye: Detroit - Toledo - Columbus

Cincinnatian: Detroit - Toledo - Cincinnati

Cuyahoga Valley: Chicago - Toledo - Cleveland

Pioneer Zephyr: Chicago - Davenport - Cedar Rapids

Queen City Limited: Chicago - Indianapolis - Cincinnati

Pretty good name/route matches....except for the Chicago-Davenport-Cedar Rapids one....maybe more appropriate to call it, "Hawkeye Rocket" or something like that?

How 'bout something along the lines of "the Iowan" or "Iowa Zephyr"?

Bluegrass: Chicago - Indianapolis - Louisville

Buckeye: Detroit - Toledo - Columbus

Cincinnatian: Detroit - Toledo - Cincinnati

Cuyahoga Valley: Chicago - Toledo - Cleveland

Pioneer Zephyr: Chicago - Davenport - Cedar Rapids

Queen City Limited: Chicago - Indianapolis - Cincinnati

Pretty good name/route matches....except for the Chicago-Davenport-Cedar Rapids one....maybe more appropriate to call it, "Hawkeye Rocket" or something like that?

Changed to the Iowan. Thanks for the name suggestions!