Which is better Capitol Limited or Cardinal??

[railiner]

In many of the old style sleepers many rooms were set up where the toilets were not accessible when the beds were down, the public room was sort of needed.

I guess that was true in the earlier roomette's...the later ones had the "cutaway beds", along with the heavy zippered curtain, that would allow you to back out a bit into the aisle so you could raise your bed long enough to use the toilet during the night.

The public room for the use of adjacent diner patron's, is a good reason to explain them still being necessary. IIRC, the public toilet also was for the benefit of the Pullman era Porter, who did not get a full roomette, as Amtrak

attendant's do, but rather a sort of open lower section. When Amtrak converted these cars to HEP, they combined that porter's section with the adjacent roomette into a handicap accessible roomette...

 

[FormerOBS]

A lot of roomette berths had cutaways at the foot of the bed, but a lot of them didn't, and I'm pretty sure both styles were being produced concurrently, so I don't think one was an earlier version and the other a later version. If memory serves me correctly, the ex Santa Fe "Pine" series cars had cutaways, and the ex Union Pacific "Pacific" series had full width berths. I may have those reversed in my mind. I believe those cars were built around the same time, so I think it was the purchaser's option. Those roomette berths did not require a berth key to open. There was a lever, and appropriate signage, and it was possible for the passenger to lift the berth to use the toilet. But it was heavy, in spite of counterweights, and many people had a hard time with it. If you were thin, you could do this without opening the door. Otherwise, you could open the door and leave the curtain closed. Then you could go into the doorway while you lifted or lowered the berth.

I didn't like the cutaway beds because it was hard to make a neat bed for the passenger. The sheets weren't shaped like the bed!

In the bedrooms, the lower berth could be opened by anybody; but the upper required a berth key. I often wondered whether it would have been better to design the roomettes so that they required the service of the attendant, using a berth key. I thought this because I thought there would be passenger injuries. However, I don't remember any passenger injuries due to these berths, so I guess I was unduly concerned.

In pre-Amtrak days, the "lightweight" cars that eventually came to be known as Heritage cars generally had a very abbreviated space for the Porter. Before those cars were built, the Pullman Company often didn't provide a sleeping space for the Porter. There was a fold-down seat in the corridor where the Porter could doze, in uniform, ready to answer the Annunciator call.

Tom

 

[railiner]

Not having my old Pullman brochure's readily available for comparison, I'll have to defer to your memory, Tom, since you have much more experience aboard them, than I do.

Perhaps I was recalling the double bedrooms...I am positive that in their case, the early "lightweights" (streamlined), had their toilets in the open, while the later ones had their toilets in an enclosed "annex"...

 

[jphjaxfl]

Not having my old Pullman brochure's readily available for comparison, I'll have to defer to your memory, Tom, since you have much more experience aboard them, than I do.

Perhaps I was recalling the double bedrooms...I am positive that in their case, the early "lightweights" (streamlined), had their toilets in the open, while the later ones had their toilets in an enclosed "annex"...

The roomettes in the streamlined sleepers were sold as single rooms and had a toilet on the outside wall of the room that bed came down on at night or when being used to sleep. The roomette beds were very easy for passengers to lower and raise. As mentioned, if you were slender, you could lower or raise the bed without opening the door. All the other Sleeping Accommodations that I traveled in such as Bedrooms, Compartments and Drawing Rooms had enclosed private toilet facilities. I was never in a heavyweight Sleeper with Drawing Rooms so I don't know if they had private toilets. I do remember the large restrooms on the Heavy Weight Pullmans which had maybe 2-3 private toilet rooms. I remember, as a child, the heavy activity in the morning in the Pullman restrooms as men shaved and cleaned up so they could be in business dress at their destination. The private restroom Pullmans mostly came in the late 1930s and were very well received.

 

[FormerOBS]

Not having my old Pullman brochure's readily available for comparison, I'll have to defer to your memory, Tom, since you have much more experience aboard them, than I do.

Perhaps I was recalling the double bedrooms...I am positive that in their case, the early "lightweights" (streamlined), had their toilets in the open, while the later ones had their toilets in an enclosed "annex"...

Yes, some early Lightweight ("Heritage") sleepers were built with bedrooms that had toilets out in the open area of the room. I know this was true of pre-WWII 10 roomette 5 bedroom cars in the "Cascade" name series. Most 10-6's came along later, in the post-WWII era. By then, public dissatisfaction with the open arrangement was clear, and I think all postwar 10-6's had enclosed restrooms in the bedrooms. I don't think any of the "Cascade" 10-5's were built after the war, and I don't know whether any survived to Amtrak operation. I kind of doubt it.

Tom

 

[Seaboard92]

Which railroad operated the Cascade Series? Amtrak I want to say got the majority of the SCL, PC, ATSF, and BN cars. And the majority of the cars to make the conversion into heritage cars were built by Budd. Partially due to how great the body was.

 

[Bob Dylan]

The Slumber Coaches that Southern ran, and later on Amtrak once they took over the Crescent, had toilets that the bed covered when down.

 

[jis]

The Slumber Coaches that Southern ran, and later on Amtrak once they took over the Crescent, had toilets that the bed covered when down.

Yes, I remember that. I believe that the singles at least in the VIA Manor cars are also like that. I am not quite sure about the Chateau cars.

 

[FormerOBS]

Which railroad operated the Cascade Series? Amtrak I want to say got the majority of the SCL, PC, ATSF, and BN cars. And the majority of the cars to make the conversion into heritage cars were built by Budd. Partially due to how great the body was.

The Cascade Series was built by Pullman'Standard, their plan 4072, with minor variations for the different RR lines that operated them.

They were

New York Central, 12 cars, Plan 4072A, delivered 4/1938.

Pennsylvania RR, 2 cars, Plan 4072A, delivered 4/1938

Pennsylvania RR, 6 cars, Plan 4072B, delivered 6/1939

New York Central, 8 cars, Plan 4072B, delivered 6/1939

Baltimore & Ohio, 4 cars, Plan 4072B, delivered 3-4/1940

Santa Fe, 2 cars, Plan 4072B, delivered 3-4/1940

Pullman Pool, 2 cars, Plan 4072B, delivered 3-4/1940

Pullman Pool, 8 cars, Plan 4072B, delivered 3-4/1940

Pennsylvania RR, 33 cars, Plan 4072C, delivered 7-8/1940

New York Central, 13 cars, Plan 4072C, delivered 6-7/1940

Joint Traffic, 2 cars, Plan 4072D, delivered 11/40 (probably assigned to the C&NW/UP/SP San Francisco Overland or City of San Francisco)

Southern Pacific, 10 cars (numbered; not named), plan 4072E, delivered 2-3/1941

Baltimore & Ohio, 3 cars, Plan 4072F, delivered 10/1943 (note: Passenger car construction during WWII was severely limited. I suspect these were completed with parts already on hand)

I think that's a total of 105 cars.

I think this is a complete list, but I hope you won't sue me if I've missed any! I'm sure the Cascade cars were not the only ones with open toilet facilities in the bedrooms. It should be noted that these Plan 4072 cars constituted a tiny minority in the vast Pullman fleet of the time.

Tom

 

[Seaboard92]

Those probably didn't make it into the Amtrak fleet. I think the majority Amtrak took were the Budd cars.

 

[Seaboard92]

Those probably didn't make it into the Amtrak fleet. I think the majority Amtrak took were the Budd cars.

 

[FormerOBS]

Those probably didn't make it into the Amtrak fleet. I think the majority Amtrak took were the Budd cars.

Right. This is classic Topic Drift. The relevance is the notion of having an open toilet in a passenger room. The Cascade cars were all smooth-side (even those used on the Santa Fe, which usually stipulated fluted sides). The only non-Budd cars I ever worked in Amtrak service were Pullman Standard ex-Union Pacific 11-Bedroom "Placid" series sleepers of plan 4198 They had been built in 1956, and were newer than most of the Budds, but showed considerably more wear.

To make this almost relevant to the Capitol Limited (spelled with an O!), Cascade cars were operated on the Capitol when that train was operated by the B&O, but that was in the 1940's and 1950's --- way before Amtrak.

Tom

 

[Seaboard92]

I think I'll have to start a separate thread about the differences between the three major car builders. I know there was one or two ACF products but I think those were ex ATSF baggage cars. The Cardinals route to relate this to the topic used Pullman Standard cars for the most part with fluting under the windows and paint above. Giving the cars an interesting look.