Why aren't overnight trains able to compete with flying?

[Tlcooper44]

Yes, the speed of actual transit is always going to go to the airline. I agree.

Glad we finally ironed that one out....

 

[fhussain44]

This thread is about taking the LSL from New York to Chicago. The Lake Shore Limited departs Grand Central at 3:40 PM. The earliest you can conduct business in Chicago is 11:00 AM on the following day - and that is super risky.

I am out in the suburbs so catch the train from Croton at 430PM. I need to leave my home by 4PM to meet it there. I would need to book a 7 or 8PM flight to give ample time to reach the airport by public transit.

 

[Siegmund]

Re "which is late more often" -- one big thing to consider is what happens when you are late.

Amtrak actually rebooks me or puts me up in a hotel. They don't debate whether the train being delayed by flooding in North Dakota was "their fault" or "the weather's fault." I didn't make my connection and I am accommodated.

It's true that random airline delays are moderately uncommon- but weather related delays are exceedingly common, and the when it's weather, the airline says "not our fault you are stuck in Seattle tonight, go get your own hotel room and dinner, and come back here at 6 in the morning to be rebooked." So much for flying home the same afternoon my conference ends and sleeping in my own bed!

I have had some success getting employers to pay for train travel, even for sleeper travel. They won't, in general, pay for first-class upgrades; but some of them are responsive to "reimburse you up to the cost your plane ticket would have been" and some are responsive to "yes, you DID save us a $200 night at the conference hotel by riding an overnight train and arriving the morning of the conference", and treating the sleeper upgrade as lodging rather than travel.

 

[fhussain44]

This thread is about taking the LSL from New York to Chicago. The Lake Shore Limited departs Grand Central at 3:40 PM. The earliest you can conduct business in Chicago is 11:00 AM on the following day - and that is super risky.

I am out in the suburbs so catch the train from Croton at 430PM. I need to leave my home by 4PM to meet it there. I would need to book a 7 or 8PM flight to give ample time to reach the airport by public transit.

 

[Exvalley]

I am out in the suburbs so catch the train from Croton at 430PM. I need to leave my home by 4PM to meet it there. I would need to book a 7 or 8PM flight to give ample time to reach the airport by public transit.

I’m struggling to see how that makes the train faster overall.

 

[jis]

I have had some success getting employers to pay for train travel, even for sleeper travel. They won't, in general, pay for first-class upgrades; but some of them are responsive to "reimburse you up to the cost your plane ticket would have been" and some are responsive to "yes, you DID save us a $200 night at the conference hotel by riding an overnight train and arriving the morning of the conference", and treating the sleeper upgrade as lodging rather than travel.

We used to be able to do that until the travel department booking system was able to cleverly compute the actual cost of lodging taking into account those special corporate deals with large hotel chains and then insisted that the only lodging that will be reimbursed by the company would be those booked through their booking engine. That put a complete kibosh on getting sleeper upgrades reimbursed by the company since the company had not contract with Amtrak and the contract lodging price at the destination city was always less than anything that Amtrak could conjure up as Sleeper upgrade charge.

At that time they also did not allow us to stay in the Conference hotel unless the conference organizer added a hefty charge for not staying there, and of course that also eliminated doing the Sleeper thing, unless the Amtrak charge plus the hefty charge was less than the no hefty charge and one hotel night at the conference rate. It was all caused by the growth of the tyranny of more and more capable analytical engines in the reservation systems, and the travel vendor getting kicbacks from the company proportional to the documented amount of money saved by the company.

 

[Tlcooper44]

Re "which is late more often" -- one big thing to consider is what happens when you are late.

Amtrak actually rebooks me or puts me up in a hotel. They don't debate whether the train being delayed by flooding in North Dakota was "their fault" or "the weather's fault." I didn't make my connection and I am accommodated.

It's true that random airline delays are moderately uncommon- but weather related delays are exceedingly common, and the when it's weather, the airline says "not our fault you are stuck in Seattle tonight, go get your own hotel room and dinner, and come back here at 6 in the morning to be rebooked." So much for flying home the same afternoon my conference ends and sleeping in my own bed!

I have had some success getting employers to pay for train travel, even for sleeper travel. They won't, in general, pay for first-class upgrades; but some of them are responsive to "reimburse you up to the cost your plane ticket would have been" and some are responsive to "yes, you DID save us a $200 night at the conference hotel by riding an overnight train and arriving the morning of the conference", and treating the sleeper upgrade as lodging rather than travel.

that’s awesome! Unfortunately, in my buisness, if a concert venue/booker/management is paying for my travel, they won’t pay for the cost of a sleeper ticket, and I’m relying on my own cash/points to upgrade to sleeper. They often will book a train ticket on the NEC without me asking though.

flying with an old violin is sort of like roulette. Will they force me to check it, subsequently forcing me to forfeit the ticket and take a different flight?
On a train, never an issue.

 

[west point]

Say I have a business in Buffalo that is small. I have to work at the office at 0830 until1800. The next day I am assigned to meet our business customer at 0800 .in South bend. Can I drive ? I would be in poor shape for the meeting. If I an fly to O'Hare i will have to book a fight after 2100 arriving in CHI about 2145 ( time change ) Then stay at a hotel 2359 until 0500 with rental car to get to SBO by that 0800 meeting . That is not good.

If I can get a sleeper going to CHI I get off it at 0700 local (EDT ) and make the meeting at 0800 . There are many examples that do not have originations and arrival not at the beginning and end of a trip. You posters here really need to not just focus on end points but also points that are in between.

Many in between points are being missed. On shorter end to end points do the way it has been done in Europe, Hold the train at a location until about 0100 - 0300 ? Naturally every route would need different times.

 

[MARC Rider]

So was I. We all factor in that with speed. I’m talking about door to door.

Let’s take the most convenient night train (in my opinion): the night owl.

You are factoring in a hotel, but most would simply chose a different flight time that would not force them to take a hotel.

BOS-WAS travel time (door to door) would never be more than even 5 hours (and that’s with significant travel time on either end of the flight). The night owl, even with in between destinations (in order to provide sufficient sleep) is usually at least 7 hours.

The Night Owl BOS - WAS is scheduled for 9 - 10 hours.

 

[Tlcooper44]

The Night Owl BOS - WAS is scheduled for 9 - 10 hours.

Yes, I’ve ridden it 5 times now since April.
I’m referring to in between points like PHL-PVD. My point was stating that the shortest you would want the Night Owl to be (when connecting in between destinations) is 7 hours, to at least get some sleep.

 

[Exvalley]

Many in between points are being missed.

The original poster said that the train is faster than flying when traveling between New York and Chicago.

 

[Tlcooper44]

You posters here really need to not just focus on end points but also points that are in between.

How much of any of these posts did you read?

 

[sttom]

Why aren't overnight trains able to compete with flying?

My first point would be that Amtrak's network isn't dense enough to provide effective overnight service between most cities in this country. For a city pair to be fruitful as a pair, they need an 8 to 12 hour end to end run time. Amtrak serves many city pairs on good enough schedules, but the trains are largely banked for Chicago. Which means scheduled times in the middle of the route aren't convenient. For example, Oakland to Portland works under the existing schedule, but Amtrak hasn't run an Oakland/LA overnight without state funding. And this is just on the existing network. A Chicago/Nashville service doesn't exist even with a 2am arrival time. And there are a bunch of city pairs like that.

My second point is Amtrak's service offering really doesn't fit the market that would want an overnight train. I've tried sleeping in an coach seat and while it's ok for a cat nap, I can't imagine it would be fun overnight. Amtrak though have up on a bed only option which makes their normal offer on overnight trains a harder sell on purely overnight trains. Normally a sleeper fare comes with food, it's kind of hard to charge normal sleeper fare and only give people gas station inspired breakfasts. From what I've seen people say of the sleeper on the overnight Regional, it leaves a lot to be desired.

My third point, jumping off the second one is that Amtrak's management doesn't seem to be very imaginative when it comes to envisioning and articulating a future for itself. It's 2035 plan is pathetic, they don't seem to be learning that much from the rise of NightJet in Europe and that shows with how the overnight Regional has been relaunched. Amtrak's upper management needs to have it's collective boat rocked and frankly I'd have more faith in a group of people from here than the board that gets their positions based on political patronage.

Overnight trains could be competitive with flying in some cases, but won't be with Amtrak's current leadership.

 

[jpakala]

My father always took the train from Pittsburgh to NYC or sometimes Chicago, Detroit, St. Louis, Buffalo, etc. At first there were only propeller planes, flights were bumpy & very expensive. Pittsburgh's airport was way west of downtown and we were east. He'd return from NYC and get off at E. Pgh. & walk into his office building. He saved on hotel & had a Pullman roomette or duplex room (sort of like a bedroom, but for one person with 2 bedrooms at each end of the car and 12 duplex rooms in between, 1 lower, 2 upper, 2 lower, 2 upper, 2 lower, 2 upper, 1 lower). PRR had those, though NP had four on the same level below a dome. (B&O may have had a few in a dome car along with their unique two-person drawing rooms.)

 

[jruff001]

My third point, jumping off the second one is that Amtrak's management doesn't seem to be very imaginative when it comes to envisioning and articulating a future for itself. It's 2035 plan is pathetic, they don't seem to be learning that much from the rise of NightJet in Europe and that shows with how the overnight Regional has been relaunched. Amtrak's upper management needs to have it's collective boat rocked and frankly I'd have more faith in a group of people from here than the board that gets their positions based on political patronage.

If you want to see something like Europe's NightJet in the U.S., it will take a LOT more than a change in Amtrak's upper management. Any upper management team in Amtrak's history would have loved to have seen a NightJet concept become reality. But the structural / economic / political realities in the U.S. won't let that happen (at least not in our lifetimes), no matter who is in the upper management team.

Oh and not to you, but LOL to those who are again suggesting that all Amtrak needs to do is have a snazzy advertising campaign to convince business travelers that it is worth their time to do an 19+ hr CHI-NYC overnight train ride vs. a 2 1/2 hr flight.

 

[jruff001]

I am out in the suburbs so catch the train from Croton at 430PM. I need to leave my home by 4PM to meet it there. I would need to book a 7 or 8PM flight to give ample time to reach the airport by public transit.

And I am sure there are at least as many people who live on/in LI/NJ and can be at LGA/EWR relatively easily, but getting to NYP to catch the LSL would be one hassle too much.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Oh and not to you, but LOL to those who are again suggesting that all Amtrak needs to do is have a snazzy advertising campaign to convince business travelers that it is worth their time to do an 19+ hr CHI-NYC overnight train ride vs. a 2 1/2 hr flight.

A good Amtrak advertising campaign would help ridership. NYC-Chicago should be a very busy passenger corridor with a dedicated limited stop night train.

 

[jruff001]

Say I have a business in Buffalo that is small. I have to work at the office at 0830 until1800. The next day I am assigned to meet our business customer at 0800 .in South bend. Can I drive ? I would be in poor shape for the meeting. If I an fly to O'Hare i will have to book a fight after 2100 arriving in CHI about 2145 ( time change ) Then stay at a hotel 2359 until 0500 with rental car to get to SBO by that 0800 meeting . That is not good.

If I can get a sleeper going to CHI I get off it at 0700 local (EDT ) and make the meeting at 0800 . There are many examples that do not have originations and arrival not at the beginning and end of a trip. You posters here really need to not just focus on end points but also points that are in between.

First. If you are "assigned" to work until 1800 in Buffalo and then meet a customer at 0800 in South Bend, you need to speak up and say that isn't reasonable. (Or at least mention that there is a good chance the LSL will be several hours late, so this "business customer" must not be all that important.)

Second, yes I am sure there are also a handful of business travelers each year who need to get from Holdrege to McCook, NE overnight who would also find Amtrak's California Zephyr more convenient than flying.

But what about those who have to get from Janesville, WI to Des Moines, IA? Or Louisville to Tulsa? Shouldn't Amtrak serve them with a convenient overnight schedule too?

TL;DR: Yes one can always pick out specific city pairs based on Amtrak's current route map and schedule where Amtrak MIGHT compete with flying. But those are almost pretty much irrelevant in the Bigger Picture.

 

[jruff001]

A good Amtrak advertising campaign would help ridership. NYC-Chicago should be a very busy passenger corridor with a dedicated limited stop night train.

It sounds like you are presuming there would be multiple trains per day on that route. A LOT has to happen to get that into place before advertising can happen. Good luck in your negotiations with CSX and NS.

 

[sttom]

If you want to see something like Europe's NightJet in the U.S., it will take a LOT more than a change in Amtrak's upper management. Any upper management team in Amtrak's history would have loved to have seen a NightJet concept become reality. But the structural / economic / political realities in the U.S. won't let that happen (at least not in our lifetimes), no matter who is in the upper management team.

Politics can and are changing, the question that remains to be seen is if that will have an effect on Amtrak in any way.

Amtrak's leadership is all talk as far as I'm concerned until I see results. Their 2035 "plan" shows how unimaginative they are. They can say they want a NightJet product line, but until they actually do something about it, it's talk. They could get more out of Congress if they ask and come up with a good plan. It's not like train service is particularly expensive to start. Adding what the highway trust fund needs every decade to stay solvent ontop of the $25 billion the country would get in the current plan would go a long way. And that's not even a drop in the bucket as far as our politics go.

 

[Qapla]

Oh and not to you, but LOL to those who are again suggesting that all Amtrak needs to do is have a snazzy advertising campaign to convince business travelers that it is worth their time

I never said that good advertising was ALL that is needed - but it is one of the things needed ... along with looking at people other than business travelers as a source of income - business people are not the only ones who travel

 

[jruff001]

It's not like train service is particularly expensive to start.

Are you envisioning that new rights-of-way be built just for Amtrak, or are you envisioning forcing the freight railroads to host significantly more Amtrak trains and give them priority to have some semblance of being on time?

Whichever, I am curious as to how either would not be "particularly expensive." Do tell.

 

[MARC Rider]

One should also remember that the financial performance of the NEC "Night Owl," aka the "Twilight Shoreliner," aka Northeast Regional 65/66/67 does not just depend on sleeping car passengers. In fact, 65/66/67 has been run successfully without sleeping cars since about 2004 or so. One important thing is that a lot of the passengers that use this train aren't going from end to end, and they have no need of sleeping car service. On the southbound end, 67 gets passengers from Philly and Baltimore who want to be in DC early, but certainly have no need to reserve a sleeping car. On the northbound end, there are folks in Providence who want to get into Boston early. They also have no need for a sleeping car. As for passengers who ride to/from New York, well, it the "city that never sleeps," so people who are riding in at that hour probably aren't sleeping, and probably don't need a sleeper.

I have some experience with the train. Aside from riding from Boston to DC for several years in the early 2010s, I was a semi-regular rider of 67 for commuting purposes, catching it when I missed my regular MARC train, but didn't want to get into the office late. While adding sleepers may be a nice way to add some financial gravy to the trains fiscal performance, they could also make some extra money by expanding the availability of business class. While I like the 2x1 club car seating, those cars only hold 18 passengers, and there were many mornings when I needed to ride 67 when the business class was sold out.

The issue with many other proposed overnight sleeper train services is that the city pairs involved may not have the populous intermediate points that also draw the kind of quasi-commuter traffic that feeds 65/66/67. Thus, in the end, there just isn't enough support to make such a train financially viable, even if there is a market for the end-to-end overnight service.

 

[Mailliw]

Couchettes are a big factor in European night trains being viable. Amtrak doesn't necessarily need to have couchettes, but they need an equivalent option in between a coach seat and a private compartment. Roomettes might be able to fill this niche if we had enough sleeping cars to lower prices.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

It sounds like you are presuming there would be multiple trains per day on that route. A LOT has to happen to get that into place before advertising can happen. Good luck in your negotiations with CSX and NS.

Yes. I am saying that route should be a very busy passenger rail corridor.