why can't food be better

[rrdude]

No one here has probably seen the UK-version of Kitchen Nightmares with Ramsay; however over there in the show he much more concerned with the quality of the food keeping prices down and customers up rather then the emotional baggage they tout here in the US version. I'd love to see him do a UK-style Nightmares on Amtrak!

peter

I've seen virtually every episode, and all the other "formula" kitchen rescue and bar rescue shows. There are several common denominators, but one being this:

• Buying fresh instead of prepared, not only reduces food cost, but creates better quality meals
• Labor cost DOES rise.

Amtrak has consistency and FDA rules to adhere too, unlike the guy at a food wagon or roach-coach, who probably DOES have rules to follow, but has far less oversight.

 

[neroden]

It doesn't have to be that expensive. Let's get back to the Philly example. I can watch the person in the cart make bacon, eggs, and toast in front of me on the tiniest griddle. It tastes great and costs maybe 3.50 for a blt or similar. I can get a lot of other great stuff for $5 or less. I don't see why Amtrak can't make the same quality stuff in their comparably huge kitchen and charge more if they want.

Ding ding ding! You understand how it ought to be!

 

[neroden]

I've seen virtually every episode, and all the other "formula" kitchen rescue and bar rescue shows. There are several common denominators, but one being this:

• Buying fresh instead of prepared, not only reduces food cost, but creates better quality meals
• Labor cost DOES rise.

Here's another important recurring feature which Gordon Ramsey and others hammer on repeatedly, and this one is subtle, but crucial to the economics of a restaurant:

Design a menu which features a small list of ingredients. Then get really good ingredients for that small list.

Do not design a menu with hundreds of ingredients. This avoids spoilage.

The number of dishes on the menu is irrelevant; the number of ingredients is crucial for controlling spoilage and pricing.

The classic example is the Chinese restaurant menu. There appear to be large numbers of items on the menu, but really they're combinations of:

-- Chicken

-- Beef

-- Pork

-- (standard vegetable assortment)

-- (nowadays) Tofu

+

-- noodles

-- rice

+

-- Sauce #1

-- Sauce #2

-- Sauce #3

-- Sauce #4

(etc.)

You can even have a long list of sauces because they don't go bad.

------

So here's an Amtrak concept. They have a grill, right?...

-- grilled eggs (any style -- not poached!)

-- grilled bacon

-- grilled steak (your choice from a selection of sprinkled seasonings)

-- grilled vegetables (standard selection of fresh grillable vegetables)

-- grilled tofu

-- omelette (optional ingredients: cheese, anything listed above)

-- grilled cheese sandwich (optional ingredients: anything listed above)

-- standard mixed-greens salad (greens + same vegetables above, but not grilled -- and optional steak or bacon)

-- non-grilled sandwich (optional ingredients: anything listed above -- the mixed greens from the salad, etc.)

-- fried egg sandwich (you're getting the idea by now)

-- bread on the side (same as the sandwich bread)

This supplies breakfast, lunch, dinner, vegetarian options, vegan options, balanced meals, all fresh, with a common list of ingredients. There's a lot of grilling, but you're *leveraging your ingredients menu* by using the eggs and the steak at breakfast, lunch, and dinner. And the menu *looks* long...

 

[northnorthwest]

It doesn't have to be that expensive. Let's get back to the Philly example. I can watch the person in the cart make bacon, eggs, and toast in front of me on the tiniest griddle. It tastes great and costs maybe 3.50 for a blt or similar. I can get a lot of other great stuff for $5 or less. I don't see why Amtrak can't make the same quality stuff in their comparably huge kitchen and charge more if they want.

Ding ding ding! You understand how it ought to be!

Thank you for the bell. It's been a while since I won a prize!

 

[NETrainfan]

We were on the Silver Meteor a little over a year ago and had good meals. Has the quality gone down since then?

The breakfast was very good, the lunch good, and the dinner was good. The entrees were well cooked and hot.

The vegetables were good and the desserts were too good (cheesecake).

We have traveled Amtrak for over 20 years and have enjoyed the food. Is this rare?

 

[Manny T]

It's tough to read through this discussion and not come across the word "labor." In a given year, take 2012, the food served aboard Amtrak LD trains cost $59.8 mil and generated revenues of $63.5 mil. That's a $3.7 mil profit, right? Wrong. Because labor to prepare and serve that food cost $75.3 mil. Net net the loss on LD food service in 2012 was $71.5 mil. That is actually a lot of money. Which leads to cost cutting measures and results in the food we are all familiar with from dining on Amtrak.

Solutions? Sell twice as much food without raising labor costs. Or double the price of food on LD trains to make up the deficit. In other words, there is no solution. Unless you eliminate the labor (self-service on Amtrak? Didn't they once consider vending machines??)

And that explains why Amtrak does what it does--every year it makes incremental changes to food service that reduce costs somewhat (eliminate this, downgrade that) so it can show Congress that losses are DEcreasing year by year. Which they are. But one has to say that with the exception of a nice dinner here or there, overall quality is also decreasing imo.

 

[NETrainfan]

How can Amtrak provide budget sensible food service in the future?

Is the food service just too costly for Amtrak at this time? Is it really making such a big difference in the big budget picture?

We are more concerned with getting from Point A to Point B in the most comfortable way possible- for us that is by train.

As long as there is drinking water available, we will take the train!

 

[Manny T]

I understand your point NET although you don't mention if Points A and B require long distance travel.

I'm not sure how LD travel would fare without food service. Going back to the 2012 statistics, that $63.5 mil in revenue was generated by 4.7 million LD passengers. So think about it this way--4.7 mil PAX spent $63.5 mil on food while traveling on LD trains. You can argue whether food service on trains is "essential" or not. But the fact is, current Amtrak passengers (a) seem to want it and (b) seen to be prepared to pay for it. The question here is, can what is delivered to the plate be improved?

 

[niemi24s]

I don't have a bazillion miles of Amtrak travel under my belt like most others, but what I've eaten over the years I'd rate as good or better. But I'm no food snoot. And don't forget - it's not your Mommies kitchen.

 

[NETrainfan]

We usually travel LD trains and do enjoy the food service.

However, if the food service (whether good, fair, or otherwise) is not paying for itself- what are the alternatives for the future?

 

[neroden]

Solutions? Sell twice as much food without raising labor costs.

This is totally doable.

First thing to understand: Amtrak's dining cars are still operating on the vestiges of a "three course meal" model, or even a "five course meal" model. Even fancy restaurants don't really do that anymore. Switch to a "two course" model (second course being dessert, which a lot of people skip anyway) and you've already sped up the table turnover while reducing labor cost.

There's a lot of stuff like that going on at Amtrak.

The menu is badly designed as well, as I just explained. Gordon Ramsey consistently advises "few ingredients and few cooking methods", and if you can generate a large menu like that, it *looks* impressive but isn't any extra work and all the dishes are quality (so you can charge more for them while getting lots of customers). Some restaurants can do great turnover by only offering *one* dish, and just making it really good. The captive clientele on Amtrak will want a little more selection than that, but the principle doesn't change.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Solutions? Sell twice as much food without raising labor costs.

This is totally doable.

First thing to understand: Amtrak's dining cars are still operating on the vestiges of a "three course meal" model, or even a "five course meal" model. Even fancy restaurants don't really do that anymore. Switch to a "two course" model (second course being dessert, which a lot of people skip anyway) and you've already sped up the table turnover while reducing labor cost.

So you are suggesting that Amtrak shouldn't offer a side salad on the dinner menu?

Even a Logan's Roadhouse or an O'Charleys (far from a "Fancy Restaurant") offer salads with the meals.

 

[Alexandria Nick]

The only thing that truly bothers me is lack of variety. I don't expect a five page menu on a given trip. That's unreasonable and impractical in a contained vessel with minimal staff. Its that its the same things every trip on seemingly every train.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

The breakfast was very good, the lunch good, and the dinner was good. The entrees were well cooked and hot. The vegetables were good and the desserts were too good (cheesecake). We have traveled Amtrak for over 20 years and have enjoyed the food...As long as there is drinking water available, we will take the train!

It honestly sounds like your criteria are so low that it's virtually impossible for Amtrak to disappoint you. If the food got better or worse would you even notice or care?

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

Solutions? Sell twice as much food without raising labor costs.

This is totally doable.

First thing to understand: Amtrak's dining cars are still operating on the vestiges of a "three course meal" model, or even a "five course meal" model. Even fancy restaurants don't really do that anymore. Switch to a "two course" model (second course being dessert, which a lot of people skip anyway) and you've already sped up the table turnover while reducing labor cost.

So you are suggesting that Amtrak shouldn't offer a side salad on the dinner menu?

Even a Logan's Roadhouse or an O'Charleys (far from a "Fancy Restaurant") offer salads with the meals.

For that matter you can get a pretty decent Side Salad at McDonald's for $1.

 

[wtsherman100]

So, anyone that doesn't agree with the notion that Amtrak food is all crap, all the time has no taste and no standards?? Sad....

 

[willem]

The only thing that truly bothers me is lack of variety. I don't expect a five page menu on a given trip. That's unreasonable and impractical in a contained vessel with minimal staff. Its that its the same things every trip on seemingly every train.

Yes, that is a problem.
Some years ago, different trains had different menues, often with specialities related to areas served, like catfish on the City of New Orleans. (Oh, the ignominy of that fall from greatness!) Someone traveling on the same western long distance train might have two (or three, on the Texas Eagle or Sunset LImited of the time) days of the same menu, but it would change if the traveler was fortunate enough to continue on a different train.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

Food trucks don't make fresh food. Most of it is prepared (or partially prepared) well in advance and basically reheated. They all have kitchen facilities in a permanent location.

Very, very, very, INCORRECT.

So, if you, say, order the chili, they always start from scratch making it for you?

At least the food trucks around here, the have their food ready to be served, immediately, when you order. Their business model it to serve food to people as quickly as possible, processing long lines quickly.

 

[niemi24s]

So, anyone that doesn't agree with the notion that Amtrak food is all crap, all the time has no taste and no standards?? Sad....

Don't forget that some members of this forum seem to travel Amtrak so frequently they have a different perspective from a schmuck like me who only travels every year or so. For me it's a genuine treat. For some others I think it's a chance to add material to their ever-expanding dossiers on each train. Just my 2¢ worth.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I know that the "Roach Coaches" that operate here in Austin have prepared in advance food.

What has changed is the "High end" food trucks with gourmet chow that are restaurants on wheels, actually cook some food to order, but @ higher prices than the standard food trucks.

Well never see the Golden Days of Gourmet Food in the Diner return, but hopefully we'll at least get back to what we had a couple of years ago which, IMO, was the best Amtrak Food since the the early 70s when Heritage Diners still had experienced food service Crews that turned out great food with excellent service.

And remember, one paid for what they ate and drank in addition to their Rail Fare and accommodation charges but it was Worth it! Such is not the case now with the race to the bottom started by Mica and Boardman! YMMV

 

[JoeBas]

In light of the news about the permanent de-fooding of the Silver Star, I propose a thread title change:

"why can't food be"

 

[Devil's Advocate]

So, anyone that doesn't agree with the notion that Amtrak food is all crap, all the time has no taste and no standards?? Sad....

Those are your words but let's review for a moment. Poster implies they've never had a single bad meal in twenty years, even though the food quality itself has varied considerably. Poster also implies that temperature is apparently the primary concern and indicates that serving water alone is sufficient to keep them coming back. Does that sound like someone who has any chance of ever being disappointed by poor quality food? I guess if your primary concern is never being served raw food you can't do much better than a precooked-frozen-reheated dining process like Amtrak. That being said you still won't ever see me claim that every Amtrak meal I've had was bad. Not only would that sound completely unbelievable, it would also be categorically false. In fact I'd be embarrassed to openly flaunt a perfect record in either direction.

 

[Tony in Ann Arbor]

"In a given year, take 2012, the food served aboard Amtrak LD trains cost $59.8 mil and generated revenues of $63.5 mil. That's a $3.7 mil profit, right? Wrong."

I find it very hard to believe the two numbers wirh a margin of a bit less than 6%. I am reasonably certain that none of the steaks I have consumed on Amtrak trains (most of which have been fine) cost more than $10 yet sold for $20 or more. The Angus Burger with beverage cannot cost more than $4 and sells for $11 or more. I think Amtrak's cost allocations are once again distorting the numbers needed to make a better analysis. At a minimum, we need to know the definition of cost.

 

[neroden]

So you are suggesting that Amtrak shouldn't offer a side salad on the dinner menu?

I'm distinguishing between a side salad (which I absolutely support) and a salad served prior to the main course. Until recently Amtrak served the salads ahead of the main course, waited for you to finish the salad, took the salad away before serving the main course.

 

[Thirdrail7]

No one here has probably seen the UK-version of Kitchen Nightmares with Ramsay; however over there in the show he much more concerned with the quality of the food keeping prices down and customers up rather then the emotional baggage they tout here in the US version. I'd love to see him do a UK-style Nightmares on Amtrak!

peter

Amtrak needs Gordon Ramsey. I suspect the current "chefs" are extremely limited in what they are allowed to envision for the train and I would even venture to say they may not actually ride for any long period of time.

How can Amtrak provide budget sensible food service in the future?

Is the food service just too costly for Amtrak at this time? Is it really making such a big difference in the big budget picture?

We are more concerned with getting from Point A to Point B in the most comfortable way possible- for us that is by train.

As long as there is drinking water available, we will take the train!

Given the economics, the congressional mandate and the lack of equipment needed to support a full dining car, I think the line is clearly drawn. It is my opinion that Amtrak is looking less at the end to end rider vs the medium to short distance rider. In other words, the person that MAY eat one meal versus the person who will be in the position to eat 3-5 meals.

In light of the news about the permanent de-fooding of the Silver Star, I propose a thread title change:

"why can't food be"

Indeed. However, I have to ask myself: Would I rather have a cheaper room with no food or an expensive room with lackluster options? I'd pick the former and try to have a pizza delivered at a stop!

"In a given year, take 2012, the food served aboard Amtrak LD trains cost $59.8 mil and generated revenues of $63.5 mil. That's a $3.7 mil profit, right? Wrong."

I find it very hard to believe the two numbers wirh a margin of a bit less than 6%. I am reasonably certain that none of the steaks I have consumed on Amtrak trains (most of which have been fine) cost more than $10 yet sold for $20 or more. The Angus Burger with beverage cannot cost more than $4 and sells for $11 or more. I think Amtrak's cost allocations are once again distorting the numbers needed to make a better analysis. At a minimum, we need to know the definition of cost.

Remember, it is not just the labor on the train. Someone orders the food and places an order to someone who itemizes the food, delivers to a location where it is once again itemized, loaded, counted, served (or not served) at which point someone unloads it, itemizes it, stores it.....etc etc.

There are so many hands involved and unlike a restaurant which can send people home or call in extra people as needed, the train has to carry its staff for the ride, which leads to accommodations ,etc. All of this adds up.

This is why it is likely Amtrak is trying things that will reduce how many hands are in the pot. If the trains were more reliable, you could have the cooking staff detrain and pick up other trains en route. Additionally, food stops were proposed years ago. However, reliability killed that program before it even got off the ground. However, better internet access and things like GPS have made the prospect less risky, Perhaps this concept will return.