Will full service dining ever return to the Western trains?

[Exvalley]

In the past I would have agreed but Amazon and Whole Foods seem to have figured it out.

The Amazon Go stores have some very healthy food options that are excellent quality. They are generally meant for the office lunch crowd, so they are packaged for takeaway. It's where I intend to stock up for my next trip out of Chicago since my current diet does not allow processed foods. I really wish that Amtrak would partner with Amazon or a similar company that has shown that takeaway food can be healthy and taste great.

 

[west point]

Pre paying on your ticket for what ever your selection is the best way to operate dining services. If you cancel after the cut off time for odering a meal for your segment then you loose that amount ! Also sell any meals not claimed that a customer did not show up; to anyone desiring to eat that meal !

 

[tricia]

Um, many people DO take trains last-minute. Some even book their tickets AFTER the train has departed its originating station (and supply depot) for a 2 or 3 day run. And what if the train is delayed, adding more meal times? There are many, many travel scenarios that have people on trains finding they need to buy a meal they haven't had a chance to order in advance. There's also the opportunity for Amtrak to make a profit selling those meals along with other food-and-beverage impulse purchases.

Amtrak will ALWAYS need to be able to feed people decently without expecting passengers to order that food days in advance.

 

[Nick Farr]

In the past I would have agreed but Amazon and Whole Foods seem to have figured it out. So have several restaurant supply services. Even my meat and pantry-focused regional supermarket gets it right some of the time. About half of their salad kits will last another 3-4 days at home while the other half are already wilting and browning on the store shelf. So far as I can tell the longevity of each kit seems to be specific to the processing plant and/or distribution system rather than the ingredients themselves.

I definitely agree that processing and distribution are key. Very large grocery chains and distribution networks that are closer to the farm (i.e. buy entire lots of produce) can fix a lot of these things. But when you add in the processing step of a food caterer who probably sources from a very long food supply chain and tack on making salads for uneven equipment, it becomes a very large challenge to do.

Having worked in Groceries, I can tell you it pretty much comes down to this:

1) Organic or Conventional: Organic produce spoils much more quickly in general than conventional produce. One of the ways we knew certain product was not organic was that it didn't spoil like the rest of its kind. Sometimes they will sub in Organic for Conventional but they're never supposed to do it the other way around. This is one thing that could account for spoilage.

2) Humidity Control: Part of this is the packaging, part of this is the refrigeration unit. Most greens need to breathe AND be kept relatively cold and humid--this is why you put certain produce in paper bags, crispers, etc.

3) Availability of produce: You can get Iceberg Lettuce whenever you want, but most other greens are very seasonal and sometimes they do not play/ship well together. Sometimes produce picked yesterday versus produce picked two weeks ago are lumped together and that can cause/accelerate spoilage.

Could Amtrak have a dinner salad? Absolutely. However, they'd need to upgrade their cooling equipment and/or spend a lot of money on packaging--or just source them every few days along the way.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Could Amtrak have a dinner salad? Absolutely. However, they'd need to upgrade their cooling equipment and/or spend a lot of money on packaging--or just source them every few days along the way.

The exact same refrigerators that Amtrak have always had are still in operation. The entree salad I used to get on the empire builder and coast starlight came prepackaged. Usually it would be served already plated but now and then they would serve it “some assembly required.”

 

[ehbowen]

Who said they loved Amtrak's new TV dinners? The positive commentary I've seen so far has been faint and vaguely worded praise at best. I can understand and agree that there are people who will eat almost anything and/or simply do not care what is served, but what is there to love about these meals? I realize that TV dinners were a big deal back in the 1950's but this is 2020 and I don't eat food that puts my health at risk unless it's worth the fat and calorie hit. That does not included generic precooked leftovers.

From Lean Cuisine to DEVOUR there's lots of frozen food nuke-it-and-go aficionados. I don't get it either.

And yes, I had vague "it's not the end of the world" praise for these meals.

If you look at most of the fast food people eat, from a fat and salt perspective it's not that much better.

It's not a deal killer for me. It's not what I'd do, but I'm more interested in advocating/exploring alternative solutions than beating a fait accompli to death.

Oh, come on now. The 1970s Swanson salisbury steak and turkey tv dinners with powdered mashed potatoes were definitely not "far superior" to what is served on Amtrak today. Mind you, neither are good - but the 1970s tv dinners were downright awful.

View attachment 18437

Trust me, the 50s TV Dinners ( mostly Swanson)were terrible, just like the swill being slung in Amtrak "Sleeper Lounges " right now!

I know I'm going to incur your scorn for saying this here, but I just came home from the supermarket with half-a-dozen Hungry Man frozen dinners...including two of the dreaded Salisbury Steaks. When you're a bachelor working the graveyard shift you can't afford to be snooty about a hot, filling meal which can be prepared in your microwave at work...and only costs $2.52.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I know I'm going to incur your scorn for saying this here, but I just came home from the supermarket with half-a-dozen Hungry Man frozen dinners...including two of the dreaded Salisbury Steaks. When you're a bachelor working the graveyard shift you can't afford to be snooty about a hot, filling meal which can be prepared in your microwave at work...and only costs $2.52.

I eat them myself, they're 1000 times better than those from the 50s, especially Healthy Choice and Lean Cuisine, and the Local Favorites, HEB Dinners and Night Hawk Steak Dinners.

 

[Nick Farr]

There is no lack of refrigerator space on Amtrak dining Cars. Why are you making stuff up?

Tell me exactly what the cooling capacity is on the LD trains and how it didn't change at all with the switch to flex dining.

 

[fdaley]

I know I'm going to incur your scorn for saying this here, but I just came home from the supermarket with half-a-dozen Hungry Man frozen dinners...including two of the dreaded Salisbury Steaks. When you're a bachelor working the graveyard shift you can't afford to be snooty about a hot, filling meal which can be prepared in your microwave at work...and only costs $2.52.

There is a place in the world for the $2.52 Hungry Man dinner, and I don't scorn you or anyone who chooses to eat them. It might even be a bargain for the price. But if I'm going to spend $700 a night for a bedroom for two on Amtrak, I expect to be fed something substantially better. For the same room prices, Amtrak was offering meals that were a lot better until quite recently. And now, if the same four versions of Salisbury steak are the only choices for every lunch and dinner on a three-day cross-country trip (and another three days coming back), and the breakfast isn't even as good as what I could buy at my local convenience store, I'd rather stay home or find another way to travel.

 

[Ferroequinologist]

The reality is that Amtrak downgraded it's entire dining experience to save money. I assume they operate passenger service at a huge loss, and are striving to cut their losses. Step one: cut the least-used (or biggest loss) routes. Step two: cut staff. Step three: reduce the expense of carrying self-loading cargo.
Yes, the food is a shadow of its former self, but it's still fun eating while watching the countryside roll by outside large windows. And it's still better than typical airline chow. I will miss the experience I had on my first overnight trip on the Silver Star to NYP ten years ago, enjoying the steak, and having a server who, when I couldn't decide which dessert to have, said "No worries, I'll bring both." {sigh} The good old days are also both.

I disagree. It is NOT better than most airline food in COACH and if you compare apples with apples (first class Amtrak vs first class air), airline first class food is infinitely better and served attractively as well.

 

[Ferroequinologist]

I eat them myself, they're 1000 times better than those from the 50s, especially Healthy Choice and Lean Cuisine, and the Local Favorites, HEB Dinners and Night Hawk Steak Dinners.

Dangerously high sodium, generally unhealthy. Very bad as a regular diet.

 

[ehbowen]

There is a place in the world for the $2.52 Hungry Man dinner, and I don't scorn you or anyone who chooses to eat them. It might even be a bargain for the price. But if I'm going to spend $700 a night for a bedroom for two on Amtrak, I expect to be fed something substantially better. For the same room prices, Amtrak was offering meals that were a lot better until quite recently. And now, if the same four versions of Salisbury steak are the only choices for every lunch and dinner on a three-day cross-country trip (and another three days coming back), and the breakfast isn't even as good as what I could buy at my local convenience store, I'd rather stay home or find another way to travel.

This I can agree with completely. I really miss full service dining. It made the experience worthwhile.

I might tough out a trip under today's regime by my lonesome, but there's no way in hell that I'd repeat the trip I made in September 2016, when I took my parents on a fifteen-day circle tour of the West via Sunset Limited, City of New Orleans, Empire Builder, Cascades, Coast Starlight, California Zephyr and Texas Eagle.

Edit To Add: The lowlight of that otherwise spectacular trip—and both my parents agreed about this—was the downgraded food service aboard the CONO. They were asking, "Why is this train so much worse?"

 

[Nick Farr]

So, in short, do you believe that with the Flex Dining change Amtrak is saving money and:

1) Trying to attract customers who don't care about the food (and will presumably tolerate further service downgrades)
2) Trying to kill off the LD trains (except for the Auto Train which is presumably profitable)

 

[railiner]

I believe that Amtrak is simply trying to save money, in order to save its system. I don't believe they are trying to "kill off" any of their trains, even if some in government seem to be wanting that. They are just trying to get by, by whatever means they can, and still offer some 'sustenance', even if it doesn't please the "foodies" complaining about it.

I enjoyed the full service dining cars, just like everyone else, and hope that some day they can return, or at least better than the current offering, but I would rather have train service, with minimum accommodations, while maintaining the full network, then cutting trains and routes, but offering gourmet food service, if that was the alternatives....JMHO.

 

[Nick Farr]

I would rather have train service, with minimum accommodations, while maintaining the full network, then cutting trains and routes, but offering gourmet food service, if that was the alternatives....JMHO.

Same here.

I'm not sure how beating the flex dining horse to death is a good thing for Amtrak as a whole.

 

[fdaley]

So, in short, do you believe that with the Flex Dining change Amtrak is saving money and:

1) Trying to attract customers who don't care about the food (and will presumably tolerate further service downgrades)
2) Trying to kill off the LD trains (except for the Auto Train which is presumably profitable)

I can't tell if they're trying to kill the long-distance trains or if it's just a case of boneheaded management trying to meet the mandate of some members of Congress (or in the case of Mica, former members) who want to kill off the LD trains. But I'm quite sure flex dining is driving away business -- mine and that of many other posters here. I haven't seen any evidence of a significant effort to attract new customers.

I also question whether this project is really saving money. Of course there are many customers, perhaps a majority, who don't mind or will put up with it. But if 10 percent or 20 percent of Amtrak's previous pool of sleeper customers simply go away, the lost revenue might completely offset the entire "savings" of switching to flex dining. And if 40 percent of sleeper customers quit traveling or greatly reduce their travel on Amtrak, it will be a huge negative. It also appears to be driving away coach travelers who previously had the option of sit-down meal service and now have nothing but the cafe (and in some cases, such as the Lake Shore between NYC and Albany, nothing at all).

Now, there may be creative ways to feed us all something palatable without the full cost and work force of a traditional dining car -- witness the reports/photos from some European trains in the posts above. But with flex dining, it's like Amtrak isn't even trying. It has the feeling of a cost-cutting program dreamt up by managers who never actually use their company's service.

I want the long-distance trains to survive. But I want them to survive with a level of on-board experience that I'd actually want to use -- and that I could in good conscience recommend to others. With flex dining, I can't do either.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

So, in short, do you believe that with the Flex Dining change Amtrak is saving money and:

1) Trying to attract customers who don't care about the food (and will presumably tolerate further service downgrades)
2) Trying to kill off the LD trains (except for the Auto Train which is presumably profitable)

3) Cutting the food costs down to the bare minimum, in the easiest way possible without actually understanding how the long distance trains operate, and not understanding their customers.

The argument that there are customers to attract that want to pay $1,000 a room and be given a TV dinner is laughable.

 

[Ferroequinologist]

3) Cutting the food costs down to the bare minimum, in the easiest way possible without actually understanding how the long distance trains operate, and not understanding their customers.

The argument that there are customers to attract that want to pay $1,000 a room and be given a TV dinner is laughable.

Look, they started out with half way decent frozen food and then downgraded that to garbage. They don't care. It's very frustrating when you come across someone who is totally unreasonable and unwilling or incapable of empathy, mutual understanding or even compromise. Amtrak, management, is like that person.

 

[west point]

Um, many people DO take trains last-minute. Some even book their tickets AFTER the train has departed its originating station (and supply depot) for a 2 or 3 day run. And what if the train is delayed, adding more meal times? There are many, many travel scenarios that have people on trains finding they need to buy a meal they haven't had a chance to order in advance. There's also the opportunity for Amtrak to make a profit selling those meals along with other food-and-beverage impulse purchases.

Amtrak will ALWAYS need to be able to feed people decently without expecting passengers to order that food days in advance.

You missed a point of my posts. Amtrak should not just board meals at originating stations. For example if I book ATL - WASH at 0800 today and cut off time for ATL is 1200 then ATL would be able to board a meal I paid for. In my airline expeerience caters get a preliminary bookings a day ahead with a final count about 4 hours before departure. Catering truck is loaded with several flights . Then at expected arrival time truck leaves about 30 minutes + driving time before arrival of first aircraft in their truck.

 

[ehbowen]

You missed a point of my posts. Amtrak should not just board meals at originating stations. For example if I book ATL - WASH at 0800 today and cut off time for ATL is 1200 then ATL would be able to board a meal I paid for. In my airline expeerience caters get a preliminary bookings a day ahead with a final count about 4 hours before departure. Catering truck is loaded with several flights . Then at expected arrival time truck leaves about 30 minutes + driving time before arrival of first aircraft in their truck.

First off...which company is going to keep a driver and a truck on standby for one train a day which can arrive anywhere inside (or sometimes even outside) of a four-hour window? Not Amtrak...it'd be cheaper to staff and stock the dining car properly. An airline catering business? The few decent ones that are left (and I mean full service meals) probably don't have a great interest in, once again, servicing one train a day especially if it means that their driver has to leave airport property and navigate city traffic. And I think you'd have a hard time finding an airport caterer willing and able to prepare full service meals outside of major hubs. Restocking the Southwest Chief in Trinidad, Colorado? Good luck.

I know you mentioned local restaurants, but it's not a simple task to switch from cooking one or two meals at a time to cooking on the assembly line for a crowded Zephyr which might have, say, four hundred passengers. And, if you did, your business would be completely dependent upon Amtrak—what do you expect your putative caterer in Grand Junction to do if the train is annulled for an extended period due to a major washout? And how will the train be supplied for the month that it's traveling on the UP main through Cheyenne?

If we had multiple frequencies per day, consistent timekeeping, and the trains ran through well-populated areas as in Europe or India I'd say to revisit the idea. But given the layout of this country and our insistence on running on a shoestring both in terms of frequency and service I really can't think of a better solution than a properly staffed and stocked full service dining car. There's a reason it worked for well over a century.

 

[Qapla]

It has been mentioned that those in charge of Amtrak may not even ride the trains ... do you think any of those in charge have ever eaten the meals?

How do you think they would respond if their next meeting was served the meals they are serving on the trains? (Not counting what is served on the AT) Especially if they were served these same meals all week long!

 

[Nick Farr]

The argument that there are customers to attract that want to pay $1,000 a room and be given a TV dinner is laughable.

There absolutely are customers who will pay $1k and more for the views alone.

Add to that the overall novel experience, the privacy and the safety over flying across the country during a pandemic.

These passengers simply don't care about the food.

I had almost all the flex dining meals. I've definitely had way worse on road trips and in truck stop diners.

 

[user 14106]

There absolutely are customers who will pay $1k and more for the views alone.

Add to that the overall novel experience, the privacy and the safety over flying across the country during a pandemic.

These passengers simply don't care about the food.

I had almost all the flex dining meals. I've definitely had way worse on road trips and in truck stop diners.

If you don't like/can't fly and don't want to drive it's still a good choice and even with no food is infinitely better than Greyhound. As I have stated many times I am a millennial and never had dining car food in its heyday so its probably part of why I don't see this is as much of an issue as many. I have had the traditional dining - while it is superior to the flex dining and I hope it does return after the pandemic (along with the Acela first class meals which have not been discussed as much on this forum but have also had a major downgrade), it was Cracker Barrel quality food at best. Not horrible but not fine dining. I enjoyed the social dining experience but there's also nothing stopping me from going to the lounge after the pandemic. I am cautiously optimistic that a more full food service will return to at least some western trains (but this is Amtrak don't hold me to it) after the pandemic. But to me railroad travel is about the views, seeing corners of our country you can't otherwise see and the escape from the stresses of life and the ability to lie back in my sleeper and watch the world go by out my window or from the lounge and yes the social interaction with strangers. The downgraded meals are an annoyance, but don't stop me from doing what draws me to taking the train (along with my dislike of flying.)

 

[jiml]

I had almost all the flex dining meals. I've definitely had way worse on road trips and in truck stop diners.

...and on airplanes. People seem to forget how bad airline food got a few years ago. It started a downward slide after 9-11 and bottomed out before beginning a more recent recovery. At one point before buy-on-board started up, coach passengers got nothing on a domestic flight of any length and FC was really bad unless flying on long-haul international. The reviews are easily found on forums like Flyertalk and AirlineMeals.net. To most airlines' credit the trend was reversing until Covid19. Now all bets are off with airlines hovering near bankruptcy. VIA Rail's only currently-operating LD passenger train with sleepers and two overnights offers "a snack and a bottle of water" with nothing else available even for purchase. Could Amtrak do better than what is currently offered? Certainly, but it could also be much, much worse.

 

[Rasputin]

I have always enjoyed traveling by train but I am not about to spend $1000 plus on a long distance multiple-day Amtrak trip and receive pathetic food and service. I will gladly fly at a fraction of the cost and have more money to spend at my destination. And I don't really care whether the airline gives me any food or drink since it normally is a flight for only a few hours and I can eat before I board or at my destination.