Will full service dining ever return to the Western trains?

[me_little_me]

Young people cruise and that's not cheap (although cheaper than Amtrak) and I don't see a lot of them doing the sit-down dining. But that doesn't mean they don't like good food nicely presented. On a cruise trip you get lots of choices at the buffet and plenty of hot fresh food including at breakfast, salad bars, specialty food, different desserts. as well as different types of junk food (pizza, fries, etc) with different things each day, and you can eat any time. There is also real cutlery, glasses and plates as well as service (table cleanup, plate clearing, etc). The young like that, I'll admit.

So Amtrak's interpretation was very few unchanging choices, only bland, reheated, same food for lunch and dinner (and the next day), micro-sized salads with one kind of dressing, food thrown at you, dining car attendants that order you around and berate you for not knowing what you want, no cleanup and no friendliness, no real hot breakfast, and nothing worth remembering. And that was pre-Covid in the east.

Sorry, that's not what the young people I saw, wanted. The cafe, although paid, at least offered them the more enjoyable junk food and they brought that back to the diner as my wife sometimes did.

So if Amtrak wants to appeal to the young sleeper passengers, they need nice fresh salads with choice of dressing, a burger, fries, variety of desserts, choices of vegetables not pre-selected and mixed in the protein, choices of protein, fresh rolls, better breakfasts and dump the pre-packaged sugar breakfasts and the two lookalike desserts.

They also need to provide real cutlery, plates, and some semblance of service.

 

[Willbridge]

As for the attitude of OBS personnel, I haven't been east of Chicago that much, but the recent complaints here remind me of the Southern Pacific after it turned hostile in 1955 or so. Becoming aware that their management wanted to get rid of them and their trains, they turned nasty and spiteful. I recall employees yelling at each other and the customers over a triple-booked coach seat, for example. They dragged the better staff down with them. (A friend who worked in the Portland reservation bureau in the 1960's was told by his doctor to retire to save his life.)

That isn't always how it works out. The employees on the Rio Grande narrow-gauge solicited business themselves and built up the tourist potential, even though they knew that the top people in Denver were eager to rid themselves of the anachronism. Perhaps it's the scale of the operation that makes a difference, or perhaps it's working out of a perpetually slim labor market that focuses minds on customer service.

Photo: the Rio Grande station agent whose wife helped him mail promotional literature to travel agents, tour operators, writers, etc. He was on his way from Durango to a lunch meeting with Silverton business people. Of course, he took the train.

 

[sldispatcher]

I wish Amtrak would get out of the sleeper/food business altogether. Let the service be transitioned over to a 3rd party provider. Amtrak could concentrate on providing the basic service (Coach) and running the train across the rails and let a private provider take on the sleeper/food service. I have a feeling the sleeper revenue is so important to Amtrak that they will never "do the right thing". I also do not agree with Congress' obsession over food costs.

 

[Nick Farr]

I wish Amtrak would get out of the sleeper/food business altogether.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

That would almost certainly mean that the product itself dies.

I also do not agree with Congress' obsession over food costs.

There are those in Congress who simply want Amtrak to die. If they can't stab it in the heart, they'll knick it where they can.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

That would almost certainly mean that the product itself dies.



There are those in Congress who simply want Amtrak to die. If they can't stab it in the heart, they'll knick it where they can.

This!

 

[Qapla]

From all apparent results it seems that the FAA, NTSB, SEC, FCC and a few other departments work just fine. The US has been a leader in helping to establish safety standards for air travel and is often requested to help with the investigations even when a crash happens in another country by a non-US airline.

They also to a pretty good job at building roads, bridges and naval seaports.

So, why can't they run a Amtrak and the USPS?

Maybe because they are going at it wrong from the premise that it is a business that needs to turn a profit instead of a service like those other services.

 

[Nick Farr]

From all apparent results it seems that the FAA, NTSB, SEC, FCC and a few other departments work just fine. The US has been a leader in helping to establish safety standards for air travel and is often requested to help with the investigations even when a crash happens in another country by a non-US airline.

And then came the 737-MAX, where an undocumented software glitch killed 246 people.

Maybe because they are going at it wrong from the premise that it is a business that needs to turn a profit instead of a service like those other services.

This is where you're partially correct. Roads are not a profitable enterprise--this is why governments run the roads and tax fuel, registration, etc.

If you split the railroads themselves from the services that run on them and make dispatch something akin to Air Traffic Control, it is possible for railroad services to be profitable.

The problem is that Amtrak was created as a bailout of failed government passenger services. There was no private enterprise to hand them over to, nor was there any real private enterprise that wanted to assume responsibility for a national passenger rail network.

Amtrak also suffers from an agency problem. Whereas Airlines primary customer are their passengers, Amtrak's primary customers outside of the NEC are the Federal and State government. Amtrak doesn't have competitors that would encourage them to compete on service.

Even private airlines get government bailouts every 10 to 20 years based on economic conditions (and never pay that back in good times, where they use spare cash for stock buybacks). Yet, planes land, depart and are controlled by entities that are government sponsored--ones they do not own. This allows them to differentiate based on service and price provided to the customer.

 

[railiner]

The problem is that Amtrak was created as a bailout of failed government passenger services.

Quite the contrary...the government bailed out passenger trains from extinction from private operators....

 

[jruff001]

Who in their right mind would pay almost $1900 for a two night trip? A 7day Alaskan cruise and a 12 day transatlantic cruise costs just a bit more. Outrageous! Even $500 is high for a roomette.

Why are people talking like that is per person? Roomettes and bedrooms are built for more than one person.

 

[tgstubbs1]

Why are people talking like that is per person? Roomettes and bedrooms are built for more than one person.

It's a bit difficult to compare directly. Cruises are usually priced on 'double occupancy'. The single price will be quite a bit higher, almost 2x. AMTRAK prices the rooms separately from the basic fare. It would be interesting to create a comparison based on double occupancy.

 

[Sidney]

I was referring to two people. The sleeper price is for two people. Rail fare is extra. I still maintain almost $1900 for a two night trip is outrageous,even with the great food.

 

[Nick Farr]

Quite the contrary...the government bailed out passenger trains from extinction from private operators....

We might be saying the same thing, we might not be.

The Rail Passenger Service Act which created Amtrak (i.e. NPRC) I view as a bailout. Participating railroads basically shed any liabilities or obligations to run passenger service into the NRPC in exchange for that same passenger rolling stock that was basically useless to them.

They did not have to give up their track or real estate, they were perfectly free to continue running profitable freight services and/or sell off other parts of their network for cash. The government basically bought unprofitable services from them that they were otherwise required to continue to run by law.

In a conventional bankruptcy, the only other way out of ICC obligations, all of those valuable, lucrative assets of the railroads would be subject to sell to settle creditor debts.

 

[tgstubbs1]

I was referring to two people. The sleeper price is for two people. Rail fare is extra. I still maintain almost $1900 for a two night trip is outrageous,even with the great food.

you're right. I know cruises were doing pretty good business before the virus. Maybe much better value than the train?

 

[Qapla]

The difference is single and double occupancy on Amtrak is only the cost of the second person's fare (often based on coach fare)

The sleeper is a separate charge and remains the same regardless if one or two people occupy the cabin.

 

[tgstubbs1]

The difference is single and double occupancy on Amtrak is only the cost of the second person's fare (often based on coach fare)

The sleeper is a separate charge and remains the same regardless if one or two people occupy the cabin.

Right, and on a boat you'd pay almost twice the double occupancy rate if you are single. In both cases a single occupant pays for the whole room. No such thing as a free lunch I guess.

Considering the ample food on ships, which is a big attraction for vacationers, the price per night might be better than Amtrak. They have a lot of other luxuries, too. I guess people usually don't get seasick, but a number of them fall overboard.

 

[niemi24s]

Wife and I take occasional cruises but when bored (happens a lot up here in the Winter) I kill time by planning for cruises and rail travel to and from the cruise ports. Our favorite cruise line is Holland America and we always take the cheapest inside cabins. My favorite way to compare the costs of cruises is by calculating their cost per night per person.

• The dozen or so seven night cruises looked at before Covid 19 cost in the range of $95 to $115 per night per person, including gratuities.
• Getting us to and from the cruise port on Amtrak (say, MKE to SAN) in a low bucket Roomette costs about $185 per night per person, including parking in MKE, a few meals and one night in a hotel in SAN.
• The cost per night per person for such a 13 night junket runs about $143 with the train travel portion accounting for about 60% of the total cost.

Which is the best (has the most) value? I'm quite certain we all have our own opinions - just like we all have our own bellybuttons.

 

[jruff001]

Cruises are usually priced on 'double occupancy'.

Also, I think the comparison to a cruise is more or less useless. Cruises are SOLELY selling the experience, whereas - foamers aside - a lot of people take Amtrak to actually get from Point A to Point B (in addition to the experience). Different concept and reason for being.

 

[jruff001]

I was referring to two people. The sleeper price is for two people. Rail fare is extra. I still maintain almost $1900 for a two night trip is outrageous,even with the great food.

OK I just looked at Amtrak.com for CHI-SEA on 22 Sep. and it showed a roomette for two people for $772 (so that would include rail fare for two and the accommodation charge), which is $386pp.

 

[Qapla]

The lowest price for that trip is $772 but other sleeper rates are $871, $1447, and $1780

Another way to look at that pricing is that the roomette at the lowest fare cost $236 per night ... how does that compare to similarly priced nighttime accommodations for room, comfort and amenities?

 

[jruff001]

The lowest price for that trip is $772 but other sleeper rates are $871, $1447, and $1780

Another way to look at that pricing is that the roomette at the lowest fare cost $236 per night ... how does that compare to similarly priced nighttime accommodations for room, comfort and amenities?

I am not sure what you mean. What else are you thinking it should be compared to?

 

[AM_ROAD]

Part of the problems is to is the general public's standards have also lowered as well. Most travelers associate traveling meals with airline food, most never knew what it was like to get a giant baked potato on the NP, or a fresh steak on the SOU. I was lucky to have a Chef on the Crescent in 2001 that had worked on the train since the Southern ran her. I know the difference and I got the extreme tail end of it.

I'm new here (I think it has been talked about), but I do wonder if Amtrak has looked back into a concept of Slumbercoaches. It's very similar to what many Business Class passengers take on airlines such as Emirates, and the folding beds they had are similar to what you find on a Superliner or Viewliner. From what I read the few Slumbercoaches on Amtrak were not too much more expensive than a coach seat. Would the economics of that have to change?

 

[crescent-zephyr]

foamers aside - a lot of people take Amtrak to actually get from Point A to Point B (in addition to the experience). Different concept and reason for being.

If I want to foam (railfan..) I go to Durango or Strasburg etc. I take Amtrak to get somewhere.. and yes enjoy the train travel as well. On any given day there are probably just as many people making “points runs” on airlines (traveling just for the points promotions...) as there are railfans who are riding purely for a joy ride.

 

[niemi24s]

OK I just looked at Amtrak.com for CHI-SEA on 22 Sep. and it showed a roomette for two people for $772 (so that would include rail fare for two and the accommodation charge), which is $386pp.

The accommodation charge for this low bucket trip happens to be $772 - (2 X $245) = $772 - $490 = $282 in which the $245 is the rail fare (coach fare) for one adult that's one bucket above the Value Fare of $188. That $772 for a two night trip for two adults works out $193 per person per night. And that cost is probably comparable to a much nicer berth on a nice cruise ship for a 7 day cruise.

But when making a comparison between that sleeper trip or one in Coach on the same train and date, the Coach fare for two adults is $300 or $75 per person per night or $193 - $75 = $118 more per night per person for the Roomette.

 

[Willbridge]

Part of the problems is to is the general public's standards have also lowered as well. Most travelers associate traveling meals with airline food, most never knew what it was like to get a giant baked potato on the NP, or a fresh steak on the SOU. I was lucky to have a Chef on the Crescent in 2001 that had worked on the train since the Southern ran her. I know the difference and I got the extreme tail end of it.

I'm new here (I think it has been talked about), but I do wonder if Amtrak has looked back into a concept of Slumbercoaches. It's very similar to what many Business Class passengers take on airlines such as Emirates, and the folding beds they had are similar to what you find on a Superliner or Viewliner. From what I read the few Slumbercoaches on Amtrak were not too much more expensive than a coach seat. Would the economics of that have to change?

Slumbercoaches are fondly recalled and have been discussed here from time to time. One point of discussion is their economics vs. Superliner roomettes.

NP baked potatoes are also fondly recalled, although the UP is actually the best alignment for potato growers.

 

[tgstubbs1]

The one restaurant job I had in college ( I lasted almost 6 weeks before being released for apparent lack of taste) we would wrap up a bunch of potatoes in foil and get them ready to bake. After they were baked I think they kept them in a warming drawer until needed.

Couldn't Amtrak contract with a local vendor somewhere to bake 'em and then have them ready for a train to pick up?
They could have a big box ready to go. Maybe a bunch of salads, too.