Will full service dining ever return to the Western trains?

[crescent-zephyr]

At least for breakfast you can fill up on cereal, yogurt, and fruit. You can actually get pretty close to the “continental” breakfast plate from the full diner menu.

For lunch and dinner... cafe has better options for me but you might as well order one of the dishes and see if it’s to your liking. The shrimp and sausage rice bowl isn’t great but it was ok and didn’t taste like spoonfuls of salt like the beef dish did.

Still... cheese and cracker tray, hummus, and salad from the cafe menu is what I’d be going for if I ever take a multi day trip. (I can eat 1 or 2 flex meals if I have to...).

 

[Nick Farr]

When I look at the data from FY19, sleeper passengers represent about 15 percent of travelers on the long-distance network. But they account for 41 percent of revenue, or about $190 million for the year.

You have to preface this by saying that the 85% of those travelers pretty much make up the bulk of why the LD network is supported in Congress. Mr. Big Shot Ottumwa, IA and thousands like him keep donating to their congressional delegation as long as the train keeps stopping there.

This is certainly the approach Amtrak is taking: Cut the costs and hope that most riders will think it's OK or at least put up with it if they want to travel by train. And by all accounts many riders are willing to tolerate it. But if you look at the amount of revenue sleeper customers provide, it wouldn't take that much loss of ridership for the change to have a negative impact.

The missing assumption behind your numbers is that all that sleeper business is repeat business--which it is not. I wish I could find the data source, but not even 30% of the passenger mileage on Amtrak in sleepers is repeat business. You'd need to find data saying that a third of the repeat customer passengers will never travel again because of the food before you hit the cost savings numbers you're using.

Especially with COVID, the passengers who are most likely to be put off by the food are probably not going to travel. With the service cuts, they'll be replaced by those who either are going on their bucket list trip or don't mind the food.

Finally, the real savings Amtrak is trying to achieve are in cutting staff and trimming down equipment costs.

Even the gorgeous meals your see on trains in Europe are still just frozen or refrigerated, heated up and plated.

 

[fdaley]

I wish I could find the data source, but not even 30% of the passenger mileage on Amtrak in sleepers is repeat business.

I don't know where this figure comes from, but from my experience on many cross-country Amtrak trips, it doesn't seem remotely accurate. The vast majority of sleeper customers I encountered (and talked with over dining car meals) were repeat customers, if perhaps infrequent ones. Many traveled once or twice a year, or every two or three years. Some made the same (usually shorter) trip several times a year. Occasionally I would meet international tourists or someone who'd say they'd never been on a train before, but I don't think these travelers accounted for even 20 percent.

 

[tgstubbs1]

I read that airlines are having to dispose or resell thousands of mixed nuts and other airline snacks. Some of the vendors are desparate, too, with so much excessive inventory and sales don't look like they will get better very soon.

Maybe Amtrak could get some deals. I read long distance travel business on trains isn't hurting as much as NEC and airlines.

 

[Nick Farr]

I don't know where this figure comes from, but from my experience on many cross-country Amtrak trips, it doesn't seem remotely accurate. The vast majority of sleeper customers I encountered (and talked with over dining car meals) were repeat customers, if perhaps infrequent ones.

I've had the exact opposite experience. Of course, it depends on the route, time of year, etc. I travelled twice on the CZ during COVID, and I didn't run across a single repeat customer.

That being said, I think the evidence is pretty clear that Amtrak is not interested in cultivating repeat business that will cost them more to service.

We can fully expect future service cuts. They're not investing in the product and they're really handcuffed by staffing and statute considerations they can't change.

They'll also probably get decent utilization at the lower service levels too.

 

[MARC Rider]

Even the gorgeous meals your see on trains in Europe are still just frozen or refrigerated, heated up and plated.

Even the traditional Amtrak dining car fare (with a few exceptions) which is being remembered fondly is "just frozen or refrigerated, heated up, and plated," I believe this is also true of most chain restaurants off the rails, too.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Even the traditional Amtrak dining car fare (with a few exceptions) which is being remembered fondly is "just frozen or refrigerated, heated up, and plated," I believe this is also true of most chain restaurants off the rails, too.

There’s a reason chain restaurant food tastes so consistent... and it’s not the consistent training of the cooks!

 

[fdaley]

I travelled twice on the CZ during COVID, and I didn't run across a single repeat customer.

So on your two trips, none of the other passengers you met had ever taken an Amtrak sleeper before? If so, I'd say that's highly unusual and likely a function of who's traveling (and who isn't) during the pandemic. Certainly the repeat customers I've met have skewed older, so I'd imagine a lot of them would be postponing all unnecessary travel for now.

I don't have a problem at all with Amtrak switching to the flex meals systemwide during the pandemic, to reduce health/safety risks and also to save money at a time when ridership is off by somewhere between 75 and 90 percent. My concern is that by next summer, or whenever we've managed to control the virus and/or have a vaccine, the ridership on the LD trains, and especially the western trains, isn't going to rebound to anything close to normal, let alone grow, unless there's a much better plan for meal service -- either by restoring traditional dining (which Amtrak still claims it plans to do on the western trains) or by developing something new that's more akin to the European models we've discussed.

Even the traditional Amtrak dining car fare (with a few exceptions) which is being remembered fondly is "just frozen or refrigerated, heated up, and plated," I believe this is also true of most chain restaurants off the rails, too.

I have no doubt that this is true, but the food quality and presentation were still an order of magnitude better than what we have now. As some others here have put it, it's the difference between dinner at Applebee's and having a Hungry Man dinner at home. For me as a repeat customer, it's the difference between whether I'll book another long-distance trip on Amtrak or not.

 

[Nick Farr]

Even the traditional Amtrak dining car fare (with a few exceptions) which is being remembered fondly is "just frozen or refrigerated, heated up, and plated," I believe this is also true of most chain restaurants off the rails, too.

By "heating up" I mean throwing a plastic wrapped container in a convection or microwave oven. This is what they almost always do on trains and planes.

McDonald's, for example, went to cooking fresh instead of frozen beef. There's other chain restaurants that do a lot of cooking or prep for the raw ingredients before they get to final preparation. Chipotle's steak is seasoned and partially cooked before it hits the restaurant, but it's cooked on a grill before it hits the burritos.

My only argument here is that it's possible to have OBS prepare meals like flight attendants prepare meals without ever involving anything like cooking.

The one-dish-and-done with no plating is the easiest and current approach, but others are possible.

 

[Nick Farr]

So on your two trips, none of the other passengers you met had ever taken an Amtrak sleeper before?

Granted, my ability to talk to passengers was seriously curtailed because COVID. I do think it makes sense, a lot of those passengers had planned that trip for years and didn't want to give it up.

In previous trips I've noticed it at about a third of passenger mileage. If they had a scanner, I just assumed they were repeat business. I liked to try to get to know my neighbors.

I don't have a problem at all with Amtrak switching to the flex meals systemwide during the pandemic, to reduce health/safety risks and also to save money at a time when ridership is off by somewhere between 75 and 90 percent. My concern is that by next summer, or whenever we've managed to control the virus and/or have a vaccine, the ridership on the LD trains, and especially the western trains, isn't going to rebound to anything close to normal, let alone grow, unless there's a much better plan for meal service --

Here's where I disagree:

Younger travelers simply don't care that much about the food. The flex dining options are more variety in than there was in the past and allow for more customization and faster menu swaps than before.

Despite the drop in quality, there's probably enough younger travelers that are perfectly happy with the privacy and the view to make up for the lost meal experience.

Younger travelers who can afford sleepers tend to be more urban and not have cars.

The demographic realities are pointing away from full service dining.

From a personal standpoint, I'd rather the flex dining in my room over a steak and getting barked at by servers. While I've had great conversations, I've also had incredibly awkward meals seated with people who pretended I didn't exist. The full service dining model is just not what tomorrow's travelers are going to want.

The other thing I hope for is that people are going to figure out that sleeper car travel is the safest form of transportation across the country. You can keep yourself totally isolated while the country goes by.

 

[joelkfla]

In previous trips I've noticed it at about a third of passenger mileage. If they had a scanner, I just assumed they were repeat business. I liked to try to get to know my neighbors.

That's true, but certainly not all-encompassing. I would venture to guess that the vast majority of people who enjoy riding a LD train are not train chasers.

 

[railiner]

That's true, but certainly not all-encompassing. I would venture to guess that the vast majority of people who enjoy riding a LD train are not train chasers.

Agreed! Unless you are on a detour or some other railfan attraction, you will probably see less than one scanner on an average train....

 

[Nick Farr]

That's true, but certainly not all-encompassing. I would venture to guess that the vast majority of people who enjoy riding a LD train are not train chasers.

Well, we are talking about sleeper car passengers. The ones with scanners generally keep to themselves and don't like interacting with others. They got dinner in their rooms even before that was common. Most of them were hidden, I only happened to hear them was because I had my own scanner in an earbud and I was walking by. I heard the echo of the faint chatter generated by a freight train with brake problem. I noticed five between two sleepers monitoring that incident. I'm just saying, there's a lot more out there than you'd think. I used to keep mine super hidden, but then didn't really bother. I'm also somewhat certain there wasn't a railfan event on.

The most common repeat sleepers I saw were those making an overnight between a large city and a smaller city, like Ottumwa to Denver or Winemucca to Omaha. In these cases, it's really less time for them to take the train than driving to a major airport and flying--plus they don't lose a day of travel. They were passengers known to the conductors and SCAs.

After that, in my anecdotal experience, it's families with kids or people traveling to see family.

You can tell whether or not they're a repeat customer by the way they talk to the SCA when they're greeted.

 

[me_little_me]

Granted, my ability to talk to passengers was seriously curtailed because COVID. I do think it makes sense, a lot of those passengers had planned that trip for years and didn't want to give it up.

In previous trips I've noticed it at about a third of passenger mileage. If they had a scanner, I just assumed they were repeat business. I liked to try to get to know my neighbors.



Here's where I disagree:

Younger travelers simply don't care that much about the food. The flex dining options are more variety in than there was in the past and allow for more customization and faster menu swaps than before.

Despite the drop in quality, there's probably enough younger travelers that are perfectly happy with the privacy and the view to make up for the lost meal experience.

Younger travelers who can afford sleepers tend to be more urban and not have cars.

The demographic realities are pointing away from full service dining.

From a personal standpoint, I'd rather the flex dining in my room over a steak and getting barked at by servers. While I've had great conversations, I've also had incredibly awkward meals seated with people who pretended I didn't exist. The full service dining model is just not what tomorrow's travelers are going to want.

The other thing I hope for is that people are going to figure out that sleeper car travel is the safest form of transportation across the country. You can keep yourself totally isolated while the country goes by.

Sounds like you are describing yourself. That doesn't mean the majority think the same.

 

[Nick Farr]

Sounds like you are describing yourself. That doesn't mean the majority think the same.

Yes, when I say "from a personal standpoint", I'm arguing my specific preferences.

That being said, even when just contemplating the respondents in this forum, I don't see how you can come to another conclusion on the demographic trends. I'm sure there are Boomers who could care less about the meals and Gen Z folk lamenting the loss of our precious Traditional Dining but on the whole, Amtrak made the decision to run a leaner product at a higher price with a lower frequency to capture the market that doesn't really care about service or on-board offerings.

To prove my point: Why did they keep Traditional Dining on the Auto Train? How do you think the car-owning demographic of the Auto Train differs from other rail passengers?

 

[crescent-zephyr]

to capture the market that doesn't really care about service or on-board offerings.

I’m trying to think of any industry that says “we want to capture the market that doesn’t really care about service”

Maybe mega bus and spirit airlines? But neither offer a high priced product. If Amtrak wants to be a budget travel option, they need to be charging budget prices and not premium prices.

 

[joelkfla]

To prove my point: Why did they keep Traditional Dining on the Auto Train? How do you think the car-owning demographic of the Auto Train differs from other rail passengers?

Maybe it's not a matter of demographics, but just not wanting to jeopardize a moneymaker. (The Auto Train is profitable, isn't it?)

 

[Nick Farr]

I’m trying to think of any industry that says “we want to capture the market that doesn’t really care about service”

Amtrak isn't in an industry, it's a sole-source provider of intercity passenger rail whose services are largely set and determined by Congress. Amtrak management largely serves Congressional customers before its passenger customers.

I'm trying to think of another industry where Congress forces a corporation to sell unprofitable activities to customers. The USPS is the only other example I can think of.

Both the USPS and Amtrak are mandated by taxpayer dollars to provide baseline levels of service in the public interest. Private concerns siphon off the most profitable business from each.

At some point, USPS realized they could make a lot more money selling a flat-rate product to any door in the country. If it ships, it fits. They changed their business model and package volume went up. It supported a huge crop of makers and was an enabler of industries that saved a lot of people in this country. E-bay, Etsy, Amazon Sellers, etc and the industries they grew would probably would not have been as possible without the USPS subsidy.

Amtrak is doing a similar thing. Amtrak found was that passengers will continue to pay high sleeper car prices to have a room to themselves on a long trip. When I purchase a sleeper car, I'm purchasing just that--a room to myself. The option to be well rested on a transcontinental journey in peace is worth the high price they charge..

 

[Palmland]

Amtrak is doing a similar thing. Amtrak found was that passengers will continue to pay high sleeper car prices to have a room to themselves on a long trip. When I purchase a sleeper car, I'm purchasing just that--a room to myself. The option to be well rested on a transcontinental journey in peace is worth the high price they charge.

I agree with this. And, for that high price the passenger should also expect that the equipment is well maintained and the service consistently acceptable.

By the same logic if the dining experience is important to the traveler, shouldn't the dining car meals be of good quality, presented and served consistently well but the passenger pays a premium for it? For all others, head to the cafe with the price included in the fare.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

By the same logic if the dining experience is important to the traveler, shouldn't the dining car meals be of good quality, presented and served consistently well but the passenger pays a premium for it?

A bedroom on the empire builder for 1, departing September 7, shows a $1,880 price tag. What kind of premium should be charged beyond that?

Roomette is $527.

Amtrak was already charging a premium for a plate of scrambled eggs and a basic steak dinner with a prepackaged slice of cheesecake.

 

[Palmland]

i think we all agree Amtrak pricing is bizarre. A bedroom Sept 22 ChI-Seattle is $895. But the reality is Amtrak food is not healthy, is bland and tasteless, and served by indifferent staff.

Perhaps that bedroom cost could be lowered if it only included the cost of a basic cafe car meal. If you want a meal that you might get in a good moderately priced restaurant, I’d be willing to pay for it.

This of course assumes we are beyond COVID-19 that provides cover for Amtrak to raise prices and lower quality.

 

[Sidney]

Who in their right mind would pay almost $1900 for a two night trip? A 7day Alaskan cruise and a 12 day transatlantic cruise costs just a bit more. Outrageous! Even $500 is high for a roomette. With the calibar of food they are serving Amtrak is really charging way more than they should,but if people are willing to pay it..I love riding but I would never pay more than low bucket.

 

[Qapla]

almost $1900 for a two night trip - Outrageous! Even $500 is high for a roomette.

 

[fdaley]

Despite the drop in quality, there's probably enough younger travelers that are perfectly happy with the privacy and the view to make up for the lost meal experience.

This may be true in theory, and it's certainly what Amtrak's management is saying to justify the change. But for most businesses, repeat customers are gold, and the business that alienates them does so at its peril.

When I've traveled in Amtrak's sleeping cars over the past 35 years, I've seen very few people under 50. I used to think the sleeper market was doomed by demographics -- that the older set that traveled this way would simply die off -- but actually it turned out that as older travelers passed off the scene, new 50-somethings came along to replace them. If doing away with dining service now means that a fair chunk of the current, older clientele quits or cuts back on long-distance train travel, Amtrak will need to reach out to a lot of younger riders, who aren't in the habit of using its service now, to get them to try it. Even if it succeeds at this, many of them are unlikely to become repeat customers.

People in the 25-45 age group may care less about food quality, but they are also less likely to have the financial means to afford Amtrak's sleeper fares. Among those that do, many have work and family commitments that weigh against taking a two- or three-night train trip to cover a distance they can fly in a few hours. And when they get to be of an age where they have the time and money to enjoy sleeping car travel, I suspect some of them will care more about the food quality than they do now.

 

[Nick Farr]

Who in their right mind would pay almost $1900 for a two night trip? A 7day Alaskan cruise and a 12 day transatlantic cruise costs just a bit more. Outrageous! Even $500 is high for a roomette. With the calibar of food they are serving Amtrak is really charging way more than they should,but if people are willing to pay it..I love riding but I would never pay more than low bucket.

Are we actually allowed to leave the country yet? Are cruise lines running?