Acela II RFP information announcement

[Andrew]

Or more like in an ideal world when they wish to be able to acquire them. That does not mean it will happen anytime around then. I have heard from a very reliable source that the current speculation is that the Amfleet Is and IIs will go through another round of rebuilding before any real new single level cars will materialize. Which suggests that the 2019 date is a fantasy that everyone wishes would come true, but no one is counting on.

How many years does a typical rebuilding enable? Would you see Amtrak using capital expenditures or a RRIF Loan for the Amfleet replacement? I think it would be interesting for CAF to build the Amfleet long distance coaches, and another company the other coaches.

I bet the Amfleet Coach contract will be awarded to a manufacturer that has their facility in New York State.

And, with regards to the Acela, I know that Kawasaki and Hyundai Rotem also bid. It would be cool to find out what their proposed train-sets looked like.

 

[jis]

I don't have enough information to meaningfully speculate. I am just quoting a senior Amtrak person that I happen to have discussed this matter with in the recent past.

Meanwhile you can keep fantasizing without any foundation in reality all you want.

 

[CCC1007]

Or more like in an ideal world when they wish to be able to acquire them. That does not mean it will happen anytime around then. I have heard from a very reliable source that the current speculation is that the Amfleet Is and IIs will go through another round of rebuilding before any real new single level cars will materialize. Which suggests that the 2019 date is a fantasy that everyone wishes would come true, but no one is counting on.

How many years does a typical rebuilding enable? Would you see Amtrak using capital expenditures or a RRIF Loan for the Amfleet replacement? I think it would be interesting for CAF to build the Amfleet long distance coaches, and another company the other coaches.

I bet the Amfleet Coach contract will be awarded to a manufacturer that has their facility in New York State.

And, with regards to the Acela, I know that Kawasaki and Hyundai Rotem also bid. It would be cool to find out what their proposed train-sets looked like.

Please stop referring to the new coaches as "amfleet" as they most certainly will not share major structural design with the amfleets in service now. It would be better to call them what they are going to be, which is "new single level" cars.

 

[afigg]

However, something that involves competitive bidding will not be released until the results of the process are firmly in place. you can rest assured about that. It is sitting firmly in the Exempt category. Only those that have standing to challenge an award can open up the process, not just some random person, unless there is immense proof of malafide I suppose, which puts the whole thing in a different ballpark, and then you have to trace the money and see who might help and who might block and play accordingly.

Yes, many of the response documents in a competitive bid would be confidential regardless as they contain proprietary information from the respective bidder on costs, design, manufacturing capabilities, salaries, etc that the vendors don't their competitors to see. The only key document that I would expect Amtrak to make available if pushed hard enough is the summary of the technical and contract bid review, the scores for the bids, and the justification for the contract selection.

This discussion about a FOIA request is sort of silly because the contract award has not even been announced yet. When it is announced, hopefully in the next month. we will learn more about the winning bid and assuming it is awarded to Alstom, highlights of what the design is and capabilities. Then we can begin the guessing game of how much slippage there will be from the initial announced delivery and production schedule.

 

[afigg]

How many years does a typical rebuilding enable? Would you see Amtrak using capital expenditures or a RRIF Loan for the Amfleet replacement? I think it would be interesting for CAF to build the Amfleet long distance coaches, and another company the other coaches.

I bet the Amfleet Coach contract will be awarded to a manufacturer that has their facility in New York State.

As the forum member who started this thread back in 2013, I want to point out that the title of this thread is "Acela II RFP information announcement". While the effort moved on to a second RFP round and a long dragged out process in awarding the contract, I don't see anything about Amfleets and single level coach car replacements or RFP for such in the title. If you want to discuss the issues of a rebuild/refurb of the remaining Amfleet cars or a replacement order, how about taking such posts to either an existing thread or start a new one on the topic? Let's not clutter up a thread on the hopefully pending new HSR trainset order with clearly off-topic stuff. Just saying.

Edit: wording fix.

 

[Andrew]

For the big Acela II Loan, besides the train sets, spare parts, and upgrades to the WAS and the Train yard, what other improvements are being financed by the anticipated loan?

 

[CCC1007]

For the big Acela II Loan, besides the train sets, spare parts, and upgrades to the WAS and the Train yard, what other improvements are being financed by the anticipated loan?

Not likely, modifying an existing European or Asian design to meet our standards is a very expensive proposition, almost as expensive as designing a new type. There will be little to no money leftover.

 

[Acela150]

For the big Acela II Loan, besides the train sets, spare parts, and upgrades to the WAS and the Train yard, what other improvements are being financed by the anticipated loan?

Not likely, modifying an existing European or Asian design to meet our standards is a very expensive proposition, almost as expensive as designing a new type. There will be little to no money leftover.

IINM he is referring to things such as platform length..

I don't know if they are planning on making a longer train set.

 

[PRR 60]

For the big Acela II Loan, besides the train sets, spare parts, and upgrades to the WAS and the Train yard, what other improvements are being financed by the anticipated loan?

Not likely, modifying an existing European or Asian design to meet our standards is a very expensive proposition, almost as expensive as designing a new type. There will be little to no money leftover.

IINM he is referring to things such as platform length..

I don't know if they are planning on making a longer train set.

The last I heard, the answer is no. The maximum length of the new trainset is limited to the length of the existing Acela trainset (672.6 feet from first to last axle).

 

[jis]

I doubt that they would need any serious platform length work even if they were to go for longer trains since AFAIR all Acela stops (perhaps except New Haven and Stamford, have platforms long enough to hold a 11 car consist including power head. I doubt they will deploy such a long unit in the US. This is not Europe or India or China (yet). Maybe someday.

 

[afigg]

For the big Acela II Loan, besides the train sets, spare parts, and upgrades to the WAS and the Train yard, what other improvements are being financed by the anticipated loan?

According to statements by Boardman and IIRC, in several reports, the RRIF loan was going to be used to pay for undercutting the trackbed on the WAS-NYP part of the NEC. The track bed is in poor condition on some parts and the justification was for a smoother ride for the new HSR trainsets (and the rest of the trains operating on the southern NEC). If they ever close the deal and finalize the RRIF loan, I expect what the $2.45 billion loan will be used for, will be broken down at a high level in either the news release or, more likely, the articles by the railroad trade press.

Would be good if they could get the contract signed off and make the award announcement before the 2nd anniversary of the RFP and submitting the RRIF loan application (July, 2014). :huh:

 

[west point]

The Acela - 2s having the same length comes down to servicing facilities. BOS South Hampton St servicing facility is limited to the present -1s' length. Others have posted that there is not any room to lengthen the facility. Also you will note that the length is what limits Regionals to 8 cars as well. Another limitation is the platform length of BOS south station. The rebuilding of the station for longer platforms appears a very long time coming to get longer platforms. Others can post the plans for the station and a new servicing area.

See South station DEIS

Understand that Sunnyside and Ivy city facilities are same length but others with more knowledge can enlighten us as to dimensions & expansion possibilities.?

It may be that the -2s can add mid train equipment in the future once ( if ) servicing facilities are expanded

At one time Amtrak talked about buying 40 extra -1 cars to insert 2 additional into each existing -1 train set but that was cancelled and probably one reason was the servicing facilities' lengths. Along that same vein the thought that maybe some -1s could be broken up and added to present -1s now seems farfetched.

 

[Ryan]

Ivy City has the space:

 

[west point]

So Ivy city has the space now if Sunnyside ? Then possible longer Acelas could operate NYP <> WASH ?

 

[jis]

Sunnyside is currently a mess since it has in effect been deconstructed as part of the East Side Access project and is being reconstructed with significantly different layout. If Amtrak wished to find space there I am sure they could at this point in time. I have no idea what their final plans are. Meanwhile the construction of ESA through/under Sunnyside and the Harold Amtrak bypass carries on.... and on ... and on...with completion dates slipping on and on with passing years. It has already become the New York version of the Boston Big Dig, and hey, we haven;t even started on the real big one yet ... the Hudson Tunnel project.

But this thread is about Acela II. I think unless they made the requirement for being to operate multiple units hooked together in regular service much stronger than the last time, it is shortsighted to restrict train lengths to be so short, specially since they are not really planning on quarter hourly service or anything like that.

 

[mrpresident1776]

The Acela - 2s having the same length comes down to servicing facilities. BOS South Hampton St servicing facility is limited to the present -1s' length. Others have posted that there is not any room to lengthen the facility. Also you will note that the length is what limits Regionals to 8 cars as well. Another limitation is the platform length of BOS south station. The rebuilding of the station for longer platforms appears a very long time coming to get longer platforms. Others can post the plans for the station and a new servicing area.

See South station DEIS

Understand that Sunnyside and Ivy city facilities are same length but others with more knowledge can enlighten us as to dimensions & expansion possibilities.?

It may be that the -2s can add mid train equipment in the future once ( if ) servicing facilities are expanded

At one time Amtrak talked about buying 40 extra -1 cars to insert 2 additional into each existing -1 train set but that was cancelled and probably one reason was the servicing facilities' lengths. Along that same vein the thought that maybe some -1s could be broken up and added to present -1s now seems farfetched.

Correct, I believe the Acela 2 contract will include an option to buy 2 additional cars to length trainsets in the future at reasonable price. The Acela 1 contract did not have one and Bombardier would have had to restart that production line and could have charged a lot as it would have been a sole-source contract. That was another reasons why buying the 40 extra cars was canceled.

Also, the Acela 2 should be able to connect together as a double length set unlike the current Acelas.

 

[jis]

Correct, I believe the Acela 2 contract will include an option to buy 2 additional cars to length trainsets in the future at reasonable price. The Acela 1 contract did not have one and Bombardier would have had to restart that production line and could have charged a lot as it would have been a sole-source contract. That was another reasons why buying the 40 extra cars was canceled.

Any concrete evidence to support this belief? Or is it a wish?

No doubt it would be a good idea to build something like that in the contract, but do not expect a manufacturer to keep a line open just to deliver some cars ten years later. Any realistic inclusion of such terms will no doubt add to the overall cost of the contract possibly dramatically.

Remember, the original Acela I deal almost didn't happen because Amtrak could not come up with the money. It finally came together because in effect the Canadian taxpayers funds were used to put together a loan package to pay for it initially. This time around of course it is going to be American government loan. Whether lot of additional money will be available to gold plate the contract is doubtful. And if there is such money available it would probably be better spent on equipment that is needed today rather than on partially pre-paying for the possibility of adding what by then would be old technology cars to the fleet.

 

[mrpresident1776]

Correct, I believe the Acela 2 contract will include an option to buy 2 additional cars to length trainsets in the future at reasonable price. The Acela 1 contract did not have one and Bombardier would have had to restart that production line and could have charged a lot as it would have been a sole-source contract. That was another reasons why buying the 40 extra cars was canceled.

Any concrete evidence to support this belief? Or is it a wish?

No doubt it would be a good idea to build something like that in the contract, but do not expect a manufacturer to keep a line open just to deliver some cars ten years later. Any realistic inclusion of such terms will no doubt add to the overall cost of the contract possibly dramatically.

Remember, the original Acela I deal almost didn't happen because Amtrak could not come up with the money. It finally came together because in effect the Canadian taxpayers funds were used to put together a loan package to pay for it initially. This time around of course it is going to be American government loan. Whether lot of additional money will be available to gold plate the contract is doubtful. And if there is such money available it would probably be better spent on equipment that is needed today rather than on partially pre-paying for the possibility of adding what by then would be old technology cars to the fleet.

Yes, I don't have the latest RFP but the joint Amtrak/CA RFP lists 2 additional business cars for the 2025-2030 page 3. Essentially, they're asking for pricing information to be included if they at some point decide to go that route. It is not really an contract option in the traditional sense, just a request for pricing so that shouldn't add to the base contract price. The Acela 1 contract lacked that information. I don't imagine Amtrak's RFP that they put out after dropping California is much different.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/z4qe87gz9s7szmi/AACXe89iViLKCuNFioFdO524a/Schedule%2014-PRICING%20SCHEDULE%20AND%20PROPOSAL%20FORM%20RFP%20RELEASED%2001.24.14.pdf?dl=0

True about the production line, the Acela 1's are the only one of their type. The original idea for Acela II was to have something more off-the-shelf so ordering new cars or trainsets wouldn't be prohibitively expense. Granted, there will still be a bunch FRA-mandated garbage but hopefully, the end product will still resemble one of Alstom's AGV or New Pendolino trainsets. It is unlikely they'll stop building either.

 

[afigg]

Yes, I don't have the latest RFP but the joint Amtrak/CA RFP lists 2 additional business cars for the 2025-2030 page 3. Essentially, they're asking for pricing information to be included if they at some point decide to go that route. It is not really an contract option in the traditional sense, just a request for pricing so that shouldn't add to the base contract price. The Acela 1 contract lacked that information. I don't imagine Amtrak's RFP that they put out after dropping California is much different.

True about the production line, the Acela 1's are the only one of their type. The original idea for Acela II was to have something more off-the-shelf so ordering new cars or trainsets wouldn't be prohibitively expense. Granted, there will still be a bunch FRA-mandated garbage but hopefully, the end product will still resemble one of Alstom's AGV or New Pendolino trainsets. It is unlikely they'll stop building either.

While there may have been or be stuff in the RFP about an interest in possible future extensions of trainsets, if they have selected a version of the Alstom Pendalino, that may not be an option that was retained.

The original joint RFP specification or interest in having the capability to connect two trainsets together was clearly for the CA HSR system. It would little utility for the NEC, especially with the platform length limits. The combined trainsets would be useful to the planned built-out CA HSR system with lines splitting off to San Francisco, Sacramento, LA-> Anaheim, San Diego. If the Las Vegas HSR line is built, that provides another destination for a split train to go to. A combined train could depart SF, then split at Palmdale with one trainset headed to LA and Anaheim, the other to Las Vegas. From LA, the destinations could be SF and Sacramento. For a single line NEC with only one electrified branch to Harrisburg (which isn't going to get Acela service), double length combined trainsets don't provide any real utility.

Winter turned into Spring. Spring is now turning into Summer. Still no announcement on the loan and contract award....

 

[jis]

The Brits did actually add additional cars to some of their Pendolinos later, but pretty much within five years or so of their introduction. That was probably handled within realm of options. As long as it is done relatively soon after delivery it is easier. But ten to fifteen years later becomes dicey. I bet getting new car subunits for original TGV Reseau sets would cost a pretty penny, or even trying to get cars for the original Eurostars. Fortunately both those outfits have simply chosen to go for significant number of current generation rolling stock instead of fiddling around with 15 year old technology (other than refurbishing them), Amtrak should follow their example rather than plan on fiddling around with old technology fifteen years from now when half the life of the original acquisition is gone.

 

[DSS&A]

Hi,

I found this interesting article dated May 25th on the Railway Gazette website about the new Alstom HSR passenger train equipment which had references to this Amtrak procurement. With this article, at least we know what the company was basically proposing.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/acela-influences-alstoms-hs2-concept-train.html

 

[Acela150]

Where in that article does it state they are going to build a multi-level Acela II? It just mentions the attempt at the procurement.

 

[jis]

From that article one gets the impression that Alstom's offer to Amtrak appears to be derived from the British Pendolinos. This in my opinion would be a fine things since I do like the Pendolinos quite a bit.

 

[Andrew]

From that article one gets the impression that Alstom's offer to Amtrak appears to be derived from the British Pendolinos. This in my opinion would be a fine things since I do like the Pendolinos quite a bit.

Are the Pendolinos quiet to ride in? I was originally under the impression that the AGV would be the coaches for the new Acela trains.

 

[Acela150]

Sorry. Never been to Europe to experience their HSR. What are these HST's that the Brits have?