Acela II RFP information announcement

[jis]

12 K HP would be just under 9000kw, what you are saying makes sense. don't know what the heck I was looking at

I find the published 7Mw number for the Avelia Liberty a bit odd, since after the Sud-Est sets, the minimum power for all TGVs has been at least 8.8Mw. It might have something to do with what is possible at 25Hz and 12.5kV within weight limits. Also gradients on the NEC are really tame compared to what one finds on LGVs. The most powerful mainland TGV is the TGV 2N2 at 9.4Mw, and of course the TMST (Eurostar) at 12.2Mw, but that is a much more capacious and longer train.

One thing that people need to understand and internalize is that unlike the current Acelas which have 85' long cars, the Liberty sets will have shorter TGV-like cars. You can get a feeling for how short by considering that in the Liberty sets on an average there are 49 seats per car, while in the Acelas there are 61. This number is computed by simply dividing the number of seats by the number of revenue cars (389/8 for Liberty, 5 for Acela), thus not differentiating between first class and economy class seating. but it gives a good indicator, and it also shows why a single vestibule with doors per car is adequate. Putting in two vestibules per car would simply reduce capacity for no particular gain.

Incidentally 212m divided by 11 assuming power heads are the same length as cars is about 19.3m give or take. So each car is around 63' long, just as a rough estimate.

I wonder if they stay within the 17 tonnes axle load or overrun that a bit to allow for the extra weight of the tilt system. If they are close to that axle weight then It is probably a safe guess that each car is well under 40 tonnes.

 

[jis]

Acela power heads are 6000hp each for a total of 12,000hp.

If I had my Acela Manuel handy, which I don't... Buried in Mom's garage somewhere.. I could give you much better info on HP.. I think their's a little more then that. And I don't want to give bad info. But I remember it being in the 6,000 range per PC..

Actually it is 6,200HP (4.6Mw). They do not provide further details of any difference in power available between 25kV/60Hz input and 12.5kV/25Hz input, but I suspect that the amount of power available under the lower voltage would be a little less.

 

[mrpresident1776]

According to what Alstom shared with the media, the power cars are 18 meters or 59' long. A rough comparison from that power car length to the trainset on page gives me an estimate of 67.8' for the first passenger car and 52.5' for the second car if that visual is to scale. Visually comparing the Avelia Liberty to the AGV cars, it looks as though Avelia Liberty's are slightly different because of the number of windows, 6 for AGV and 7 for Avelia. But AGV cars are 56.76' long while standard TGV cars have 72.7' power cars, 71.7’ end cars and 61.4' intermediate cars. We won't know the exact specs for a while though...

I'm not quite sure where you got any power car length spec from what was in that link, but I did find some additional info in the following link:

https://www.partners.alstom.com/Assets/Information/?AssetID=67efd9c5-e84c-468f-a2b5-2469b6e86210

After going to the downloadable files tab and opening the "additional files" drop down menu, you will find the "Avelia Liberty - Amtrak - Case Study - July 2016" pdf file. Several of the specs listed:

- 212 meters (695.572 ft) for initial 9 car set + 2 power cars

- 381 seats + 8 ADA spaces for 9 car set

- Expandable to 518 passengers for 12 car set

- Traction power of 7000 kW (9380 hp)

Compared to the original Acela sets:

- 202 meters (665 ft)

- 304 seats

- 9200 kW traction power

So either it's me, or there's going to have to be some SERIOUS weight reduction to allow a trainset with LESS traction power to achieve a HIGHER top speed than the existing trainset. Afterall, overseas, almost all 200 meter trainsets capable of speeds of 300-350 km/h have at least 8000 to 8800 kW of traction power. I get the feeling that there's still a LOT of info that we're lacking.

Bottom of page 5, footnote 11, the power cars are "compact" about 10' shorter than Acela's. Interesting source, I certainly don't doubt it although 381 seats is only a 25.3% increase and I do recall Amtrak wanting trains no longer than 205 meters in order to fit into existing maintenance facilities. Perhaps some of the old specs were negotiated away but I really hope they are getting more seats than that.

Alstom had long planned a AGV with tilt, paragraph six.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/bidders-line-up-in-high-speed-race.html

 

[jis]

But this is no AGV. AGV is distributed power. This is concentrated power in the two power heads.

 

[Andrew]

Where are the specifications listed?

 

[Paulus]

According to what Alstom shared with the media, the power cars are 18 meters or 59' long. A rough comparison from that power car length to the trainset on page gives me an estimate of 67.8' for the first passenger car and 52.5' for the second car if that visual is to scale. Visually comparing the Avelia Liberty to the AGV cars, it looks as though Avelia Liberty's are slightly different because of the number of windows, 6 for AGV and 7 for Avelia. But AGV cars are [/size]

56.76' long while standard TGV cars have 72.7' power cars, 71.7’ end cars and 61.4' intermediate cars. We won't know the exact specs for a while though...

I'm not quite sure where you got any power car length spec from what was in that link, but I did find some additional info in the following link:https://www.partners.alstom.com/Assets/Information/?AssetID=67efd9c5-e84c-468f-a2b5-2469b6e86210

After going to the downloadable files tab and opening the "additional files" drop down menu, you will find the "Avelia Liberty - Amtrak - Case Study - July 2016" pdf file. Several of the specs listed:

I wonder how much work is required for that "Upgradeable to 220mph" capability.

 

[Fan Railer]

^ From a trainset perspective? Or ROW perspective? lol

 

[Andrew]

So the 212m train set length includes both the 9 coaches and two power cars, for a total of 11 units?

Thus, passengers will not be able to sit in the power cars?

 

[A Voice]

So the 212m train set length includes both the 9 coaches and two power cars, for a total of 11 units?

Thus, passengers will not be able to sit in the power cars?

No, passengers will not be permitted to sit in the power cars (locomotives)...

There won't be more than six or seven coaches per train set; There will also be one or two first-class cars and a food service car, for a total of nine cars.

 

[mrpresident1776]

But this is no AGV. AGV is distributed power. This is concentrated power in the two power heads.

You're right but these coaches look most similar AGV coaches, minus that distributed power, and with power cars on each end. They have similar curved roofs, shorter car lengths and Jacobs bogies and lack the boxy look of the TGV coaches. While the TGV coaches have been out of production for more than a decade, the last AGV was delivered in NTV in early 2013.

 

[Paulus]

^ From a trainset perspective? Or ROW perspective? lol

Trainset.

 

[jis]

^ From a trainset perspective? Or ROW perspective? lol

Trainset.

More power Which will probably mean going to the full size power heads to make room for the larger transformer to achieve the more power.

 

[Andrew]

So the 212m train set length includes both the 9 coaches and two power cars, for a total of 11 units?

Thus, passengers will not be able to sit in the power cars?

No, passengers will not be permitted to sit in the power cars (locomotives)...

There won't be more than six or seven coaches per train set; There will also be one or two first-class cars and a food service car, for a total of nine cars.

Thanks.

Wouldn't Amtrak be able to make more revenue by operating additional business class cars and one fewer first class car?

 

[west point]

Reduce First class ? Does not make sense as FC often sells out before business class.

 

[StriderGDM]

Does it sell out? Or fill up? I know a number of people (including myself) that never pay for FC, but only use points or upgrades.

 

[Hal]

Does it sell out? Or fill up? I know a number of people (including myself) that never pay for FC, but only use points or upgrades.

You are right. It fills up......many are there on upgrades.
Don't know what they are planning but I would be skeptical that there would be two first class cars. That would require 2 additional crew.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Fan Railer]

Based on the specs, there may indeed be two FC cars. Only having 1 FC car on the new trainsets likely means fewer FC seats.

 

[StriderGDM]

Does it sell out? Or fill up? I know a number of people (including myself) that never pay for FC, but only use points or upgrades.

You are right. It fills up......many are there on upgrades.
Don't know what they are planning but I would be skeptical that there would be two first class cars. That would require 2 additional crew.

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Not necessarily, given the way the cars are setup, they might treat 2 FC cars as a single articulated car.

Just speculation.

 

[leacrane]

another novice question...

2 power cars, one in front,1 in back.

how come? I've seen 2 in front. can both be running at the same time with 1 control?

 

[Fan Railer]

It makes more sense to have the power cars sandwich the train set. Otherwise, you'd need two different power car designs; one with a cab and one without. You'd also need a cab car on the other end. This would involve more unnecessary design work. Remember, the simpler something is, the better it runs and the easier it is to maintain.

 

[leacrane]

tx. It's not intuitive to me that you can do this without trouble if the two engines are out of sync.

 

[Ryan]

It's done all the time.

 

[Hal]

Does it sell out? Or fill up? I know a number of people (including myself) that never pay for FC, but only use points or upgrades.

You are right. It fills up......many are there on upgrades.
Don't know what they are planning but I would be skeptical that there would be two first class cars. That would require 2 additional crew.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Not necessarily, given the way the cars are setup, they might treat 2 FC cars as a single articulated car.Just speculation.

Could be. I guess the question really is how many first class seats.

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[Hal]

another novice question...

2 power cars, one in front,1 in back.

how come? I've seen 2 in front. can both be running at the same time with 1 control?

Yes, with a power car on each end they can be running at the same time.
There is a control cable running from one end of the consist to the other end.

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[StriderGDM]

I'll point out that Acela's been doing this in the US for 15 years, so it's not new to the US (and other countries have obviously been doing it too