Adirondack discussion

[railiner]

Does the cafe car remain open and serving after the train crosses the border. The arrival time is 8:16 PM, so should I make sure to eat something before Rouse's Point?

That’s a good question. Unlike the Maple Leaf, where it becomes a VIA Rail operation after entering Canada, Amtrak operates it (as they do on the Cascades), all the way to the end. So there’s no reason to shut down at the border, unless there is some licensing issue with Canada, or the Province. Maybe a tax issue or maybe on alcohol…not sure…

 

[zephyr17]

That’s a good question. Unlike the Maple Leaf, where it becomes a VIA Rail operation after entering Canada, Amtrak operates it (as they do on the Cascades), all the way to the end. So there’s no reason to shut down at the border, unless there is some licensing issue with Canada, or the Province. Maybe a tax issue or maybe on alcohol…not sure…

The Cascades is a wholly Amtrak service that VIA has nothing to do with, other than provide station services in Vancouver. The only joint Amtrak/VIA operation is the Maple Leaf, VIA 97-98/Amtrak 63-64.

The cafe service on the cross border services varies a lot, and I don't think you can project one onto another. On the Maple Leaf, the cafe service is provided by VIA with a VIA attendant and a VIA menu. The get on and off in Niagara Falls, ON and usually open/close around St. Catherines. On the Cascades, it is a wholly Amtrak operation. The cafe closes briefly northbound at Bellingham so the conductors can do one last ID check, and southbound at Blaine for CBP Customs inspection. They provide full service. One idiosyncrasy is there is an (apparently somewhat informal) deal with the BC Liquor board that as long as they're enroute, the train is kind of considered American and the Liquor agency ignores its presence. But, while the cafe is open during boarding at Vancouver, they do not sell any alchoholic beverages. As soon as the wheels start rolling, alcohol is for sale.

I ride the Cascades a lot and the Maple Leaf at least annually and am quite familiar with current practices on both. The last time I rode the Adirondack, though, was several years before COVID. I seem to have a dim memory that the cafe wasn't open southbound out of Montreal until after the US border, but I am really unsure and in any case it was a long time ago.

 

[John Santos]

If the Vermonter ever gets extended to Montreal (even if by Rouse's Point), the one thing that is almost certain is the rules and procedures would be different than the Adirondack, the Maple Leaf and the Cascades. It's Amtrak (and VIA and the US and Canadian governments), Jake.

 

[MARC Rider]

The Cascades is a wholly Amtrak service that VIA has nothing to do with, other than provide station services in Vancouver. The only joint Amtrak/VIA operation is the Maple Leaf, VIA 97-98/Amtrak 63-64.

The cafe service on the cross border services varies a lot, and I don't think you can project one onto another. On the Maple Leaf, the cafe service is provided by VIA with a VIA attendant and a VIA menu. The get on and off in Niagara Falls, ON and usually open/close around St. Catherines. On the Cascades, it is a wholly Amtrak operation. The cafe closes briefly northbound at Bellingham so the conductors can do one last ID check, and southbound at Blaine for CBP Customs inspection. They provide full service. One idiosyncrasy is there is an (apparently somewhat informal) deal with the BC Liquor board that as long as they're enroute, the train is kind of considered American and the Liquor agency ignores its presence. But, while the cafe is open during boarding at Vancouver, they do not sell any alchoholic beverages. As soon as the wheels start rolling, alcohol is for sale.

I ride the Cascades a lot and the Maple Leaf at least annually and am quite familiar with current practices on both. The last time I rode the Adirondack, though, was several years before COVID. I seem to have a dim memory that the cafe wasn't open southbound out of Montreal until after the US border, but I am really unsure and in any case it was a long time ago.

Hmm, might be pretty hungry when I get into Montreal. Might have to look for some smoked meat or poutine somewhere near the station.

 

[Amtrak25]

A print out of the pdf e-ticket is sufficient, which comes with your -email. As long as they have something offical to play with for their stamp pad and stickers.

The QuickTrack machine may give you a hard time and won't do it, saying a Passport is required.

Shoreline East tickets are done by an Amtrak agent in New London. They give you hard tickets on Amtrak ticket stock the old fashioned way. Don't tear off the receipt portion until the conductor punches it. Yes punches it, There is no QR or Bar code.

Get food at Legacy Penn Sation, such as a sandwich at Chick-pea, or whatever it is called and bring a good stainless thermos for your coffee. Cheaper than Amtrak's junk. From what I have read, most eateries in Moynihan are hispter-focused clip joints. Then go to Moynihan to pay a visit to the Gate Dragons while they impersonate CBSA.

 

[TomPittsfieldMA]

The cafe attendant on the Adirondack can tell you whether he/she will be open in Canada. But food selection can be limited toward the end of a run. I always have something with me on a trip like this.

 

[zephyr17]

Hmm, might be pretty hungry when I get into Montreal. Might have to look for some smoked meat or poutine somewhere near the station.

Don't take my word as gospel, it's been a long time and I am really not very sure.

Gare Central has a good food court, but not sure how late things are open.

If the Vermonter ever gets extended to Montreal (even if by Rouse's Point), the one thing that is almost certain is the rules and procedures would be different than the Adirondack, the Maple Leaf and the Cascades. It's Amtrak (and VIA and the US and Canadian governments), Jake.

Yes, both CBP and CBSA are strongly opposed to onboard inspections and will not support a new one. The much talked about Port of Entry/Preclearance facility at Gare Central will be a precondition of a Vermonter/Montrealer. Neither agency will support anything else. So that facility will have to get unstalled somehow for more Amtrak service to Montreal to become a serious proposal. If it ever does come to pass, the Adirondack would use it, too, and the St. Lambert stop eliminated.

It would be very similar to the current practice at Vancouver for the Cascades. Though it would almost certainly be full Preclearance including US Customs inspection instead of the current "Preclearance-Lite" CBP process at Vancouver that is only a US Immigration inspection. Customs is still done on US soil in Blaine, WA with a walk through by CBP. It's pretty quick and much, much faster than the interminable inspections at Rouses Point.

 

[Amtrak25]

Tim Horton's at Gare Central didn't survive Covid. Just as well. Some Canadian Reddit boards have said TH's have gone downhill very much so over the last few years.

Most Vermont advocates want more frequencies to Montreal obviously. Not just a Vermonter, but an extended Ethan Allen, and overnight Montrealer and know a Preclearance facility in Montreal is required for any of that.

They have not thought through the operational details. 4 trains cannot be accomodated on Track 23 within 3 hours of each other going whichever way while Customs dithers over each train load for a 90 minutes or two hours. There will be a bottleneck with Amtrak trains backed up to the Lachine Canal, possibly impacting VIA's Corridor. So It will not happen.

If they really want these trains, then lobby the Quebec government, Ottawa federal government, and Congess to legislate Customs on both sides right back onto the train, preferebably while moving and end this 9/11 nonsense. Let them kick and scream or they can self-transfer to the southern border. Failing that, be happy with an extended Vermonter and forget the rest.

That’s a good question. Unlike the Maple Leaf, where it becomes a VIA Rail operation after entering Canada, Amtrak operates it (as they do on the Cascades), all the way to the end. So there’s no reason to shut down at the border, unless there is some licensing issue with Canada, or the Province. Maybe a tax issue or maybe on alcohol…not sure…

They close the cafe before the border stop and open thereafter, in each direction.

Best to use the restroom before the border as some of them are paranoid schizophrenics and don't want anyone moving around. They also require use of the dinette car for "interviews" and purchasing of Visas. All too many New Zealanders and Australians don't realize there is a need for that when visting both the US and Canada. CBSA may even haul someone off to the trailer via the cafe car for a strip search.

 

[jis]

Don't take my word as gospel, it's been a long time and I am really not very sure.

Gare Central has a good food court, but not sure how late things are open.

Worst case fallback is the McDonalds which is open quite late well after everything else is shut down for the day. Having used it once or twice, I'd say that, leaving the food aside, it was not a very pleasant place late at night AFAIR.

They close the cafe before the border stop and open thereafter, in each direction.

Keep in mind no alcoholic beverages after crossing into Canada. They have to lock up the booze while in Canada due to Customs rules.

 

[Amtrak25]

Montreal is like Manhattan - you can't walk a block or two in any direction without finding something to eat. Whatever fast food is in Gare Centrale is not that important.

If EXO kills all commuter rail operations from Gare Centrale (St Hilaire and Mascouche), leaving only REM, expect more retail closures. Amtrak patron volume doesn't amount to much.

 

[Mailliw]

Everything was closed at Gare Centrale when I arrived, including McDonald's. Not that it's hard to find food in Montreal though.

 

[zephyr17]

Amtrak patron volume doesn't amount to much.

VIA Corridor services have a good bit of patronage there, though. It's the main intercity carrier there, not Amtrak's single train that operates inconsistently.

 

[jis]

That’s a good question. Unlike the Maple Leaf, where it becomes a VIA Rail operation after entering Canada, Amtrak operates it (as they do on the Cascades), all the way to the end. So there’s no reason to shut down at the border, unless there is some licensing issue with Canada, or the Province. Maybe a tax issue or maybe on alcohol…not sure…

It is a Customs regulation issue. Customs has to check whether any contraband is being carried via the food service car, which cannot be done while it is serving or at least that is how the argument goes. So no open food service while a train is undergoing border inspection appears to be the Customs folk's position. They also have to lock up all the alcohol to avoid paying customs duties on them or some such, so no alcohol service in Canada on that train.

Cascades differ from the Adirondack in that CYI is mostly done at Vancouver for Cascades where for the Adirondack it is done on board the train. In addition to the Customs stuff, they pretty much commandeer the entire Cafe Car for processing people with more complex Immigration issues, making it even harder to keep it open for food service.

Incidentally I just noticed that now Amtrak characterizes the VIA 97/98 Maple Leaf as an Amtrak Thruway Service! It says so on my e-Ticket to Toronto!

 

[zephyr17]

Incidentally I just noticed that now Amtrak characterizes the VIA 97/98 Maple Leaf as an Amtrak Thruway Service! It says so on my e-Ticket to Toronto!

Yep, Thruway 7097 and 7098. I guess anything Amtrak codeshares on gets listed as a Thruway.

Last year when I was booking the Maple Leaf, the AGR agent warned me that it would be a Thruway bus Toronto-Niagara Falls. I told him it was a VIA train, not a bus, he was dubious (I wasn't worried) and checked further. Then said yes, it was a train and that he had thought a "Thruway" was a bus by definition.

 

[jis]

Yep, Thruway 7097 and 7098. I guess anything Amtrak codeshares on gets listed as a Thruway.

Last year when I was booking the Maple Leaf, the AGR agent warned me that it would be a Thruway bus Toronto-Niagara Falls. I told him it was a VIA train, not a bus, he was dubious (I wasn't worried) and checked further. Then said yes, it was a train and that he had thought a "Thruway" was a bus by definition.

It spells it out clearly as a "Train" on my e-Ticket. A Thruway Train. I guess enough clueless agents caused enough confusion to cause them to fix it once and for all

 

[zephyr17]

It spells it out clearly as a "Train" on my e-Ticket. A Thruway Train. I guess enough clueless agents caused enough confusion to cause them to fix it once and for all

Non-existent placeholder "station" CBN (Canada Border Niagara) can throw them, too. One time I was told I had to change trains at CBN, then again at NFL. Different time and agent, though.

 

[jis]

Non-existent placeholder "station" CBN (Canada Border Niagara) can throw them, too. One time I was told I had to change trains at CBN, then again at NFL. Different time and agent, though.

It really should be Niagara Falls Ontario because that is where Amtrak hands the train over to VIA. But bureaucrats with there heads lost in dark places I am sure see it otherwise. Most unhelpfully the ticket says the Thruway trains departs from a place called "C"!

 

[Amtrak25]

Last year when I was booking the Maple Leaf, the AGR agent warned me that it would be a Thruway bus Toronto-Niagara Falls. I told him it was a VIA train, not a bus, he was dubious (I wasn't worried) and checked further. Then said yes, it was a train and that he had thought a "Thruway" was a bus by definition.

That's a natural human response. Maple Leaf parallels the New York State THRUWAY.

 

[zephyr17]

They also have to lock up all the alcohol to avoid paying customs duties on them or some such, so no alcohol service in Canada on that train.

Gotta love the inconsistencies of CBSA (and CBP). Locked up liquor on the Adirondack due to "customs" requirements. Full, Amtrak provided liquor service using American booze on the Cascades, opening immediately upon departure from Vancouver. That's about 90 minutes before entering the US.

On the Cascades, no useless special luggage tags, no CANADA stamps, no special "Canada" check in and liquor service on Canadian soil. Many of those CBSA/CBP/customs "requirements" in the east just don't apply to the Cascades. Thank God.

That is especially entertaining because the Cascades is far and away the most heavily patronized cross border service. Passenger loads on the Adirondack and Maple Leaf are small, approaching tiny, compared to the Cascades.

Whatever danger the luggage tags ward off apparently isn't perceived as a problem by CBSA and CBP on the West Coast. Or no one out here got the memo about their being "required".

 

[jis]

Actually the booze situation is not inconsistent, at least nothing of Amtrak's making. As far as C&I is concerned, when the Cascades depart Vancouver they are on the American side of the C&I processing barrier, so anything from the US is OK on that train. The same reason that there is no problem serving alcohol on international flights from the getgo. The Adirondack on the other hand is in Canadian Customs area North of Cantic, and hence no American stuff subject to customs duty can be served without paying the duty and jumping through major hoops or something like that.

The luggage tag stuff in the East has always been an excuse to employ a few more people in New York Penn Station and I am convinced that it serves absolutely no purpose other than that, if that.

 

[Amtrak25]

Rouses Pt US Customs procedures all differ widely between train and bus.

Southbound bus passengers (I was one in both 2023 and 2024 on Trailways) are told at the border specifically do NOT bring anything into the facility with you except Passport and required papers. But they do rummage thru carry on bags while you are inside. I left my knapsack on the floor in front of my seat, but was ON my seat returning.

US Customs wants to build an off-train facility near the Rouses Pt station next to their highway facility and they will want everyone off the train with their luggage and trudge along the sidewalk with no canopy into the proposed building. They plan to build this thing regardless of what is built in Gare Centrale, which I do not believe will ever happen, but that is another matter.

There are no forms to be filled out on buses. They are to be filled out on the trains each way.

It takes a lot to make a CBSA official smile or laugh, but if they got a look at NYPS check-in desk with the huge Maple Leaf flag with their sticker and stamp pad sets, they would laugh.

Bus drivers check your passport with your ticket when your get on board. If only Amtrak would simplify it to that, and announce before NYPS departure to double-check you have it or you will be put off, they could still put off anyone who forgot their passport at Yonkers or Harmon.

Southbound bus passengers get their pictures taken. On board train passengers do not. Of course, we are not near their computer terminals in the building.

Trailways bus driver told me CBSA still makes you get off with your luggage and carry-ons, nothing to do with security, but may randomly open bags if they don't like you for whatever reason, looking for an opportunity to collect a duty fee. That is hard to do when you are inside without them. It's all about money,

US Customs and CBSA detest trains, especiallly in the east.

 

[zephyr17]

Bus drivers check your passport with your ticket when your get on board. If only Amtrak would simplify it to that, and announce before NYPS departure to double-check you have it or you will be put off, they could still put off anyone who forgot their passport at Yonkers or Harmon.

That's what is done on the Cascades. At Seattle the conductors do preboarding check in but it is a combined ticket scan and ID check. When boarding at other stations someone checks ID at the door and then the conductor usually checks ID again when they walk the train scanning tickets. Recently the conductors started doing another ID check walk through on departure from Bellingham. It would make more sense before arrival at Bellingham, because passengers who got that far without ID could be put off at that station. If they caught someone without ID after Bellingham I don't know what they'd do. Meet a sheriff at a grade crossing? Stop at Blaine next to the Peach Arch Port of Entry and give them to CBP?