Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[jis]

A "Federal grant," eh? What's this about Brightline being totally funded by glorious private capital?

$100 million in an overall $3 billion to $4 billion project? And it is to improve overall performance. I would not bellyache over it.

There is a much larger state/federal funded project, possibly running up close to a billion even, if the tunnel option is chosen, which is what the boat owners prefer, coming up at Fort Lauderdale. But that is to a large extent to make rich boat owners happier.

Frankly at Stuart they should spend some extra money and build a higher structure parallel to the Rte. 1 Highway bridge with eased curve allowing higher speed, if they are going to build a new bridge. I have no idea what they actually plan to do at present

 

[user 1215]

A "Federal grant," eh? What's this about Brightline being totally funded by glorious private capital?

That bridge has more than just Brightline implications. It affects the community, the boaters, the railroad infrastructure (FEC's freight ops), etc. A Federal grant to upgrade a bridge is hardly asking them to pay for and operate the private railroad. And it's really not like it'll cover all the costs, afaik....

 

[cirdan]

I suspect when Virgin lost its last rail franchise in the UK the relationship became worth nothing for Brightline, and they exited at the first opportunity that presented itself.

Virgin's UK rail franchise was not exactly a credit to Virgin and probably damaged the brand more than it strengthened it, so I don't really see how that would have brought any magic gold dust to the project.

 

[jis]

Virgin's UK rail franchise was not exactly a credit to Virgin and probably damaged the brand more than it strengthened it, so I don't really see how that would have brought any magic gold dust to the project.

You’ll have to ask Patrick Goddard what they thought they were going to get out of it. But they did get out as soon as Virgin lost its rail franchise(s) in UK.

 

[joelkfla]

A "Federal grant," eh? What's this about Brightline being totally funded by glorious private capital?

Sounds like Brightline is content to live with the existing bridge, but the local governments are the ones who want it replaced.

The commissioner quoted said that too much federal money had been spent, and then went on to list money contributed by local entities for stations in their area, but not a thing about federal monies. I think she knows not the difference between local funds and federal funds.

 

[jis]

Indeed, there are a lot of ancillary projects springing up along the FECR as a result of the Brightline investment, and these are all pushed by local governments. The biggest one so far is the SFRTA North East Corridor initiative, funded by the local governments for starting suburban service by Tri-Rail on the FECR corridor upto Aventura for now, possibly to be extended to at least Fort Lauderdale after the bridge situation is resolved in Fort Lauderdale.

Similarly, in Orlando people are seriously talking about the SunRail East-West Corridor even before almost anything has been built at all, not to mention trying to get a route via SR528-I-4 which is estimated to cost a billion dollars more to build, instead of the route that Brightline prefers.

 

[neroden]

A "Federal grant," eh? What's this about Brightline being totally funded by glorious private capital?

Well, they decided they don't need the double track bridge for Brightline proper and are doing it more as a favor to marine (boating) interests. So really, it's the federal government subsidizing recreational boating, which has been going on for a long time...

 

[MARC Rider]

Well, they decided they don't need the double track bridge for Brightline proper and are doing it more as a favor to marine (boating) interests. So really, it's the federal government subsidizing recreational boating, which has been going on for a long time...

So the political culture in Florida had no problem with Federal subsidies of recreational boating, but passenger rail is only tolerated if it's done entirely with private capital?

 

[jis]

So the political culture in Florida had no problem with Federal subsidies of recreational boating, but passenger rail is only tolerated if it's done entirely with private capital?

Then again the same Florida culture funds Tri-Rail and SunRail including acquiring rail RoWs and taking on the burden of rebuilding and maintaining them, that have proved to be of use to Amtrak too. So I guess it is again a strawman season?

Incidentally, it is Brightline that has tried very hard to keep control of their project by staying clear of government entanglements wherever they could get away with it, and that is the source of the "no public money" propaganda more than anything that the admittedly brain dead governments at various levels in Florida could make stick.

As Brightline gets more established as a concept and accepted all around money from various places will trickle in. Notice what is happening with the North East Corridor project in Miami, and the developing conversation about the Orlando East-West Corridor. That is all government money to develop new corridor along Brightline trackage, that was instigated by the so called private money Brightline project.

 

[jis]

Brightline Unveils Brightline+

 

[Qapla]

South Florida Brightline Construction - October 2021

 

[Qapla]

Brightline Construction Michigan Ave 4 track 10 20 21

Updating the crossing to 4 tracks

 

[neroden]

Brightline Unveils Brightline+

Hope they get this working well; I am quite sure it would be extremely effective in the LA and Las Vegas market.

 

[daybeers]

Hope they get this working well; I am quite sure it would be extremely effective in the LA and Las Vegas market.

Not like there are already solutions for moving train loads of people efficiently that don't involve single-occupancy rideshare vehicles...

 

[neroden]

Not like there are already solutions for moving train loads of people efficiently that don't involve single-occupancy rideshare vehicles...

In Las Vegas, *most* of the attractions are in a line, but then there's an ugly mess of sprawl on every side, containing most of the housing. Having taxis to the station seems wise, and having the railroad company operate the taxis makes sense.

Miami is far more of a sprawl-mess. :-(

 

[daybeers]

In Las Vegas, *most* of the attractions are in a line, but then there's an ugly mess of sprawl on every side, containing most of the housing. Having taxis to the station seems wise, and having the railroad company operate the taxis makes sense.

Miami is far more of a sprawl-mess. :-(

Downtown Miami isn't too sprawly, I don't see why you need ride share vehicles to get to your destination if it's downtown.

 

[jis]

Rideshare vehicles are for increasing the catchment area. They can be justified almost irrespective of the state of public transit in almost all connurberations

 

[west point]

How are the almost daily to weekly changes in dispatcher displays and openings of new CPs and track segments.? Are the dispatcher displays set up for the final track design with the sections not in service blocked off ?

 

[cirdan]

In Las Vegas, *most* of the attractions are in a line, but then there's an ugly mess of sprawl on every side, containing most of the housing. Having taxis to the station seems wise, and having the railroad company operate the taxis makes sense.

I'm not really convinced that the railroad has to operate the taxis. This is just one more thing that absorbs management attention and one more startup investment and potential liability that the company will have on its books.

In most areas where there is a need for taxis, local taxi businesses and / or Uber rise up and meet that demand without the railroad having to organize it or worry about it unduly.

Which is not to say the railroad shouldn't work with those service providers and, for example, provide / integrate a booking portal of some sort.

 

[user 1215]

I'm not really convinced that the railroad has to operate the taxis. This is just one more thing that absorbs management attention and one more startup investment and potential liability that the company will have on its books.

In most areas where there is a need for taxis, local taxi businesses and / or Uber rise up and meet that demand without the railroad having to organize it or worry about it unduly.

Which is not to say the railroad shouldn't work with those service providers and, for example, provide / integrate a booking portal of some sort.

They don't have to. It's offered as a service upgrade for cost. I'm sure they are betting on the upgrade revenue to exceed costs. It's a business decision. The last mile has always been an issue, everywhere. Offering to integrate it is genius.

 

[jis]

How are the almost daily to weekly changes in dispatcher displays and openings of new CPs and track segments.? Are the dispatcher displays set up for the final track design with the sections not in service blocked off ?

Dispatcher displays are on large computer driven displays. The hard wired displays of yore are well, left in the yore. Displays can be changed to conform with the most current reality quite easily now.

Some of the more recent dispatch centers seem to de-emphasize huge wall displays and trend towards large desktop displays allowing individuals to focus on their area of concern while being able to get a more global view when needed. Where there are huge wall displays, the new ones are on huge flat panels, and are in some sense "soft", rather than the old hard wired and sculpted ones.

 

[neroden]

Rideshare vehicles are for increasing the catchment area. They can be justified almost irrespective of the state of public transit in almost all connurberations

I do think it's funny that "taxis" have been renamed "rideshare" in public discourse

 

[neroden]

Dispatcher displays are on large computer driven displays. The hard wired displays of yore are well, left in the yore. Displays can be changed to conform with the most current reality quite easily now.

Some of the more recent dispatch centers seem to de-emphasize huge wall displays and trend towards large desktop displays allowing individuals to focus on their area of concern while being able to get a more global view when needed. Where there are huge wall displays, the new ones are on huge flat panels, and are in some sense "soft", rather than the old hard wired and sculpted ones.

Pretty-big wall displays are still used fairly often, so that there can be a global view, but because everything is in software, you can have the big picture up on the wall, while simultaneously each dispatcher has their local area up on their personal large desktop screen. Or several personal large desktop screens.

The redundant information is good. It means that every dispatcher can see the state of the entire system, while also focusing in on control of the section they're actually dispatching.

It was pretty cool to have a tour of a modern dispatching center. The software replicates more-or-less what you would have seen on a hardwired board, but it's all software, so it is really quite straightforward to change it as needed to correspond with the physical changes in the track and signals.

From a quick google search, here's an example of what one of the actual dispatcher screens looks like.
https://railroadforums.com/forum/index.php?media/not-train-dispatcher-3.2950/
Don't get me wrong; rewiring the actual safety-critical track circuits, making sure the insulated block joints are in the right places, building the signal cabins and setting up fiber-optic connections to the dispatching center, etc. is still a huge amount of work, but the dispatchers-office end of things is trivial to change now.

 

[west point]

talk of software changes always makes one cringe. A missed colon or a simple typo might not show up for 6 months. Something occurring 100 miles away might cause a hiccup.

 

[neroden]

They do have a whole testing protocol every time they change something. It's not instant, it's old-style deployment & testing (which seems to have stopped in most of the software industry back in the mid-1990s).