Crescent operations and schedule performance

[jimdex]

The whole problem is getting across Alabama. There is no going back to the traditional schedule unless it is truncated to Atlanta.

Yes, if you went back to the traditional schedule, the train would still probably be late, but it would be late at a more manageable time in Atlanta. For instance, a three-hour-late Crescent would come into Atlanta at 11 pm instead of 2 am. Not ideal, of course, but if you start cutting schedules to avoid late trains, you start down a very slippery slope. Freight railroads that really don't want to host Amtrak trains (and most don't) would quickly realize that they could get rid of their Amtrak responsibilities by running trains late.

 

[Amtrak25]

The Crescent when due at 730pm was coming in at 11pm. Amtrak rolled over and accepted NS's new [fake] schedule. Yes, we are on a slippery slope with NS behaving like the CN with VIA's Canadian. But there is no going back to the original schedule which NS won't approve of since Amtrak caved in the first place. I don't think Am-management is terribly interested in their responsibilities of running LD trains either.

 

[JWM]

This charade began in 1971 when strict and cumulative financial penalties for late trains were not included in the railroads' contracts. Until Amtrak trains are given priority over freight then the present sad state of affairs will continue.

 

[jis]

The Crescent when due at 730pm was coming in at 11pm. Amtrak rolled over and accepted NS's new [fake] schedule. Yes, we are on a slippery slope with NS behaving like the CN with VIA's Canadian. But there is no going back to the original schedule which NS won't approve of since Amtrak caved in the first place. I don't think Am-management is terribly interested in their responsibilities of running LD trains either.

Actually it is STB that arbitrated the new schedule. The same STB on which depend on somehow getting the Gulf Coast service up and running.

 

[jimdex]

My understanding is that STB ordered Amtrak to negotiate schedules with all of its host railroads as a prelude to new metrics designed to enforce on-time requirements. But in response to my question at a recent RPA video forum, an Amtrak official said the old schedules can be put back in place with 90 days notice by either party.

 

[jis]

My understanding is that STB ordered Amtrak to negotiate schedules with all of its host railroads as a prelude to new metrics designed to enforce on-time requirements. But in response to my question at a recent RPA video forum, an Amtrak official said the old schedules can be put back in place with 90 days notice by either party.

But the problem is that a schedule is no good either way if trains never run by them. If the new schedule is being flouted why would the old schedule not be flouted even more, and trains continue to run at whatever NS chooses to run it on?

The purpose of the change was to use the new schedule as the base for computing the metrics to enforce. What is the likelihood that NS would agree to use the old schedule as the basis for the metric to enforce?

This whole business about reverting to the old schedule with 90 day notice IMHO is just a mechanism for blessing some rearrangement of deck chairs on the you know what.

 

[Amtrak25]

So we are back to what can be done about it other than accumulating metrics for the STB ?

One issue is an NS/CSX crossing somewhere in Alabama where CSX has precedence since it was built first and both railroads are now dysfunctional.

 

[zephyr17]

But the problem is that a schedule is no good either way if trains never run by them. If the new schedule is being flouted why would the old schedule not be flouted even more, and trains continue to run at whatever NS chooses to run it on?

The purpose of the change was to use the new schedule as the base for computing the metrics to enforce. What is the likelihood that NS would agree to use the old schedule as the basis for the metric to enforce?

This whole business about reverting to the old schedule with 90 day notice IMHO is just a mechanism for blessing some rearrangement of deck chairs on the you know what.

The official passenger delay statistics against the STB metrics are now being published. That is pretty recent, we are now finally in a position where action can be taken under the rules implementing PRIIA's passenger delay legislation. It has taken a long time to get here, 12 years of litigation, plus time to restring the schedules against which the metrics can be used and let all the waiting/trial periods for the schedules to run, as set forth in the final rule. The stage is finally set. Now the question becomes whether Amtrak files a complaint with the STB, as thet are now entitled to when the official passenger delay metrics fall below 80%. But they just recently arrived in a position that was possible. Let's give them a few months to see if they make use of it.

 

[zephyr17]

So we are back to what can be done about it other than accumulating metrics for the STB ?

One issue is an NS/CSX crossing somewhere in Alabama where CSX has precedence since it was built first and both railroads are now dysfunctional.

Amtrak can file a complaint to the STB requesting STB order relief when passenger on time per the published metrics is less than 80%. That capability is the real change and is new.

 

[jimdex]

But the problem is that a schedule is no good either way if trains never run by them. If the new schedule is being flouted why would the old schedule not be flouted even more, and trains continue to run at whatever NS chooses to run .

If, as you suggest, Norfolk Southern is deliberately flouting the schedule, then it could also flout the schedule between Atlanta and New York.

 

[Amtrak25]

If, as you suggest, Norfolk Southern is deliberately flouting the schedule, then it could also flout the schedule between Atlanta and New York.

Actually 7 miles south of Alexandria to Atlanta. There are no darlings there either, but there are different congestion issues in Alabama they are too inept to manage.

 

[jis]

If, as you suggest, Norfolk Southern is deliberately flouting the schedule, then it could also flout the schedule between Atlanta and New York.

Which it is doing in equal measure and has been for a while. But as pointed out Alabama has its own issues including the involvement of a bit of quality CSX dispatching in between for a very short distance.

As zephyr17 says, the mechanism is now in place to attempt to enforce the schedule that NS has agreed to. It would be a foolish act IMHO to unilaterally try to change the schedule to something that they can then claim they never agreed to. It would be reasonable to take such steps after it has been established that they are unwilling or unable to abide by the agreed upon schedule.

 

[joelkfla]

The purpose of the change was to use the new schedule as the base for computing the metrics to enforce. What is the likelihood that NS would agree to use the old schedule as the basis for the metric to enforce?

Do they have a choice, if the original schedule was previously agreed to, and the new agreement includes the option to revert to it?

 

[jis]

Do they have a choice, if the original schedule was previously agreed to, and the new agreement includes the option to revert to it?

Actually the reversion clause is effective only after they have tried the new schedule. Otherwise why would Amtrak even bother with the new schedule, if it really wished to have the old schedule. They'd exercise the 90 day notice the day after the agreement was reached, which would be an absurd agreement to start with, considering that you can;t even get two quarters of metrics in 90 days.

 

[acelafan]

I don't know if this was mentioned earlier in this thread, I apologize if it was, but RPA hosted a webinar a couple of weeks ago and Jim Matthews relayed a question from the audience about the disaster timekeeping for the Crescent. The Amtrak rep Yoel Weiss said the current schedule can be reverted to the previous version by either party with a 30-day notice, but that neither side has indicated a willingness to do so. I'm not sure why. I guess Amtrak figures the current schedule is somehow better?

Most of us think it was better to have the northbound train (20) leave NOL with a small hope of reaching Atlanta well before midnight.

I do hope the STB can help. The new OTP metrics and their enforcement should be separate from the Gulf Coast fiasco. Because RPA can't bring a suit to the STB for this problem, Mr Matthews asked RPA members to write in with their stories of missed events, missed connections for other travel, etc which will then be forwarded to the STB. He said they take those inputs seriously.

 

[acelafan]

I see comments about a 30-day notice vs 90-day notice for the old schedule. Probably moot since they don't seem interested in changing it.

 

[Amtrak25]

Amtrak could also put STB complaint forms as seat drops on the trains.

I don't think Amtrak much cares. They'd loved an excuse to cut them all back to 3 or 5 days week.

Now if Amtrak were not so lazy, they would produce timetables (yes, I know someone does them and they are on the RPA website), put the name of the host railroad on them, and have footnotes like they once did about the Penn Central about which are unable to keep their trains on schedule.

 

[jimdex]

I see comments about a 30-day notice vs 90-day notice for the old schedule. Probably moot since they don't seem interested in changing it.

My recollection is that they said 90 days during the RPA webinar, but I could be wrong. At any rate, I think it's premature to say neither side is interested in changing it back. I got the impression that they were still trying to see if they could make the new schedule work.

 

[jimdex]

Amtrak could also put STB complaint forms as seat drops on the trains.

I don't think Amtrak much cares. They'd loved an excuse to cut them all back to 3 or 5 days week.

Now if Amtrak were not so lazy, they would produce timetables (yes, I know someone does them and they are on the RPA website), put the name of the host railroad on them, and have footnotes like they once did about the Penn Central about which are unable to keep their trains on schedule.

I remember when Amtrak put the railroad names on the timetables. Over the past couple of years, Amtrak has tried a different approach to publicly shame the railroads, issuing quarterly "report cards" on each host railroad's performance. Norfolk Southern routinely got an F. This public shaming is one of the factors that resulted in the new STB on-time guidelines, so I don 't think it's completely fair to say Amtrak doesn't care about late trains.

 

[zephyr17]

As I've said before, the test in my mind is whether Amtrak files a complaint to the STB against NS under the STB's new passenger delay rules. I'll give them some time to do it before I assume they don't care.

 

[west point]

So we are back to what can be done about it other than accumulating metrics for the STB ?

One issue is an NS/CSX crossing somewhere in Alabama where CSX has precedence since it was built first and both railroads are now dysfunctional.

You may be thinking about the southbound Crescent has to cross over CSX to get to BHM station. Then back on to CSX before getting on NS south of the BHM station.

But actually the Crescent take more delays in at ATL's Howell CP. The NS line crosses the CSX ( original pre civil war line Western & Atlantic ) from downtown ATL thru Tilford yard on to Chattanooga. CSX often parks trains across that crossing for crew change or they might even have one in each direction doing a slow walk.

As far as Alabama. The Crescent has enogh schedule pad MEI - BHM of over 1-1/2 hours. Have seen Crescent make up 55 minutes from Tuscaloosa < BHM and 40 Minutes MEI <> TCL.

 

[tricia]

You may be thinking about the southbound Crescent has to cross over CSX to get to BHM station. Then back on to CSX before getting on NS south of the BHM station.

But actually the Crescent take more delays in at ATL's Howell CP. The NS line crosses the CSX ( original pre civil war line Western & Atlantic ) from downtown ATL thru Tilford yard on to Chattanooga. CSX often parks trains across that crossing for crew change or they might even have one in each direction doing a slow walk.

As far as Alabama. The Crescent has enogh schedule pad MEI - BHM of over 1-1/2 hours. Have seen Crescent make up 55 minutes from Tuscaloosa < BHM and 40 Minutes MEI <> TCL.

With that much schedule padding, shouldn't Amtrak have negotiated a better schedule than the one we're stuck with now?

 

[zephyr17]

With that much schedule padding, shouldn't Amtrak have negotiated a better schedule than the one we're stuck with now?

Well, the new schedule is one NS knew they were going to theoretically be subject to passenger delay penalties on per the STB rule, so NS had a lot of motivation to pad it. It is the worst of new schedules restrung after the rule was published.

 

[west point]

# 20 today Friday made up 57 minutes from Tuscaloosa to BHM. Only arrived BHM 10 minutes late.

#19 / 07 today made up 19 minutes Anniston - BHM.

 

[Cal]

It is the worst of new schedules restrung after the rule was published.

What other schedules were revised due to this reason?