CZ Train Truck Collision In Nevada (2011)

[The Journalist]

I meant to get today's paper. The front-page headline was something like "Fire, carnage at Amtrak train crash site." Says clearly under that that the truck hit the train.

 

[sunchaser]

This is really bad-

 

[RailFanLNK]

I just received a phone call from my church and the trip leader for the Singles Amtrak trip to GSC in July can't make the meeting tomorrow due to a medical emergency of his mother so the Director from our church knew that I would be very knowledgeable about Amtrak and Glenwood Springs. I looking forward to "subbing" but I know this accident is going to have all the folks going on the trip very nervous. Wish me luck, I'm trying to prepare for a 2 hour orientation of a trip I'm not going on in 2 hours! My thoughts and prayers go out to all of the families involved in this.

 

[oldtimer]

Thanks George for that comprehensive post.

I must agree a very concise analytical post. Thank You George!

The skid marks do not show much even if they were made by the truck. The length of the tractor and two trailers and the coupling between the trailers it may be possible that when the tractor made the initial impact the air brakes would set with the initial loss of pressure and the marks could have been produced by the last bogie of the last trailer.

As for the fire, I was in the cab of the United Aircraft Turbotrain on July 20th 1973 when we ran a red signal at 95 mph. I was beating on the engineer's shoulder as we approached the signal with no response until he finally made an emergency application after we passed the signal. We struck a freight train crossing over from our track to the adjoining track at an actual impact speed of 74-76 mph as observed by myself. The fuel tanks were topped off an Montreal approximately 10 miles east of the site in Lachine Quebec. The fuel tanks were also lined with a bladder were compressed by the end sill of the second or third car of the freight train we struck and sprayed fuel. The fire that ensued was also horrific, like the Zephyr fire. The train was on an acceptance run by the CN before its delivery to Amtrak. All aboard the train were railroad or United Aircraft employees, 11 of the 20 aboard were injured.

oldtimer2

 

[Amtrak George]

Latest AP report on fatalities says 6 (including truck driver). They are hoping passengers not fund got off train early, didn't get on the train that trip, or left the scene in other vehicles and haven't check in. The total would mean 4 passengers perished, the conductor and the gravel truck driver. :help:

 

[George Harris]

Latest AP report on fatalities says 6 (including truck driver). They are hoping passengers not fund got off train early, didn't get on the train that trip, or left the scene in other vehicles and haven't check in. The total would mean 4 passengers perished, the conductor and the gravel truck driver. :help:

I am afraid that will not be the case. Saw another report that the firemen could see burned bodies but could not get to them. It also said that around 45 people were missing. I would suspect that the death toll of those in the car hit by the truck cab would be near 100%. For those downstairs there would be no escape. For those upstairs, they likely were caught in a flash fire. Remember, they would be riding along all going smooth and normal when this struck, giving them zero time to do much of anything. The bodies are probably still in their seats.

 

[George B]

Two issues are probably preventing a true headcount of fatalities:

Only the conductor would have the best idea of who is on board at any moment. Even then, the conductor rarely has an exact, accurate count. I believe this is an issue that is always brought up by the NTSB in their accident reports. Not only did the conductor die in this situation, there is also a chance that her ticket pouch is lost, or damaged beyond usefulness. This is a guess, so I don’t know for sure.

This fire was hot enough, and burned long enough, that human remains might be impossible to identify and account for. It might not be a situation of just counting burned bodies. It is probably more of an issue of determining what is and is not human remains.

 

[train person]

Pretty horrible accident, not nice for those involved and those who have to sort out the mess.

Suppose by the law of averages that one day a grade crossing incident was going to turn out a lot worse than a few bent handrails and air hoses.

 

[Rider]

http://www.rgj.com/article/20110625/NEWS/110624030/Amtrak+train+crash++Death+toll+up+to+6++conductor+unofficially+identified+as+local+woman

 

[Anderson]

The families of the victims most assuredly have my sympathies.

Moving to the accident itself, I'm going to say that if for whatever reason the driver tried to beat the train, then while his family does have my sympathy, he does not. I'm sorry...if you seriously try and beat a train, you're asking to get hit, and as far as I am concerned, if this is the case, he is guilty of five counts of negligent homicide. Note that I'm not saying that he deserved to die, but that would be something akin to playing Russian Roulette while you're holding a grenade in a crowded room. I am marginally more sympathetic if he was simply distracted...well, in order to offer a judgment there, I would need to know what the signaling is on that road. If it is anything but a full, gated crossing with all the bells and whistles (and you get a surprising number of roads with "substandard" crossings on higher speed tracks even now, though it's far better than it once was), then UP deserves unholy hell for this.

And of course, another question comes to mind: What's the speed limit at that crossing and immediately before it?

 

[Everydaymatters]

Was the fire located in the sleepers? My family member who was a crew member on this train talked about people in the sleepers.

 

[Ryan]

The fire was in the Transition Sleeper and the coach car immediately behind it.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

The article at this link: http://www.wtop.com/?nid=209&sid=2436527 says six are dead and that

...28 people were unaccounted for, but that the figure was "spongy" because some passengers may have gotten off the train before the crash or walked away from the scene without checking with officials.

I don't like thinking this way, but I can't help but wonder if Fox's hate of Amtrak has influenced their death toll estimate upwards.

 

[Everydaymatters]

The fire was in the Transition Sleeper and the coach car immediately behind it.

Thanks, Ryan. He had just left the transition sleeper and was two cars back.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

This leaves us with two scenarios: One, that the truck driver say the train and tried to beat it. That would seem irrational, to say the least, as the time of observation that he would have had would tell him that the train was moving fast.

Adding that this was the lead truck in a multi-truck convoy (cue "Convoy" by C. W. McCall in background), this might have been the convoy mentality taken to a lethal extreme. You know. Nothing, but nothing, gets in the way of convoy, nothing, not even apparently an Amtrak passenger train. The lead truck had to enforce this convoy mentality, even when the trucks following him realized taking on a train was foolish, broke the convoy, and slowed to a safe stop on their own.

Too bad trucks aren't required to have "cockpit recorders". It would surely interesting to hear the convoy's CB chatter leading up to this.

 

[rrdude]

The article at this link: http://www.wtop.com/...209&sid=2436527 says six are dead and that

...28 people were unaccounted for, but that the figure was "spongy" because some passengers may have gotten off the train before the crash or walked away from the scene without checking with officials.

I don't like thinking this way, but I can't help but wonder if Fox's hate of Amtrak has influenced their death toll estimate upwards.

Exactly my first thought too, I hope that's not the case, even for Fox.
Just heard on NPR, prelim info from interview with NTSB, "........video data from train showed gates and signals were operational......." waiting for event recorder data.......... as of this moment, 6 confirmed fatalities.

 

[Ryan]

The fire was in the Transition Sleeper and the coach car immediately behind it.

Thanks, Ryan. He had just left the transition sleeper and was two cars back.

Wow, then he's a very lucky man.

 

[The Chief]

The article at this link: http://www.wtop.com/...209&sid=2436527 says six are dead and that

...28 people were unaccounted for, but that the figure was "spongy" because some passengers may have gotten off the train before the crash or walked away from the scene without checking with officials.

I don't like thinking this way, but I can't help but wonder if Fox's hate of Amtrak has influenced their death toll estimate upwards.

Exactly my first thought too, I hope that's not the case, even for Fox.

That link ^ is to an Associated Press story, not FOX News.

By SCOTT SONNER
Associated Press
AP writers Martin Griffith in Reno and Amanda Kwan in Phoenix contributed to this report.
AP is comprised of member newspapers and RTV stations.

AFIK the largest media company represented on site so far is LA Times.

The rest of the bigs have been getting stories/reports from local Nevada newspapers, radio, and TV, and some citizen videos.

Coverage looks fair and balanced.

The spongy quote is attributed to NTSB's Earl Weener, on site.

 

[Rider]

>>Adding that this was the lead truck in a multi-truck convoy (cue "Convoy" by C. W. McCall in background), this might have been the convoy mentality taken to a lethal extreme. You know. Nothing, but nothing, gets in the way of convoy, nothing, not even apparently an Amtrak passenger train. The lead truck had to enforce this convoy mentality, even when the trucks following him realized taking on a train was foolish, broke the convoy, and slowed to a safe stop on their own.

Too bad trucks aren't required to have "cockpit recorders". It would surely interesting to hear the convoy's CB chatter leading up to this.

Me<<

Far-fetched. Local gravel haulers in a convoy that is out to prove some kind of a point? Wow, great. Why not aliens inhabiting the body of the driver? About equally likely.

 

[Grandpa D]

That link ^ is to an Associated Press story, not FOX News.

By SCOTT SONNER
Associated Press
AP writers Martin Griffith in Reno and Amanda Kwan in Phoenix contributed to this report.
AP is comprised of member newspapers and RTV stations.

AFIK the largest media company represented on site so far is LA Times.

The rest of the bigs have been getting stories/reports from local Nevada newspapers, radio, and TV, and some citizen videos.

Coverage looks fair and balanced.

The spongy quote is attributed to NTSB's Earl Weener, on site.

I'm thankful for all the links posted here. My local newspaper, the Houston Chronicle, has had absolutely nothing on this story, neither in print nor online.

 

[MikefromCrete]

The delay in a fatality total probably results from the time it takes to search the burned cars, notify next of kin, checking passenger manifest against those who have survived, etc.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

The article at this link: http://www.wtop.com/...209&sid=2436527 says six are dead and that

...28 people were unaccounted for, but that the figure was "spongy" because some passengers may have gotten off the train before the crash or walked away from the scene without checking with officials.

I don't like thinking this way, but I can't help but wonder if Fox's hate of Amtrak has influenced their death toll estimate upwards.

Exactly my first thought too, I hope that's not the case, even for Fox.

That link ^ is to an Associated Press story, not FOX News.

By SCOTT SONNER
Associated Press
AP writers Martin Griffith in Reno and Amanda Kwan in Phoenix contributed to this report.
AP is comprised of member newspapers and RTV stations.

AFIK the largest media company represented on site so far is LA Times.

The rest of the bigs have been getting stories/reports from local Nevada newspapers, radio, and TV, and some citizen videos.

Coverage looks fair and balanced.

The spongy quote is attributed to NTSB's Earl Weener, on site.

Yes. I read the article before I posted the link to it.

I know I was not as clear as I could have been, as I said 'death toll' and not 'unaccounted for', so I'll point out the Fox article I was referring to. It is the link in post #128 of this thread.

The article is here: http://nation.foxnews.com/amtrak/2011/06/25/5-dead-amtrak-train-crash

The Fox article says 45 people remain unaccounted for, not 28 like the AP article.

And btw, you say that coverage looks 'fair and balanced.' Hmmm... where have I heard that expression before?

 

[Montanan]

Hopefully SOMEONE??? Will Issue an Official Announcement with True Details SOON, Speculation and Misinformation is Rampant ...

Especially here.

 

[PRR 60]

The latest tragic count is six fatalities and 28 missing. The missing number does not necessarily equate to fatalities due to likely discrepancies caused uninjured passengers who left without being recorded and ticketed passengers who may not have been on the train at the time. Regardless of the count, this is a chilling accident.

Unofficially among the dead was the conductor, as reported at Trainorders and by the United Transportation Union. A colleague of the deceased conductor posted a picture of her on Trainorders. That photo put a human face on this horrific event.

From the Reno Gazette-Journal, 6/25/11:

Workers in white protective suits have pulled the bodies of four passengers from charred train cars, bringing the number of people killed after a semi tractor-trailer slammed into an Amtrak train to six Saturday.
An Amtrak conductor was killed in the crash, as well as the truck driver, a man in his mid-40s who worked for John Davies Trucking of Battle Mountain. The United Transportation Union said on its website that conductor Laurette Lee, 68, of South Lake Tahoe was one of the victims.

The full story is HERE.

 

[AlanB]

Only the conductor would have the best idea of who is on board at any moment. Even then, the conductor rarely has an exact, accurate count. I believe this is an issue that is always brought up by the NTSB in their accident reports. Not only did the conductor die in this situation, there is also a chance that her ticket pouch is lost, or damaged beyond usefulness. This is a guess, so I don’t know for sure.

It is almost a certainty that part of the problem regarding actual passenger counts is due to the fact that Amtrak is working from the manifest of expected passengers in ARROW.

The conductors setup shop on the lower level of the Trans/Dorm, which undoubtedly is the reason that one of the fatalities is one of the two conductors. And the tickets would have been sitting on one of the tables in that lounge on the lower level of the Dorm. Based upon the photos it is clear that those tickets would have gone up in smoke. Therefore Amtrak currently has no way of knowing if indeed every passenger with a ticket actually boarded that train. They have to assume that everyone did actually board, but again there is always the slight chance that someone no-showed.

I suppose that the surviving conductor might well know that perhaps someone no-showed along the way, but the odds of that conductor actually remembering the name of said passenger probably aren't very good. Especially with the tragic circumstances weighing heavily on their mind. After all, that conductor could well have been sitting in that very same lounge on the lower level of the Dorm where most likely the other poor conductor was when she was lost.