EB mess

[Jim]

Guess i should mention, #7 out of Chicago

 

[montana mike]

Bummer. The Builders cannot catch any sort of break!!! I just can't wait for the wonderful combination of springtime flooding and increased construction activity coming up next month!!!

 

[greatcats]

Montana Mike. Thanks for keeping us informed with your frequent reports. Maybe there could be a few wildfires and a tornado to keep things interesting.

 

[montana mike]

LOL. If I didn't love train travel and especially the Empire Builder this would make a great story line for a sitcom, but sadly it's all too real. One footnote in all of this mess is the turmoil in both Amtrak and BNSF employee schedules. My BNSF contacts were all saying that it has been an utter and chaotic mess in this regard. The "human toll" is often unspoken and unseen, but very real.

With all of the snow we have had this winter in western MT I am hoping that wildfires won't play much of a role in train delays towards the latter part of the summer, but one never knows.

 

[TraneMan]

Wonder what happen to #8 between MSP and RDW. Lost a couple of hours there.

-Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.

 

[Guest]

We passed #8 between Milwaukee and Columbus. Looks to be a pretty good as far as recent standards go.

We're still holding onto 90 min delay. Turns out it was a sleeper. Zephyr had the diner to swap.

I'm just along for the ride. Whatever delay is fine, I've got my sleeper.

 

[jannie]

Speaking as someone who is doesn't ride the train that often, but feels a certain affection for train travel, it sickens me to see what has happened to an industry (passenger train travel). We passengers play second fiddle to frieght traffic -- sitting along the side while frieght traffic goes on its merry way. Through the years I have travelled long distance on the California Zepher, Southwest Chief, Capital Limited and Crescent. We once sat in the Denver Station waiting room 6 hours not knowing why we were not leaving to go east to Chicago so ok. Now here I am with tickets on the Empire Builder and have been finding out that I can expect sometimes huge delays.. I had a choice at the time of booking to use the California Zepher, but not only was it longer... I'm going from Chicago to Seattle and back. But it is more expensive.

I am beginning to wonder if it would have been worth the less hassle. of a. finding out that I may arrive 10 hours late into Seattle and potentally missing a connection of a different transportation. And coming back so very late into Chicago that I only have 2 hours before my next morning train. So who wants to pay $10 each way for the cab). to get there and try to sleep for 2 hours.

Had I known all of this I would have probably made different arrangements.

Passenger trains should not pay second fiddle it's an important mode of transportation. I wonder if those in charge (executives) ever ride a long distance train. If not it should be required!!

 

[Ryan]

Speaking as someone who is doesn't ride the train that often, but feels a certain affection for train travel, it sickens me to see what has happened to an industry (passenger train travel). We passengers play second fiddle to frieght traffic -- sitting along the side while frieght traffic goes on its merry way.

That's not what's happening here.

The entire line is a clusterflock of epic proportions, because the suits at Berkshire Hathaway were too dumb to listen to their people saying that they had to spend money on infrastructure (or because the suits at BNSF were so clueless they didn't realize the railway was falling apart).

Nothing's moving smoothly out there.

 

[Ispolkom]

The entire line is a clusterflock of epic proportions, because the suits at Berkshire Hathaway were too dumb to listen to their people saying that they had to spend money on infrastructure (or because the suits at BNSF were so clueless they didn't realize the railway was falling apart).
Nothing's moving smoothly out there.

Oh, this screwup is years in the making.

1) The Hi Line has always been the unloved sister of BNSF (which, of course stands for Brand New Santa Fe). While the Southern Transcon, the former Santa Fe line, has been constantly upgraded since the merger, the northern lines have been neglected. Remember when the Minot-Grand Forks line was to be abandoned? That's only 5 years ago.

2) The explosion in oil shipments has caught everyone by surprise. Sure, there was big talk, but I notice that only in the past few weeks has Enbridge actually gotten binding commitments to ship oil in their planned Sandpiper pipeline. At least two planned pipelines evaporated because the builders couldn't get commitments from shippers. If the Bakken field had been sure to be as big as it turned out to be, there would already be pipelines under construction. That brings up 3

3) Rail shipment of oil is volatile. Railroads can't compete with pipelines on price, so they have to compete on flexibility. The last time railroads shipped so much oil was in 1943, and that was because of **** U-Boats sinking tankers. After the Big Inch was built, oil shipments declined. Usually, as an oil field matures, pipelines will be built, and the rail business will decline as well.

4) That doesn't even include the possibilities of government regulation. The Cassleton derailment was lucky, because it wasn't *in* Cassleton. One Lac Megantic disaster in the US, and the business of shipping oil by rail will change very fast.

3 and 4 discouraged BNSF from investing in infrastructure. What's the point of building sidings and double tracking if the business is going to disappear in a few years? Better to flood the system and make your money, based on the real fact that most shippers on the Hi Line don't have any choice. They have to ship on the railroad. Then things go back to their former, slower pace. Something similar happens every year that there's a big grain harvest.

 

[montana mike]

The "slower" pace isn't going to happen soon. I don't know where people get this idea. I speak with energy people weekly here in MT and they continue to say this boom will continue for many decades. Both our MT senators, who publicly profess their support of the pipeline, have privately told me that the pipeline is effectively DITW, saying the administration has no intention of approving it. The amount of oil coming out of the ground grows monthly and the ONLY avenue most of the energy people have to move much of this stuff is via rail. Yes the shipment numbers can be somewhat volatile, but as one of my BNSF guys said just today, many pundits are also overlooking the significant increases in Intermodal, coal and general freight since the recession. I was in downtown Whitefish tonight, and we parked right next to the rail station and the entire yard was jammed with at least a dozen freights (WFH is a big BNSF yard and crew change point), with movement in both directions, mostly very slow, since just west of WFH it's single track thru the long 7 mile tunnel.

Note: Looking at the latest MT agricultural numbers from the state, almost all commodities were actually down in volume slightly this year except for wheat, which was only up 4%, hardly a number capable of causing major dislocations. And even that 4% number is skewed, because only the Spring wheat was actually up, the winter wheat, which is the big crop, was actually down slightly. So anyone saying there were BIG Ag volumes causing this glitch are just not reading the tea leaves correctly.

 

[montana mike]

Whoopee: #8 arrived in CHI just under 3 hours late tonight!!!! Making progress. For some reason the weekends help a bit on the transit times for the EB's.

 

[Jim]

We hit a peak delay of about 4 1/2 hours through ND before making up close to 2 hrs of it through Montana.

I don't know if this is exactly the norm, in the entire route from Chicago, we took the siding for 1 train. ...... and that was #8.

We took some delay running below top speed behind some freights, but i think BNSF put us above everything else and held the delay down to a reasonable time.

 

[montana mike]

Hopefully they are doing their best to make amends for the horrendous issues that got nationwide attention. The start of Spring construction and possible flooding (although much lower chance of any major issues this year according to NOAA) will tell the tale in 4-6 weeks.

I ask my BNSF contacts weekly if their estimate of 4+ hour delays are changing any and so far they say that estimate still looks good. Perhaps yesterday's train was an anomaly or a small sign of a modest improvement in the performance of the train. The avalanche danger is slowly winding down in the Rockies, the real cold weather has past and much of the 2013 grain harvest has been moved (either into silos or for transshipment). The only fly in the proverbial ointment is the increasing energy related shipments-both materials into the oil patch and oil moving out....time will tell.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

I was in downtown Whitefish tonight, and we parked right next to the rail station and the entire yard was jammed with at least a dozen freights (WFH is a big BNSF yard and crew change point), with movement in both directions, mostly very slow, since just west of WFH it's single track thru the long 7 mile tunnel.

I've never ridden the EB west of WFH - I know it's single track through Whitefish, but I didn't know there was a tunnel west of there. I keep hearing that BNSF needs to double track the Hi Line - do you think this means double track through Whitefish and an expansion of this tunnel would ever be a possibility?

 

[Green Eye]

I have a ticket to ride the Empire Builder in late April, Spokane to Chicago. I have to fly out of Chicago (being on time for a family wedding is mandatory, otherwise I'd take the Capitol Limited). Because of the delays I have arranged my flight for two days after I'm scheduled to arrive in Chicago. If the train is late, oh well, I'll have 38 hours to make my connection. If it's on time, I'll just explore Chicago. I'll probably go to the Museum of Science and Industry to see the Pioneer Zephyr exhibit.

But, thanks to this forum, I know not to make a close connection. Good work.

 

[yarrow]

I was in downtown Whitefish tonight, and we parked right next to the rail station and the entire yard was jammed with at least a dozen freights (WFH is a big BNSF yard and crew change point), with movement in both directions, mostly very slow, since just west of WFH it's single track thru the long 7 mile tunnel.

I've never ridden the EB west of WFH - I know it's single track through Whitefish, but I didn't know there was a tunnel west of there. I keep hearing that BNSF needs to double track the Hi Line - do you think this means double track through Whitefish and an expansion of this tunnel would ever be a possibility?

the tunnel west of wfh is the 7 mile long flathead tunnel 42 mi west of wfh

 

[montana mike]

Building a twin 7 mile tunnel is not likely in the cards at all. There are actually two long tunnels west of WFH. The one in MT and then one under Stevens Pass in WA

 

[George Harris]

Building a twin 7 mile tunnel is not likely in the cards at all. There are actually two long tunnels west of WFH. The one in MT and then one under Stevens Pass in WA

And these are the limiting factors in the hi-line capacity. However, construction of a long tunnel is so costly that it is unlikely without outside help.

 

[jim]

Mike, when you get a chance, pop into the Izaak Walton Inn and have their featured cocktail "Montana Mike."

Looks like #7 is about 3 hours late to pick us up tonight. Debating if I'll stay up for some fresh air in WFH or just hit the sack.

 

[CHamilton]

EB passengers will once again be bussed between Seattle and Everett through Tuesday night.

 

[montana mike]

Mike, when you get a chance, pop into the Izaak Walton Inn and have their featured cocktail "Montana Mike."

Looks like #7 is about 3 hours late to pick us up tonight. Debating if I'll stay up for some fresh air in WFH or just hit the sack.

Neat. We visit the IWI fairly often and I never noticed that!! Thanks for the heads up.

 

[andersone]

Green Eye

In was at the MSI this weekend and took the time for Pioneer Zephyr exhibit. Remember I love MSI, have been there more than 100 times but have to say the exhibit is pretty lame. The tour of the runnnig gear is cool, but mixed in wiht a very lousy tour script. Neat that they made the train rumbe in pretty realistic fashion,,, and if you now who Edward G Budd is the end of the presentation is more interesting. in the words of Dick Clark,,, give it 70 for the music and 45 for the lyrics.

BTW - the exhibit is actually "outside" of the regular collection (in the east hall) and you can actually see it without buying a ticket. They still get you $20 for parking though,,,,,

 

[neroden]

The "slower" pace isn't going to happen soon. I don't know where people get this idea. I speak with energy people weekly here in MT and they continue to say this boom will continue for many decades.

I think "many decades" is an overestimate: oilmen have been overestimating production of "unconventional" wells most of the time in recent decades, and the USGS doesn't think the Bakken is going to last 50 years.
That said, it's going to last at least 10 more years, which is certainly long enough to be worth putting in some track. And even when the oil boom busts, the route is carrying more and more containers from the Pacific Northwest to Chicago, and that's only going to increase.

as one of my BNSF guys said just today, many pundits are also overlooking the significant increases in Intermodal, coal and general freight since the recession.

Particularly intermodal. The trend there has been consistently up since intermodal was introduced, and there's no reason to expect that trend to reverse ever.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Why yes Intermodal is growing, however trucking is very flexible and service levels are demanding.

Winter kick butt, but spring is almost here. Late delivers are not smile upon. Receivers like Rite-In-Time delivers. Nothing like hit a dock and watch your product go from your truck directly into a store deliver truck with just a few minutes in the warehouse.

 

[yarrow]

and if you now who Edward G Budd is

it has been a few years since we have been there but i thought it was ralph budd the president of burlington not edward budd, whose company designed and made the train, that is riding with his family in the observation lounge. the two budds have always confused me