EB mess

[Green Eye]

Green Eye

In was at the MSI this weekend and took the time for Pioneer Zephyr exhibit. Remember I love MSI, have been there more than 100 times but have to say the exhibit is pretty lame. The tour of the runnnig gear is cool, but mixed in wiht a very lousy tour script. Neat that they made the train rumbe in pretty realistic fashion,,, and if you now who Edward G Budd is the end of the presentation is more interesting. in the words of Dick Clark,,, give it 70 for the music and 45 for the lyrics.

BTW - the exhibit is actually "outside" of the regular collection (in the east hall) and you can actually see it without buying a ticket. They still get you $20 for parking though,,,,,

Thanks for the info!

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Eh, if I was BH or BNSF I wouldn't be wasting my money expanding capacity for oil shipments out of those area either. It going to last until the rest of the world starts realizing just how environmentally devastating it is, and then it's going to stop dead. I'm surprised it hasn't done so yet, and I assume though they won't say it, that's what BNSF and BH are thinking too.

 

[andersone]

i stand corrected

Edward was the president of the Budd Company, Ralph was president of the Burlington

according to Wikipedia

"At one of the lowest points in the Great Depression, January 1, 1932 Ralph Budd left the Great Northern to become president of the Burlington. While leading the Burlington, he met Edward G. Budd (distant relation), who had formed the Budd Companyin 1912, and had recently begun to apply his automobile body construction knowledge to build railroad passenger equipment in a new venture using stainless steel.

The Budd Company built the Pioneer Zephyr for Burlington, and the train's "dawn-to-dusk" run from Denver, Colorado, toChicago, Illinois, on May 26, 1934, in an unprecedented thirteen hours and five minutes, helped usher in the railroadstreamliner era. Both Ralph and Edward Budd, among other notable men including H. L. Hamilton, president of the Winton Motor Company which built the motor for the train, were passengers aboard the record-setting run; the train's speed averaged 77.1 miles per hour (124.1 km/h), reaching a top speed of 112.5 miles per hour (181 km/h). The name of the new train came from The Canterbury Tales, which Ralph Budd had been reading. The story begins with pilgrims setting out on a journey, inspired by the budding springtime and by Zephyrus, the gentle and nurturing west wind. Ralph Budd thought that would be an excellent name for a sleek new traveling machine: "Zephyr."[1] In the summer of 1939 he persuaded the Denver and Rio Grande and the Western Pacific to join the Burlington in establishing a daily through train to the Pacific Coast; a decade later it was replaced by the fabled California Zephyr."

 

[montana mike]

The "slower" pace isn't going to happen soon. I don't know where people get this idea. I speak with energy people weekly here in MT and they continue to say this boom will continue for many decades.

I think "many decades" is an overestimate: oilmen have been overestimating production of "unconventional" wells most of the time in recent decades, and the USGS doesn't think the Bakken is going to last 50 years.
That said, it's going to last at least 10 more years, which is certainly long enough to be worth putting in some track. And even when the oil boom busts, the route is carrying more and more containers from the Pacific Northwest to Chicago, and that's only going to increase.

as one of my BNSF guys said just today, many pundits are also overlooking the significant increases in Intermodal, coal and general freight since the recession.

Particularly intermodal. The trend there has been consistently up since intermodal was introduced, and there's no reason to expect that trend to reverse ever.

Yes, remember the wonderful USGS stated, 7 years ago that there was less than a billion barrels of oil and equivalents in the Bakken, then raised their estimate to 23 Billion barrels just several years ago and now the USGS geologists here are saying over 400 Billion barrels of recoverable energy. They don't have a clue and they always are way short on their estimates. These are the same folks that said our energy production would peak in 1976 and continue to go down--oops..... It's all about current technology and an evolution of the ability to extract the energy. My friend, who has been in this biz for 30+ years stands firmly behind 50-70 years-and that estimate is based on using current technology and don't forget the Bakken extends into eastern MT, which is just at the very beginning stages of development. Private land is being bought up and leases issued for thousands of acres of land in this part of MT--watch closely what happens there over the next 3-5 years! I agree that even at 10+ years BNSF needs to do major upgrades. My nephew works for CSX and he too said Intermodal is a big part of rail growth and will only accelerate. Increasing numbers of long haul TL biz now moves by rail and if our economy ever gets going on 8 cylinders again BNSF and others will have their hands full trying to find sufficient Intermodal cars!!

 

[montana mike]

My BNSF guy just sent me a note today pointing out: "things are settling into a pattern of 4-6 hour delays going east bound and 2-3 hour delays on the westbound Empire Builders, which should continue thru most of 2014, with just slightly better performance over there weekends due to freight scheduling."

Looking back over the past several days arrival times in both SEA and CHI, his estimates appear to be right on the money. While I hate getting into CHI at 8 or 9 PM at night instead of 4 PM, i guess if the EB;s can consistently keep to this late, but "not the end of the world" schedule it's something that can be dealt with. Yes, this confirms why Amtrak has stripped the EBs of all connection possibilities other than the LSL (which even this will likely miss a few times), but hopefully the added consist will stay on this route to keep this train running 7 days a week.

 

[CHamilton]

More mudslides, more busing between Seattle and Everett, through Thursday morning this time.

 

[Tom Booth]

I was delayed early this month on the EB by about 14 hours getting into Chicago. The train ahead of us that left Seattle on March 1st got as far as Whitefish and got blocked by a derailment (33 freight cars and two locomotives). When they finally arrived by bus at Shelby, Montana, they were 36 hours late.

My train only made it to Spokane and we had to ride a bus along I-90 through a snowstorm all the way to Shelby. We were told that an avalanche had blocked the tracks at Marias Pass and BNSF has a rule that passenger trains have to wait 48 hours before resuming service.

Amtrak took care of everyone offering a hot supper meal for both coach and sleeper car passengers. The train pulled into Chicago at 4:00 in the morning, but the service center was opened and staffed so that passengers with connecting trains were supplied with hotel reservations, taxi rides and breakfast allowances along with re-scheduled tickets for the connection. I just can't say enough about Amtrak service!!!

I've already planned my next trip this September with Amtrak and I'll try to complete the part of the trip on EB that I missed.

 

[tim49424]

2-3 hour delays on the westbound Empire Builders, which should continue thru most of 2014, with just slightly better performance over there weekends due to freight scheduling."

I would be thrilled with that when I head on the Empire Builder in July, being the last two times I traveled to PDX I had a 9-hour delay (May, 2012) and a termination in SPK (June, 2013). My return trip both times wasn't much better, each 6 hours late. This time, I'll be starting starting in CHI (from KAL) and not riding the EB back due to the suspended connections.

 

[montana mike]

Today's EB's: #8 now almost 7 hours late south of MKE and #7 now almost 5 hours behind in WA. Bummer........

 

[neroden]

My BNSF guy just sent me a note today pointing out: "things are settling into a pattern of 4-6 hour delays going east bound and 2-3 hour delays on the westbound Empire Builders, which should continue thru most of 2014, with just slightly better performance over there weekends due to freight scheduling."

If they could get the eastbound delays down to 2-3 hours and keep the westbound delays down to 2-3 hours.... they'd be back to what Amtrak usually deals with on most of its "long-distance" trains.
And so they would probably see ridership and revenue start returning to "normal". I can't imagine what ridership would be like if they actually ran the trains on time.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

I was delayed early this month on the EB by about 14 hours getting into Chicago. The train ahead of us that left Seattle on March 1st got as far as Whitefish and got blocked by a derailment (33 freight cars and two locomotives). When they finally arrived by bus at Shelby, Montana, they were 36 hours late.

My train only made it to Spokane and we had to ride a bus along I-90 through a snowstorm all the way to Shelby. We were told that an avalanche had blocked the tracks at Marias Pass and BNSF has a rule that passenger trains have to wait 48 hours before resuming service.

Amtrak took care of everyone offering a hot supper meal for both coach and sleeper car passengers. The train pulled into Chicago at 4:00 in the morning, but the service center was opened and staffed so that passengers with connecting trains were supplied with hotel reservations, taxi rides and breakfast allowances along with re-scheduled tickets for the connection. I just can't say enough about Amtrak service!!!

I've already planned my next trip this September with Amtrak and I'll try to complete the part of the trip on EB that I missed.

I'm glad to hear your story. I've had similar experiences with Amtrak customer service as well. IMO, it's MUCH better than the airlines. I wish they could do something about the lateness, but if they can't, at least they can give customers the impression that they're doing everything they can to take care of them.

 

[karenH]

If I buy a ticket west bound on the EB with connecting bus service to Salem (SLM) and the train is 10 hours late, will they automatically arrange a bus connection even if its only 1-2 people? Or will we be stuck in PDX overnight?

 

[anir dendroica]

The last Amtrak bus from Portland to Salem leaves at 9:30 pm, and it is seldom sold out. If you get in less than 11 hours late, you should be OK. Later than that (very unlikely but possible I suppose) and you will be spending the night in Portland. I would be very surprised if they charter a special late-night connecting bus.

 

[montana mike]

I guess with an average arrival time into CHI, for example, of 524 minutes late over the past month they are getting a lot of practice. It's almost as if there is no schedule on this train, like third world country transportation , where the train eventually does make it to the destination most of the time, but no one has any real idea when, other than it does pass thru their station at some point during the day. Tough to plan any trip given those circumstances......

 

[fairviewroad]

The last Amtrak bus from Portland to Salem leaves at 9:30 pm, and it is seldom sold out. If you get in less than 11 hours late, you should be OK. Later than that (very unlikely but possible I suppose) and you will be spending the night in Portland. I would be very surprised if they charter a special late-night connecting bus.

Couple of things: You wouldn't just barely miss the 9:30 p.m. bus. They'd definitely hold it for a while if they knew an inbound EB with connecting passengers was due. Not sure how long they'd hold it, but let's say 30 minutes. So that gives you almost 12 hours of cushion from the EB's scheduled 10:10 a.m. arrival time in PDX.

Second, I don't think they'd charter an entire bus, but if there were a handful of passengers heading to SLM I'd guess they'd just hire a taxi. Probably cheaper than putting everyone up in a hotel, and it gets people to their destination faster. Not sure about EUG and ALY passengers, though. That'd start to be a pretty pricey cab ride.

 

[neroden]

I guess with an average arrival time into CHI, for example, of 524 minutes late over the past month they are getting a lot of practice. It's almost as if there is no schedule on this train, like third world country transportation

Well, a businesswoman I respect just said outright a year or two ago, "This is a third world country."
Let's see... we've got third-world health care, elections which international monitors refuse to monitor because it's too easy to electronically "stuff the ballot box" or "lose votes", a Presidential election actually stolen by the Supreme Court preventing the votes from being counted, torture committed by the government, people imprisoned without trial for political reasons; whistleblowers imprisoned; powerful corporate execs being caught dead to rights stealing land through document forgery, and being let go because they're "too big to fail", the "intelligence" services lying to the elected Congress and spying on them (as has recently been revealed by Feinstein), paramilitary police breaking in people's doors in the middle of the night because the police have the wrong address....

...this is like any third-world banana republic. It's all consistently third-world. Perhaps when people admit this we can start making things better; as long as people are in denial about the current situation, it's hard to improve it.

To get back to Amtrak, at least many people *recognize* that not being able to run the passenger trains on time is unacceptable in a developed country, and that's the first step. On some of these other issues, people still think the US is the best in the world, even though we're not, and that makes it hard even to get started fixing things.

 

[montana mike]

Sadly it's because so many of our citizens now count on a check from Big Brother.

When we can't even run our trains on time we know we are heading down the proverbial slippery slope. As I have said several times in the past the Empire Builders used to run so well you could almost set your watch by them, now sometimes you don't even know which day's train it is!!

I had an economics professor in graduate school who said "beware of the Law of Unintended Consequences". I think we are seeing them now..........

 

[Ispolkom]

Sadly it's because so many of our citizens now count on a check from Big Brother.

I can't imagine that the consistently late arrival of the Empire Builder has anything to do with anything other than BNSF, which isn't a state enterprise. It's all free enterprise's fault. Seriously, what are you talking about?

 

[montana mike]

I was not clear-mea culpa. The EB Mess is mainly the fault of BNSF to be sure. I was referring to neroden's statements about a Third World country--neither of our statements had anything to do directly with the current EB mess. The issue of trains not running on time isn't something that new, Amtrak has had it's struggles, but then so did the legacy railroads as well. Humans run them, so mistakes are made and equipment breaks down. We just didn't need additional "help" from BNSF in the form of too many trains, not enough track.

:-(

 

[yarrow]

http://edmondsbeacon.villagesoup.com/p/trout-without-the-toonerville-trolley/1144093

empire builder or toonerville trolley

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I have seen the devil and he is Ignorance.

 

[yarrow]

I have seen the devil and he is Ignorance.

are you speaking from an omnipotent point of view?

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I'm speaking passively because I feel like saying a lot to a lot of people directly and I don't feel like having it deleted.

 

[George Harris]

I have seen the devil and he is Ignorance.

are you speaking from an omnipotent point of view?

GML: I would disagree with you on this one. It is not ignorance, it is stupidity. Ignorance is curable. Stupidity is not. You can become highly educated and still be stupid. That is such things as normal results from an action. When you expect something other than the normal results, that is stupidity. The other I have heard, and it is also very true, Insanity is defined as expecting a different outcome from a repeat of the same action.

Quite frequently in many situations we have people that do not understand the problem proposing solutions, commonly completely unworkable solutions.

 

[Ryan]

Someone mark your calendars, I agree with George on something.