Empire Builder Summer Blues Started Early this year

[gmushial]

How do the trains in the South and Southwest deal with the heat--they have temps above that threshold a good part of the year?

The problem is not so much heat as the range of temperatures the track must experience. In the desert southwest that range might be 30-120 degrees, a range of 90 degrees. In Montana that range is -40 to 100 degrees, a range of 140 degrees.

Rails are laid in tension, but since extreme tension in cold weather causes pull-aparts, Montana rails must have less tension at, say, 70 degrees than Arizona rails. This in turn means Montana rails will experience much more compression at 90 degrees, making them vulnerable to heat kinks. To put the same amount of stress on Arizona rails the temperature would have to be 130 or so, which thankfully never happens.

Can't one compensate for this by using more shorter pieces of rail and more gaps at the end-connects. With quarter-mile rails I can see this clearly would be a problem and a disaster waiting to happen, but 100' or 200' and end gaps one would think one could compensate for such... or is the expansion over that temp range just too much?

 

[CHamilton]

I arrived in MSP at 8:45. Will be staying with friends until Monday morning, then on to CHI.

 

[Ryan]

Here's what last year's looked like:

The heavy line is a 10 day moving average that helps smooth the data out a little bit. The raw data is the fine line in the background.

I think that the general consensus is that last year was a particularly bad year. I have the data for other years laying around, I need to unpack it and check it out.

Being a data handling type, have to love the graph. But a question: did you have the hand collect the underlying data, or is there a way to automate that? I'd very much like to do the same for the CZ.

Very much thanks for posting the graph/data - hugely useful.

The data is pulled from John Bobinyec's website:

http://dixielandsoftware.net/Amtrak/status/StatusPages/index.html

They come in one text file per day - I wrote some Python scripts to turn the individual text files for each day into a CSV file for one train at one particular station that can then be opened in Excel to create graphs. I'm working towards doing the graphing in Python as well, it's still a work in progress.

 

[montana mike]

Looks like the eastbound EB may "only" be 90-100 minutes late into CHI today--best performance in quite a while. Sadly the westbound EB just leaving ND is now 4 hours late and heading into another slow part of the trip in eastern MT. Will be very close to having to turn this train around in SPK again--which would be the 4th time in a week--unreal!!!!

 

[AlanB]

Can't one compensate for this by using more shorter pieces of rail and more gaps at the end-connects. With quarter-mile rails I can see this clearly would be a problem and a disaster waiting to happen, but 100' or 200' and end gaps one would think one could compensate for such... or is the expansion over that temp range just too much?

Sure, one can do that. And in fact, that's how rails were originally laid in this country; shorter lengths that is. But that increases maintenance costs as hitting those joints wears down both the rails & the wheels much faster, even as it makes that old familiar clickity-clack sound.

 

[AlanB]

when the eb is turned in spokane how is it re-provisioned? since most meals are pre-made and presumably not locally available do they just truck or fly the provisions in from sea/pdx?

I believe that the food is trucked in from the SEA commissary, along with the checked luggage.

 

[JayPea]

when the eb is turned in spokane how is it re-provisioned? since most meals are pre-made and presumably not locally available do they just truck or fly the provisions in from sea/pdx?

I believe that the food is trucked in from the SEA commissary, along with the checked luggage.

Yarrow: it's Dick's hamburgers for everyone! :lol:

Thursday I morning I depart Spokane for Portland, then up to Seattle via the Cascades. My plan is to head to Powell's Used Bookstore and Jake's Famous Crawfish for lunch. Under normal circumstances I'd have worlds of plenty of time, but if the EB is way late (or worse yet, bustituted! :wacko: ) I won't have time to do that. If it's way late, in fact, I might just cancel the Spokane-Portland EB and Portland-Seattle reservations and just get a Spokane-Seattle reservation. I don't wan't to have to do so, but if I do, I'm guessing the earth's axial tilt proably won't change.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

Looks like the eastbound EB may "only" be 90-100 minutes late into CHI today--best performance in quite a while. Sadly the westbound EB just leaving ND is now 4 hours late and heading into another slow part of the trip in eastern MT. Will be very close to having to turn this train around in SPK again--which would be the 4th time in a week--unreal!!!!

I'm taking the EB later this week, and I've been trying to fill in a few of the "gaps" in arrival times from Amtrak & the Amtrak Delays site. As of now, there's no data for the westbound EB arriving at any stations in Montana on June 18th or June 20th. I assume these are times when the train was turned in Spokane, so the "service disruption" cancels out the data.

I'm assuming that if the EB was turned in Spokane, it still did make its stops at Whitefish, MT at some point. Does anyone know when the EB actually passed through that area, or how to find out?

I have family picking me up at WFH, and although I've warned them that the EB will probably be at least an hour or two past its scheduled 8:56 pm arrival time, I'd like to know how late it has actually been in order to give them a "worst case scenario."

 

[gmushial]

Looks like the eastbound EB may "only" be 90-100 minutes late into CHI today--best performance in quite a while. Sadly the westbound EB just leaving ND is now 4 hours late and heading into another slow part of the trip in eastern MT. Will be very close to having to turn this train around in SPK again--which would be the 4th time in a week--unreal!!!!

I'm taking the EB later this week, and I've been trying to fill in a few of the "gaps" in arrival times from Amtrak & the Amtrak Delays site. As of now, there's no data for the westbound EB arriving at any stations in Montana on June 18th or June 20th. I assume these are times when the train was turned in Spokane, so the "service disruption" cancels out the data.

I'm assuming that if the EB was turned in Spokane, it still did make its stops at Whitefish, MT at some point. Does anyone know when the EB actually passed through that area, or how to find out?

I have family picking me up at WFH, and although I've warned them that the EB will probably be at least an hour or two past its scheduled 8:56 pm arrival time, I'd like to know how late it has actually been in order to give them a "worst case scenario."

My approach has been to give them a cell phone call when I'm a couple stations before where I hope to be picked up and let them know how far ahead (if that were to ever happen :unsure: ) or behind schedule I am, and they can then adjust the pickup time from there. YMMV

 

[gmushial]

Can't one compensate for this by using more shorter pieces of rail and more gaps at the end-connects. With quarter-mile rails I can see this clearly would be a problem and a disaster waiting to happen, but 100' or 200' and end gaps one would think one could compensate for such... or is the expansion over that temp range just too much?

Sure, one can do that. And in fact, that's how rails were originally laid in this country; shorter lengths that is. But that increases maintenance costs as hitting those joints wears down both the rails & the wheels much faster, even as it makes that old familiar clickity-clack sound.

I suspect nowadays since passenger traffic makes up such a small percentage of what the rails carry, any optimization for being on schedule doesn't/wouldn't make any economic sense... freight I suspect doesn't care if it is a couple hours late and likewise if one can reduce rail/wheel wear that's what's of the greatest importance to the rail companies, ie, it's all dollars and cents. I wonder if there isn't some non-cost prohibitive way to have the best of both worlds, ie, run at full speed independent of temperatures, and likewise keep wear to a minimum?? Many thanks for your insights and reply - very much appreciated.

A related question: when a train has to run at 25mph vs 60mph, I suspect the gallons per mile decreases, but not proportionately, ie, over the same trip, the total fuel burned increases - correct? Any idea what those numbers actually look like? eg, any guesses as to what a CZ burns btwn DEN and CHI, ie, out on the flats (either total fuel, or gallons per mile)? Again, many thanks.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

My approach has been to give them a cell phone call when I'm a couple stations before where I hope to be picked up and let them know how far ahead (if that were to ever happen :unsure: ) or behind schedule I am, and they can then adjust the pickup time from there. YMMV

I was planning on attempting to call them, and I told them about the Amtrak app and the phone line for checking train status. However, the stops to the east of Whitefish are all in Glacier National Park & throughout the mountains, so I don't know how strong the cell phone coverage is.

 

[gmushial]

My approach has been to give them a cell phone call when I'm a couple stations before where I hope to be picked up and let them know how far ahead (if that were to ever happen :unsure: ) or behind schedule I am, and they can then adjust the pickup time from there. YMMV

I was planning on attempting to call them, and I told them about the Amtrak app and the phone line for checking train status. However, the stops to the east of Whitefish are all in Glacier National Park & throughout the mountains, so I don't know how strong the cell phone coverage is.

Use the WiFi connection on the train and Skype them? At least on the CZ there was WiFi connectivity 99.99% of the route (except in the tunnels). Just a thought.

 

[EricPT]

Anyone have information or informed speculation on when the delays will start to let up. I am on the EB in September and could stand to get in a little late but will be missing important, though not critical, dinner sessions if arrival is more than two hours late. Thanks much

 

[TraneMan]

My approach has been to give them a cell phone call when I'm a couple stations before where I hope to be picked up and let them know how far ahead (if that were to ever happen :unsure: ) or behind schedule I am, and they can then adjust the pickup time from there. YMMV

I was planning on attempting to call them, and I told them about the Amtrak app and the phone line for checking train status. However, the stops to the east of Whitefish are all in Glacier National Park & throughout the mountains, so I don't know how strong the cell phone coverage is.

Use the WiFi connection on the train and Skype them? At least on the CZ there was WiFi connectivity 99.99% of the route (except in the tunnels). Just a thought.

There been no WiFi connection along the EB route from our past trip last year and the year before.. I'd for sure try to call before you get near Glacier since cell service is almost non there on our AT&T service.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

Use the WiFi connection on the train and Skype them? At least on the CZ there was WiFi connectivity 99.99% of the route (except in the tunnels). Just a thought.

There been no WiFi connection along the EB route from our past trip last year and the year before.. I'd for sure try to call before you get near Glacier since cell service is almost non there on our AT&T service.

I did think that cell phone coverage would be spotty - most national parks have little (if any) service, and most of the stops east of Glacier are extremely small towns, and I can't count on cell coverage being decent there either. I would guess, based on coverage where I live, that you'd probably need to have a town population of 10,000 or so to get good coverage. Using that as a guide, my best guess is that I'll lose a signal somewhere after Havre, Montana - a good 6 hours east of Whitefish. A lot can happen in that amount of time, so it doesn't look like there's much I can do to keep my family in the loop.

I have been trying to impress upon them the magnitude of the potential delays, but not being rail travelers, I don't think they're getting how bad it might get. They're also used to picking people up from the airport, with plenty of indoor waiting spaces and hi-def screens to update you on arrival times.

 

[gmushial]

My approach has been to give them a cell phone call when I'm a couple stations before where I hope to be picked up and let them know how far ahead (if that were to ever happen :unsure: ) or behind schedule I am, and they can then adjust the pickup time from there. YMMV

I was planning on attempting to call them, and I told them about the Amtrak app and the phone line for checking train status. However, the stops to the east of Whitefish are all in Glacier National Park & throughout the mountains, so I don't know how strong the cell phone coverage is.

Use the WiFi connection on the train and Skype them? At least on the CZ there was WiFi connectivity 99.99% of the route (except in the tunnels). Just a thought.

There been no WiFi connection along the EB route from our past trip last year and the year before.. I'd for sure try to call before you get near Glacier since cell service is almost non there on our AT&T service.

My apologies. When I check the Amtrak website, no EB is not listed as having WiFi... but then again neither is the CZ ??? but I know it was there on the CZ in May - 'cause I used it - even though I had to borrow a tablet to do such [if I'd known it was going to be there I would have brought a laptop or tablet like half the other passengers].

 

[yarrow]

Anyone have information or informed speculation on when the delays will start to let up. I am on the EB in September and could stand to get in a little late but will be missing important, though not critical, dinner sessions if arrival is more than two hours late. Thanks much

don't know where you are headed but last year, for multiple reasons, the on time performance into chi of the eb didn't get back to normal until, iirc, late september or early october

 

[montana mike]

My approach has been to give them a cell phone call when I'm a couple stations before where I hope to be picked up and let them know how far ahead (if that were to ever happen :unsure: ) or behind schedule I am, and they can then adjust the pickup time from there. YMMV

I was planning on attempting to call them, and I told them about the Amtrak app and the phone line for checking train status. However, the stops to the east of Whitefish are all in Glacier National Park & throughout the mountains, so I don't know how strong the cell phone coverage is.

There is NO cell service at all moments after the EB leaves East Glacier until you get to West Glacier, about 90 minutes later.

 

[montana mike]

My approach has been to give them a cell phone call when I'm a couple stations before where I hope to be picked up and let them know how far ahead (if that were to ever happen :unsure: ) or behind schedule I am, and they can then adjust the pickup time from there. YMMV

I was planning on attempting to call them, and I told them about the Amtrak app and the phone line for checking train status. However, the stops to the east of Whitefish are all in Glacier National Park & throughout the mountains, so I don't know how strong the cell phone coverage is.

Use the WiFi connection on the train and Skype them? At least on the CZ there was WiFi connectivity 99.99% of the route (except in the tunnels). Just a thought.

There been no WiFi connection along the EB route from our past trip last year and the year before.. I'd for sure try to call before you get near Glacier since cell service is almost non there on our AT&T service.

My apologies. When I check the Amtrak website, no EB is not listed as having WiFi... but then again neither is the CZ ??? but I know it was there on the CZ in May - 'cause I used it - even though I had to borrow a tablet to do such [if I'd known it was going to be there I would have brought a laptop or tablet like half the other passengers].

I take the EB fairly often, last time about 4 weeks ago, and no Wi-Fi on the train. I do use my iPhone and tether it to my computer reasonably effectively, except for when the EWB goes thru the park and much of the eastern half of MT--which has lousy coverage to begin with.

 

[Linda T]

Anyone have information or informed speculation on when the delays will start to let up. I am on the EB in September and could stand to get in a little late but will be missing important, though not critical, dinner sessions if arrival is more than two hours late. Thanks much

don't know where you are headed but last year, for multiple reasons, the on time performance into chi of the eb didn't get back to normal until, iirc, late september or early october

I'm hoping it will be reasonably on time by mid September, as that's when I'll be taking the Eastbound EB. Part of the purpose of this trip is to take the EB, though if needs be I can switch and take the Zephyr back as it still has roomettes available. Right now I should have a good shot at making the Cardinal connection EB scheduled arrival 3:55 pm, Cardinal's scheduled departure 5:45 pm. The advantage of the Zephyr is that since I need to drop back down to SAC it adds an extra day of train travel, but it also adds an extra night in a hotel due to the 3 day a week trains on either end of my reservation. It's worth keeping an eye on, but not doing anything yet.

I hoped that I'd get delayed and get two nights in CHI like before, but as others have said, I could lose my roomette if there are no others available. It just bares watching for now.

 

[montana mike]

The main reasons for the delays are the track construction/maintenance, heavier traffic and finally heat. By September the heat should not be an issue, but BNSF's construction plans call for work well into October. Freight traffic is highly variable, but it is increasing on the Hi-Line. Today's EB was "only" 93 minutes late, which would have meant you would have just made the Cardinal connection, BUT that is the best arrival time in days, most of the delays have pushed the arrival times to 3-4 hours late. One can only hope that things are indeed better by September!! Think positive.

 

[Linda T]

The main reasons for the delays are the track construction/maintenance, heavier traffic and finally heat. By September the heat should not be an issue, but BNSF's construction plans call for work well into October. Freight traffic is highly variable, but it is increasing on the Hi-Line. Today's EB was "only" 93 minutes late, which would have meant you would have just made the Cardinal connection, BUT that is the best arrival time in days, most of the delays have pushed the arrival times to 3-4 hours late. One can only hope that things are indeed better by September!! Think positive.

Oh I am, but I know to keep an eye on things before the alternatives are filled up.

 

[George Harris]

Can't one compensate for this by using more shorter pieces of rail and more gaps at the end-connects. With quarter-mile rails I can see this clearly would be a problem and a disaster waiting to happen, but 100' or 200' and end gaps one would think one could compensate for such... or is the expansion over that temp range just too much?

Sure, one can do that. And in fact, that's how rails were originally laid in this country; shorter lengths that is. But that increases maintenance costs as hitting those joints wears down both the rails & the wheels much faster, even as it makes that old familiar clickity-clack sound.

I suspect nowadays since passenger traffic makes up such a small percentage of what the rails carry, any optimization for being on schedule doesn't/wouldn't make any economic sense... freight I suspect doesn't care if it is a couple hours late and likewise if one can reduce rail/wheel wear that's what's of the greatest importance to the rail companies, ie, it's all dollars and cents. I wonder if there isn't some non-cost prohibitive way to have the best of both worlds, ie, run at full speed independent of temperatures, and likewise keep wear to a minimum?? Many thanks for your insights and reply - very much appreciated.

A related question: when a train has to run at 25mph vs 60mph, I suspect the gallons per mile decreases, but not proportionately, ie, over the same trip, the total fuel burned increases - correct? Any idea what those numbers actually look like? eg, any guesses as to what a CZ burns btwn DEN and CHI, ie, out on the flats (either total fuel, or gallons per mile)? Again, many thanks.

First: The standard rail length pre welded rail was 39 feet. About the longest used anywhere with jointed rail was 60 feet. That is pushing the limit of practicality for jointed rail. If you want longer it needs to be restrained. Generally the thought is to lay it on the hot side so that it is in tension in cold weather. However, over time the zero stress temperature tends to creep downward. To stretch it to the point that it is always in tension is regarded as impractical. If not truly so, it sure is close. Good embedment of the ties and good shoulders of ballast are important to high temperature stability. It is there, but it only takes one weak spot to cause the problem. Placing the track on concrete will also help, but that is a really expensive solution to implement on an existing track.

Running at a lower maximum speed reduces fuel consumption for the trip.

 

[shelzp]

Looks like the eastbound EB may "only" be 90-100 minutes late into CHI today--best performance in quite a while. Sadly the westbound EB just leaving ND is now 4 hours late and heading into another slow part of the trip in eastern MT. Will be very close to having to turn this train around in SPK again--which would be the 4th time in a week--unreal!!!!

I'm taking the EB later this week, and I've been trying to fill in a few of the "gaps" in arrival times from Amtrak & the Amtrak Delays site. As of now, there's no data for the westbound EB arriving at any stations in Montana on June 18th or June 20th. I assume these are times when the train was turned in Spokane, so the "service disruption" cancels out the data.I'm assuming that if the EB was turned in Spokane, it still did make its stops at Whitefish, MT at some point. Does anyone know when the EB actually passed through that area, or how to find out?I have family picking me up at WFH, and although I've warned them that the EB will probably be at least an hour or two past its scheduled 8:56 pm arrival time, I'd like to know how late it has actually been in order to give them a "worst case scenario."

Give them the amtrak phone number and have them check with 'Julie' so they can see when the ETA is.

 

[Ryan]

My apologies. When I check the Amtrak website, no EB is not listed as having WiFi... but then again neither is the CZ ??? but I know it was there on the CZ in May - 'cause I used it - even though I had to borrow a tablet to do such (if I'd known it was going to be there I would have brought a laptop or tablet like half the other passengers).

The CZ doesn't have wifi either. What you saw and used was most likely someone's private wifi hotspot.

I have no idea why the forum software is moving my text inside the quote tags....