Greyhound seats and fleet questions

[metrolinecoach111]

Unfortunately, Greyhound timetables are a huge mess and clearly show a lack of attention to timing detail. Airline timetables are much more professionally-made. Poor timetabling on Greyhound's part causes further problems. They also still have that inaccurate route map on their website.

I have to disagree with you about the timetables. As someone who designed schedules, driver runs and equipment cycles, I can tell you that there are many, many other factors besides projected driving time that go into schedule design. The published schedules dictate way more than just arrival and departure times. They determine driver pay, equipment scheduling, maintenance scheduling, terminal scheduling and connections among other things. This is all in addition to keeping each schedule and the runs they break down into within hours of service. You tweak one piece and the others change significantly. A change of +/- 5 minutes in any particular trip can mean the difference between a run needing an additional driver, or a missed connection that has to get retimed as well, affecting another schedule and so on....

In its basic form, scheduling is the balance of all factors relating to operations. Yes, many of the schedules have issues - but it's a give and take.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Still, airline timetables are written better than bus timetables. They don't have excessive padding or excessive stops. What problems would it cause to simply get rid of a few rest stops and cut some padding? You're not going to jeopardize any connections if you simply run the bus faster, nor would it increase drivers hours. Yes, terminal scheduling could be affected, but that's it.

Airlines, unlike Greyhound, put aircraft into fixed rotations that result in higher fleet utilization. For example, last time #6389 had come from SLC but didn't go back to SLC the next day. Instead, D4505 #86308 ran to SLC. That was a clear example of poor fleet utilization. Another example is the middle-of-night refueling stops. Greyhound doesn't distinguish between the technical details of buses, resulting in wasted driving range.

Buses serve passengers, not the other way around.

 

[jebr]

Removing rest stops, especially on longer routes, seems like a really bad idea. If there's rest stops every hour or two, maybe, but at least on my trip the other week from Chicago to St. Paul there was only one true rest stop around breakfast time. I would not have liked it if that stop was removed. I've also taken a Megabus trip for 16 hours with only one rest stop. This annoyed me greatly, and while not the sole reason is one of the reasons that I haven't taken Megabus since (and will not be doing so for any real long-distance trips.)

Why should a passenger be expected to carry on food for a 16 or 24 hour trip, or even a shorter trip that fully covers a meal time? Even for shorter legs, a passenger who may have had time at the terminal to eat during a layover or pick up additional food (and expecting that to replenish their food supply on a long trip) may see that time removed if their arriving bus runs late and they need to quickly get to their connecting bus.

 

[metrolinecoach111]

Still, airline timetables are written better than bus timetables. They don't have excessive padding or excessive stops. What problems would it cause to simply get rid of a few rest stops and cut some padding? You're not going to jeopardize any connections if you simply run the bus faster, nor would it increase drivers hours. Yes, terminal scheduling could be affected, but that's it.

Airlines, unlike Greyhound, put aircraft into fixed rotations that result in higher fleet utilization. For example, last time #6389 had come from SLC but didn't go back to SLC the next day. Instead, D4505 #86308 ran to SLC. That was a clear example of poor fleet utilization. Another example is the middle-of-night refueling stops. Greyhound doesn't distinguish between the technical details of buses, resulting in wasted driving range.

Buses serve passengers, not the other way around.

Actually, airline timetables DO have a decent amount of padding, depending on the airline. All airlines include the time needed to taxi around the airport. Look at any airlines schedules from LGA, JFK, EWR, ORD, LAX, ATL, SFO or DCA for example. Every one of them are padded significantly because of the projected time on the ground. But if any issues arise during the course of a day, the effects build up later in the day in other locations, resulting in delays.

An example of an airline that doesn't have a lot of padding and really got burned by it was Southwest. Southwest is famous for their turn times - 20 to 30 minutes in most cases. They are able to do this primarily because most of the crews are scheduled as throughs into and out of a particular destination. Same crew in and out in a majority of cases. Southwest management wanted to increase the number of departures without increasing the number of planes used. The result was a 15% decrease in OTP systemwide over a 12-month period and customer satisfaction rates dropping 10%.

Needless to say, they corrected this and things are better.

Unlike airlines, buses operate on the road, the same roads where cars are. While airlines face congestion, they are a result of entering or leaving an airport in most case. If there's an issue with a particular airspace, they can easily maneuver around it and have assistance with both their dispatcher and ATC to do so in addition to their computers and vector systems. Drivers in general only have their instinct, experience and maybe GPS to deal with accidents, weather and construction. Those rest stops may be excessive, but they are based on past performance of schedules and what the terminal reports as problems. You need padding to anticipate potential traffic, congestion and late starts from connections.

As railiner mentioned earlier, safety is paramount in Greyhound culture. They prefer to take the drivers off the road every 3-4 hours to break up the driving and keep the drivers relaxed and refreshed as much as possible.

Also, you shouldn't assume why a particular bus is scheduled without knowing any of the facts aside from what you see. In my experience as a dispatcher, in the field, in the office and in OSC in Dallas, any number of factors can influence why buses do and do not go out. It could be that the driver on the previous leg experienced a problem enroute, that particular bus needed to get to be switched off to another route or was requested by Dallas to be held for another unknown purpose.

 

[jebr]

Speaking of wish, I did take Greyhound the other weekend on my way back from Chicago to St. Paul. My thoughts:

1. The Chicago Greyhound station needs, at minimum, better cleaning services. The men's bathroom was extremely dirty and my significant other reported that the women's bathroom was the worst she's seen (and she's traveled a lot.)

2. In-station wi-fi (at least in Chicago) needs to be fixed. The wi-fi at the station was extremely slow; so slow that I could not surf the web effectively or download a few podcasts to listen to on the bus. I can understand the slowness on a bus, but not at a station. There were maybe 100 people within the station, and even a business-class connection of 100Mb (enough to give people at least a reasonable, if not extremely fast, connection) in a major city should only cost a couple hundred bucks on the high end. Wi-fi at Union Station is much better, as is the wi-fi at St. Paul's Union Depot.

3. The bus itself was fine, if not amazing. It took a bit to find a comfortable position to sleep in (this was an overnight, 7.5 hour travel time route,) but overall wasn't too bad. My significant other commented that she got decent sleep on the bus as well. The bus driver did make two unexpected stops at a highway rest area to use the restroom there; passengers could not get off. The scheduled rest stop in Tomah was also made and was fine. I did sleep for probably another 4-5 hours once I got home, though that may be a mix of not-great sleep on the bus and general lack of sleep.

Overall, once we got on the bus the trip was fine. The Chicago station is so terrible, though, that we will likely avoid any Greyhound route going through Chicago due to that unless it has some major cost advantage over Megabus (the other competing bus service on this route) or Spirit Airlines (which we use for quick trips due to its very inexpensive cost and speed advantage.) At this time it usually does not have that advantage.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I agree with what you guys are saying. Meal stops should definitely be made. I guess you guys haven't ridden Greyhound in the West. The excessive stops I'm talking about are when the driver stops every 1-2 hours for a "smoke break". To me, there is a big difference between a meal stop and a smoke break.

See, I get pissed when the Reno-Salt Lake City bus makes rest stops at Lovelock, Winnemucca, Battle Mountain, Elko, and Wendover, regardless of day or night and regardless of previous delays. I also get pissed when the driver turns on the interior lights while making a smoke break in the middle of the night. These stops are excessive. I don't need to use the restroom 5 times on a 8-hour bus ride. And the Reno-Salt Lake City would only be 8 hours if Greyhound didn't have a 68 mph speed governor and excessive stops like the aforementioned. The driver would probably rather driver 8 hours fast than 10 hours slow. And pay him by the mile so he doesn't intentionally delay his bus.

The speed limit is 75 mph. No reason why Greyhound should be restricted to 68 mph when tractor-trailers are going 75. It's not "safety" anymore when you are going slower than everyone else. I'd be shocked if a DL3 couldn't safety run through the big, flat desert at the speed limit of 75 mph. And a lot of routes in the West are big, flat deserts with 75 mph speed limits. Some are even 80 mph.

And if Greyhound really cared so much about safety, why would they defer maintenance? I've seen Greyhound's SAFERSYS records. Lots of violations. Lots more violations than a good bus line like Adirondack. Why defer maintenance if you care about "safety"? Why not maintain your buses properly and drive the speed limit with confidence?

I'm not against padding, I'm not against rest stops, nor am I against speed governors. I am against too much padding, too many rest stops, and speed governors well below the actual speed limit.

Am I wrong?

Jeb, do you remember what bus you rode?

 

[mightyjoe1201]

Swadian, you are one if the first people ice cone across outside if the transportation industry that thinks speed governors that cut the vehicle back to below the speed limit is wrong. Thank God you feel that way cause its been proven that going slower then traffic is more dangerous.

As to getting paid by the mile, it really doesn't force a driver to try to stay on time because he knows he probably won't get extra miles given the hours of service laws. You get more productivity out of hourly drivers then by the mile drivers. Especially knowing that you will make far less by the mile then by the hour.

I agree mostly with the rest stops. If it's not on the schedule then don't stop, especially at night. I smoke myself but would sooner buy a vape or e cigarette then stop countless times. And if the driver is running late, no matter the fault don't sit. When you get to a pick up/ drop off stop only stay ling enough yo get passengers on or off and pull out right away. A meal stop is different even tho I feel they should be skipped if the bus is running excessively late.

Your right, maintenance should never be deferred unless it's minor and a non safety issue that can wait till at a shop. Otherwise, get it fixed on the road even if it means extra money or extra time. I'd rather lose time to get a bus fixed th st has safety issues then continue till the next station with a repair shop.

I cam understand padding if it's a schedule that is known to have major traffic or weather delays but otherwise agree with you. I know with my bus schedule there are times I wish I had more time to do my run but do it anyway. The padding issue sounds like something the unions idiots wanted.

Greyhound could get rid of the union then maintenance and excessive stopping, etc would probably stop.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Get rid of the union? Ah, I don't think that's going to happen. Those drivers would get really angry if they found out the company was going to bust the ATU. It probably wouldn't be good for the company and it'd be a PR disaster. Though even some drivers say the union leaders are stupid.

The union probably doesn't cause deferred maintenance, though. I don't know what causes deferred maintenance at Greyhound, but surely they know that it's always cheaper to maintain buses properly than to defer maintenance. Clearly, Greyhound doesn't maintain all their buses as well as they can and should. Apparently Greyhound decided to defer maintenance and they "play it safe" by driving below the speed limit.

No offence, but I hope you can quit smoking as it is very bad for your health.

I find that I sleep well on overnight runs when the bus is comfortable and the schedule is timed along a hypnogram (which shows REM and deep sleep). Slept very well on DL3 #60316 running the Los Angeles-Sacramento overnight extra section because there was only one rest stop at Avenal and another quick stop in Stockton, but more importantly, the stops came when I wasn't in deep sleep. I was alert the whole day and didn't go to bed until 11:00 PM, despite getting tortured on the D4505 connecting to Reno. Slept like crap on the Reno-SLC overnights with Painful Premiers.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

Sorry, I don't care for unions. Its a thought tho because without them greyhound could be a lot better then they are. I'm sure even the mechanics are union which is probably why they try to avoid maintenance on the road.

I've tried quitting smoking but it's not easy, especially when my girlfriend smokes also. Maybe someday it'll happen.

I don't know how anyone can sleep on a moving bus. No matter how comfortable the seats are. I have a hard time sleeping in a moving vehicle. I don't get sick but just can't sleep well unless I'm totally exhausted. I never did understand why the interior lights had to be turned on if it was only the driver getting off. I could see if passengers can get off or its at a bus station or stop where they will be getting on or off or a meal stop. If the driver needs a light there is a driver's light that can be used so not to disturb the passengers.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I'm not a member of a union and I've never worked with or dealt with a union before, so I will no judge whether unions are good or bad. All I can say is that the unions probably aren't the only cause of Greyhound's problems. For example, I find it hard to understand why Greyhound ordered Painful Premiers. That probably wasn't caused by the unions. I doubt they would dictate the specific seat model that Greyhound orders, though it is true that the Premiers are Made in USA.

That being said, you do have a point. Unions probably prevent Greyhound from cracking down on intentional driver delays and also reduce the power and control that Greyhound has over their schedules. Still, I find it hard to see why Greyhound runs Reno-Salt Lake City so slowly. Perhaps the slow speed governors were installed to help Greyhound drivers earn more pay?

As for smoking, it's probably very hard to quit, but it's dangerous and could kill you.

Perhaps you can't sleep on a moving bus because you are a driver and, instinctively, you do not sleep on a moving vehicle. Though, I mean, if you're flying on an intercontinental jet such as a 747, travelling overnight, you'd have to sleep or face terrible jet lag. I personally prefer daytime flights.

 

[rickycourtney]

Goodbye G4500 headlights... looks like the D4505 and all the flavors of the D4500CT and the D4000CT are now coming equipped with new LED headlights. I also heard there's a newly redesigned rear end cap. Couple that with the tweaked interior design Swad posted... it's clear to me that MCI does not intend to totally redesign the D4505, they're just putting more lipstick on this old design.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I don't think they have a new rear cap. Looks the same to me. But damn, does that Toronto Police D4505 look ugly! The LED headlights look horrible on the D4505, especially when their filler caps aren't the same color as the rest of the bus. To make things worse, there's the ugly black curve painted over the front.

The D4500CT looks better now, but still looks horrible in NJT's livery. The LED headlights, bonded roof, and black curve painted on don't mix with the framed windows and silversides.

Looks aside, does this mean MCI actually has a competitive product to Prevost's X3-45 now? That D4500CT demonstrator was for private operators, since it had the lavatory, TVs, and enclosed parcel racks. That particular unit was reportedly delivered to Peter Pan. In addition to LED headlights and the new interior, the D4500CT now has a DD13 engine and IFS. Still, I can see two disadvantages compared to the X3-45: a shorter wheelbase and smaller fuel tank. As for advantages, I see the higher driver's seat and lower window sill.

 

[jebr]

I don't remember what the number was. I thought I had saved it, but I didn't.

The seats (and the interior) looked something like this:

I sat a couple rows behind the handicapped area, about where the vent is.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

So it was a DL3? At least one Blue G (#7027) also has those seats, as does some of the oldest X3-45s, but the X3-45s with those seats have cloth covers. The seats you sat in probably didn't have cloth clovers, right?

Most likely you were riding a DL3. Those things are definitely much better than the D4505s. Some have suffered from deferred maintenance, littering, and vandalism, but they're always comfortable.

I also found some blog posts on Greyhound:

http://bloggreyhound.com/beautiful-banff-a-journey-to-and-around-the-city-2/

http://bloggreyhound.com/proof-that-nothing-beats-the-window-seat/.

Not sure whether the first post is a GLI- or GLC-original DL3, which would dictate the interior, but the bus in the second blog post appears to have been #1150, which a GLC original, even though the interior shots show Patriot PT seats, which were not ordered by GLC. So either #1150 got Patriot PTs during the rebuild, or the interior shots are not from #1150.

Edit: BTW, those aren't vents. Those are just slits on a parcel rack cover. DL3s don't have vents there (http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/greyhound/d/gry_1119int.jpg).

 

[mightyjoe1201]

I may have asked thus before, but how long ago did GLI start buying the x3-45?

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Their first batch was in 2008. Those had cloth velour Patriot PT seats, similar to the ones in the DL3. Then, in 2009, they switched to the Painful Premier. Some of the 2008 X3-45s have been transferred to GLC Eastern Canada. GLC has never bought X3-45s.

Railiner, do Adirondack's pre-2009 seats have center armrests? Those are National Seating, if I identified correctly from pictures. American Seating always has a recline button in the armrest.

Even though the LED headlights are now standard, MCI still offers the traditional D4500CL: http://mtnride.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/20150611_111853-Bustang-1024x576.jpg.

 

[rickycourtney]

I may have asked thus before, but how long ago did GLI start buying the x3-45?

First X3-45 coaches were purchased in 2008.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

Thanks. I was thinking back to the trip I took from tomah, WI to boonville, MO after getting fired from one co and going to the next. It was in 2010 and I'm pretty sure now that it was a brand new x3-45. I do remember the driver, after he calmed down from me screaming at him for being about 4 hours late saying it was a brand new bus th st was only in its second run.

 

[jebr]

My bus had leather seats, not cloth.

 

[rickycourtney]

I feel like that switch to LED's was based on the demands of transit operators. Those lights use the industry standard LED light units.

New Flyer has been using these lights on their coaches for the past 10 years... Prevost has been using them for at least 7 years (all of Greyhound's X3-45 coaches have LED headlights)... MCI is just now catching up.

I think that's pretty well reflects my feelings on the D4500/D4505... it's playing catch up with the X3-45 and the J4500... based on the demands of the only customers that seem to matter... large transit agencies.

 

[railiner]

Edit: BTW, those aren't vents. Those are just slits on a parcel rack cover. DL3s don't have vents there (http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/greyhound/d/gry_1119int.jpg).

Actually, you could call those slits, vents......that is the only covered part of the parcel rack, besides the one on the opposite side, and behind them are the blower's that ducts ambient air to the individual vents above each seat.

*

Adirondack's pre-2009 seats did not have center armrests....although, I'm not sure about our two 2006 Van Hools....need to take another look at them....

 

[rickycourtney]

Thanks. I was thinking back to the trip I took from tomah, WI to boonville, MO after getting fired from one co and going to the next. It was in 2010 and I'm pretty sure now that it was a brand new x3-45. I do remember the driver, after he calmed down from me screaming at him for being about 4 hours late saying it was a brand new bus th st was only in its second run.

Greyhound put 190 X3-45 coaches on the road between 2008 and 2009, 90 between 2012 and 2013 and another 55 in 2014.

You might have caught one of the last buses delivered in the first batch.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

That a possible. It would have been July or August of 2010 when I took that trip. The greyhound part a were the moat comfortable part a too

 

[rickycourtney]

Edit: BTW, those aren't vents. Those are just slits on a parcel rack cover.

I'm reasonably sure that there's a part of the HVAC system behind those vents. It's not a regular cover over a parcel rack.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

All the overhead bins are completely empty. See this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C81uYEC-x9c.

There's nothing behind those slits, so how are they vents? I'm talking about the slits on the side of the parcel rack, not the ambient vents on the bottom of them.

The official sources are incorrect. According to Texas DMV, Greyhound got 19 X3-45s in 2008, 102 X3-45s in 2009. So Greyhound couldn't have had 190 X3-45s before 2011, unless one counts BoltBus. They got at least 35 more in 2011, though the model years get mixed up with build years from there on out. Currently, Greyhound X3-45 numbers are #86001-86299 and #86650-86689. Plus special units #60401-60420, Americanos units #60580-60593, and BoltBus units #801-870.

BoltBus never got any X3-45s after 2009.

Since Adirondack's old National seats don't have center armrests, I'll assume no Nationals have center armrests.

So basically, the D4500CL/CT is still worse than the X3-45, H3-45, and J4500. And that seems to be confirmed by this video, showing a rattling new D4500CL for Bustang: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBeGewp0SVA.

You can hear the rattling in the background, and man, does that Cummins sound ugly! Same rattling in Houston's new D4500CTHs, plus jerking to boot.