Greyhound seats and fleet questions

[Swadian Hardcore]

I see what you're talking about. So I went back and looked at this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C81uYEC-x9c. It's got the mullion that should be connected to the HVAC, but there is clearly no auxiliary HVAC in the parcel racks. Maybe DL3s have that thick mullion regardless of whether they have auxiliary HVAC.

So the driver was right that we were breathing in recirculated air, but even with some outside air coming in, is there a way for the toilet odor to be ejected? What Greyhound is doing right now isn't getting rid of the odor and opening the windows might not be OK even when the engine is off.

Unfortunately, I have not found anything on the fuel capacity of a auxiliary-fuel-tank-equipped DL3.

Is GLI blocking off ADI's expansion with the pool agreement? ADI cannot expand even if their expansion doesn't compete with GLI?

Saw GLI's New York City-Miami route on BusTracker and was wondering if 301 would be a viable way of bypassing Washington.

 

[rickycourtney]

See? I knew there was some kind of HVAC equipment behind that vented cover.

I'm glad to hear that it's actually cooling the air and not just blowing it around. I frequently feel way too warm on buses (and planes too). I usually dress in layers as I travel, but it's not always enough.

The best way to ensure that the toilet smells aren't recirculated is to create negative pressure in the restroom. In other words create a situation where the air is sucked out of that space and sent outside. What would also happen is that air would be sucked from the rest of the coach into the restroom. I think they try to create a situation where the restroom is inherently a negative pressure space... but it sounds like it's not happening 100% of the time. Maybe a small blower could be installed to help boost the air flow.

 

[railiner]

I see what you're talking about. So I went back and looked at this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C81uYEC-x9c. It's got the mullion that should be connected to the HVAC, but there is clearly no auxiliary HVAC in the parcel racks. Maybe DL3s have that thick mullion regardless of whether they have auxiliary HVAC.

So the driver was right that we were breathing in recirculated air, but even with some outside air coming in, is there a way for the toilet odor to be ejected? What Greyhound is doing right now isn't getting rid of the odor and opening the windows might not be OK even when the engine is off.

Unfortunately, I have not found anything on the fuel capacity of a auxiliary-fuel-tank-equipped DL3.

Is GLI blocking off ADI's expansion with the pool agreement? ADI cannot expand even if their expansion doesn't compete with GLI?

Saw GLI's New York City-Miami route on BusTracker and was wondering if 301 would be a viable way of bypassing Washington.

It's kind of hard to see how it's set up from that video.but the 102D3's had an overhead blower compartment near the front....that DL-3 seems to have one there also, above the entrance door. Not sure if there is one behind that overhead door on the driver's side or not....would have to get inside the actual coach to know for sure....

The Prevost's have a lav exhaust fan that keeps the lav air refreshed (as long as it's working, sometimes they quit)....I can't say for sure, but the MCI should have something similar.

I don't believe current MCI's offer an auxiliary fuel tank in their specs, but if you look at earlier models like the MC7, I believe standard capacity was around 144 gallons, with an optional 35 gallon tank available...total 179... The current ones say 192 gallons standard, IIRC. Prevost H3's have 235 gallon tanks.

I did some Googleing, and came up with several sources you might check out. Here is one link.... http://busconversion101.com/mci_specifications.htm#MCI®D SERIES COACH

Obviously, we would not want to compete with our pool partner. I am not privy to the terms of our agreement. We have had the opportunity to expand in certain area's, (Vermont comes to mind, when GL effectively pulled out of much of there), but our principal did not do so. As it stands, we can barely cover what we already have, as far as driver resources......

I don't think I would take 301....too many slow sections and major toll bridges to cross.

But it is interesting if I just wanted to tour and see something different from I-95.

Greyhound used to operate over portions of it on a Baltimore to Newport News route a long time ago....

Found this interesting website on it....brings back memories of when I was a teenager driving with my family to Florida in the early sixties. We used 301 south of Richmond before I-95 was built....http://www.route301.org/#!home/mainPage

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

The video is actually a 102DL3, not a 102D3. Don't know the arrangement in the D3.

The D4505 do have a blower in the lavatory, but for some reason, it appears to suck the lavatory air out into the rest of the bus. On many occasions, I found the lavatory to be the cleanest and least smelly part of the D4505. Other possibilities could be that Greyhound focuses on cleaning the lavatory and forgets everything else, or maybe the lack of vinyl and carpet in the lavatory.

I'll have to ask around to try and find out the auxiliary fuel tank capacity.

So it's the lack of drivers that strains ADI's expansion more than the pool agreement? Would a simple interline agreement be better?

Since 301 is apparently problematic, what would be the quickest way from New York City to Miami? Greyhound takes a full 29:50 to run the 1011 all the way.

 

[rickycourtney]

If you have a fan that's pushing outside air *into* the lavatory, there's also the chance of pushing lavatory smells out into the cabin. That's why the fan needs to pull the air *out* of the lavatory.

Another thing that could help is moving to better designed flush toilet. The trick would be moving beyond the porta-potty with recirculating blue water and move to a design like an RV toilet where you have separate clean water and black water storage tanks. Vonlane uses a setup like this. Another benefit to that design is that it would also allow for a real sink with running water and a water spigot for passengers to get a cup of water or refill a water bottle en route. The downside is that it's more complicated and might take longer to service.

 

[railiner]

The lav exhaust fan on the Prevost H3 works as you describe....it is mounted under the lav floor, accessible in the engine compartment. It is a small, but powerful centrifugal type blower that draws air from a mesh grille in the fiberglas just beneath the front of the toilet. It does create a slight negative pressure, and air from the coach is drawn in thru the gap at the bottom of the lav door. If the blower quits for some reason, like a blown fuse, the restroom gets unbearably warm inside, besides not exhausting the odors.

I think for a line bus, a plain non-flushing toilet works out much better. The maintenance required for a flushing toilet is extensive, if done properly....The toilet must be periodically taken apart and pressure-steam cleaned to clear the water jets of tiny bits of toilet paper that get clogged inside, and result in bacterial odors, that even dumping the toilet will not eliminate. And the baffle plate always seems to have 'deposits' stuck on them that even repeated flushing will not clear away...

Having potable water on tap is another maintenance headache. The Purell sanitizer is a better solution for a line bus, and no potential freeze up problems. If you want to provide drinking water, I like C&J's way better....they have a 'fridge' full of help-yourself bottled water.

 

[railiner]

So it's the lack of drivers that strains ADI's expansion more than the pool agreement? Would a simple interline agreement be better?

The main reason for not expanding, is the owner of the company does not seem to want to....I have never had the opportunity to discuss the matter with him, so can't say for certain....

If he wanted to, I'm sure we could eventually recruit the necessary help. Our agreement with Greyhound is modeled after other ones, like the ones Greyhound had with Capital Motor Lines/Colonial Trailways, and Peter Pan. It is a revenue-sharing operation, where we earn a pro-rated proportion of the total revenue earned on the routes covered by the agreement...in a sense, operating as if we were a merged company, as far as passenger's could tell. We take it a step beyond the Peter Pan model, in that we drive each other's buses...on some trips from Boston to Cleveland, for example, ADT drives the bus from Albany to Syracuse, or NYT drives it from Syracuse to Buffalo. The GL driver's run it from Boston to Albany, and from Buffalo to Cleveland. Or on another example, a GL driver will drive a TNY bus on the entire trip from Rochester to NYC.....The mileages are totaled and prorated over a certain period. Peter Pan and GL do not operate each other's buses...they just alternate running the schedules....

I would imagine we have a 'non-competition' clause in our agreement, but as I mentioned, I am not privy to that information. Member's of the Trailways association always had that agreement among their members....

 

[railiner]

Since 301 is apparently problematic, what would be the quickest way from New York City to Miami? Greyhound takes a full 29:50 to run the 1011 all the way.

Back in the mid-nineties, Greyhound ran some really fast trips on I-95 from New York City to Miami....

They left NYC, made a highway reststop in Maryland, then stopped in Richmond, Fayetteville, Savannah, Jacksonville, Fort Pierce, Fort Lauderdale, and Miami....

IIRC, the fastest trip including rest and station stops was about 25 hours....

 

[railiner]

Now I'll have to take another look at our 'J's, and our Prevost's....

I did check out a 'J' today, and sure enough, they have a similar setup to the DL-3....A deeper mullion carrying refrigerant and power lines to an auxiliary A/C unit on each side...

One more to check out next week.....

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Seems like the H3-45 has a very effective lavatory exhaust fan. Does the X3-45 have a similar fan? They certainly don't smell nearly as bad as the D4505. The DL3s and G4500s with straight dumps also don't have the odor. Even if their fan breaks, just keep the toilet lid on and there probably won't be an odor.

Even with a better flushing toilet design, I still think Greyhound would defer maintenance and let it clog up, then rot inside. Perhaps a compressed-air flushing toilet, such as those on airliners, would work better. Or maybe something like the bio toilet on JAL's 787s. All are better than the D4505 toilet. Straight dumps actually aren't bad at all and are perfectly sanitary and useable if it's simply cleaned properly.

Since many buses these days lack the middle seat in the rear, that position could be perfect for a drinking water tank. Drinking water deliveries en-masse are very cheap anyways.

I can't understand why there would be a non-competition clause when GLI is still technically competing with ADI and PPP. I know that, in the case of PPP, I'd always take them over Greyhound as they have more comfortable seats. Perhaps the non-competition clause allows running the same routes, but only on alternating schedules.

What's the difference between an interline agreement and a pool agreement? I understand they are something along the lines of a codeshare and a JV, respectively.

Still, ADI could have expanded all the way to Maine after Greyhound route cuts throughout VT/NH/ME.

Greyhound's current New York City-Miami only makes two more stops than your example, at Raleigh and Orlando, but takes 5 hours longer.

 

[railiner]

I can't understand why there would be a non-competition clause when GLI is still technically competing with ADI and PPP. I know that, in the case of PPP, I'd always take them over Greyhound as they have more comfortable seats. Perhaps the non-competition clause allows running the same routes, but only on alternating schedules.

What's the difference between an interline agreement and a pool agreement? I understand they are something along the lines of a codeshare and a JV, respectively.

Still, ADI could have expanded all the way to Maine after Greyhound route cuts throughout VT/NH/ME.

Greyhound is not competing with ADT, or PPB...and haven't been for a long time....since the revenue sharing or pooling agreement went into effect. Greyhound's competition now is Stagecoach owned companies (Coach USA/Canada and Megabus), as well as the Chinatown, and other cut-rate operators.

Pooling means operating jointly....sharing revenue, shedule's, equipment, etc....

An interline agreement is the basic system of selling beyond one's own routes....Adirondack and Peter Pan have interline agreements,(but not pooling), as do virtually the entire network of "legacy" bus carrier's, members of the National Bus Traffic Association, This organization provides a means of "reclaiming revenue when honoring a ticket sold by another carrier. It is similar to the airlines "ARC" ticketing (Amtrak fought for, and eventually was allowed into that traffic association, also). That allowed any travel agent that sold airline tickets to begin selling Amtrak tickets.

Of course, that whole system is more or less obsolete, with the advent of self 'e'-ticketing online....

So....while you may prefer riding PPB over GLI on say, a New York to Boston trip, the reality of it is, that GLI will get a share of your fare, regardless....

So now,,,,if you think you have that all figured out...I will throw you a curveball....PHK is not in the pool with ADT and GLI. So if you ride the slow scenic PHK bus from NYC to Utica via Cooperstown, GLI and ADTdo not share in that. And then there is Bonanza, (BZ), subsidiary of Peter Pan...They also run New York to Hartford, as do PPB and GLI. They also are not in the pool with PPB and GLI. They run a slightly different route (via Danbury and Waterbury rather than New Haven). Similarly, BZ operates New York to Boston via Providence. Again not in the pool.

 

[railiner]

Greyhound's current New York City-Miami only makes two more stops than your example, at Raleigh and Orlando, but takes 5 hours longer.

Hmmm....perhaps it was 27 hours, not 25....just trying to recall off the top of my head.....

Taking I-95 direct bypassing Raleigh and Orlando, would account for an hour and a half....and shorter servicing stops than what 1011 does could also save a couple of hours.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

So what if Peter Pan wasn't pooling with Greyhound, and was simply interlining as part of the NBTA while running over certain Greyhound routes? Would Greyhound attack Peter Pan as a competitor would, or would they continue to cooperate since they are interlining through the NBTA?

Is there potential competition within the NBTA, or are they an alliance even without pooling and sharing revenue?

Do NBTA members have a free hand in expansion? It appears that pooling bus lines have major restrictions on expansion. I'm getting that Peter Pan would not be able to expand to Bangor and Adirondack would not be able to expand into Boston.

 

[railiner]

So what if Peter Pan wasn't pooling with Greyhound, and was simply interlining as part of the NBTA while running over certain Greyhound routes? Would Greyhound attack Peter Pan as a competitor would, or would they continue to cooperate since they are interlining through the NBTA?

Is there potential competition within the NBTA, or are they an alliance even without pooling and sharing revenue?

Do NBTA members have a free hand in expansion? It appears that pooling bus lines have major restrictions on expansion. I'm getting that Peter Pan would not be able to expand to Bangor and Adirondack would not be able to expand into Boston.

Before Greyhound and Peter Pan entered their current agreement, they were locked in a fierce fare war....walk-up fares from New York to Washington got as low as $5!

Remember....'interlining' does not mean cooperating on competitive routes...it is simply an accounting tool for collecting revenue when carrying a passenger on a ticket sold by another carrier. Adirondack will sell an 'interline' ticket from Kingston to Washington. When Greyhound or Peter Pan carries the passenger from New York to Washington, they will send the collected Adirondack ticket to Adirondack's accounting office to 'reclaim' their portion of the fare collected in Kingston. That is all there is to it.

No pooling or other revenue sharing.

Being a member of the traffic association means that you will agree to repay on demand the tickets you sold that another carrier provided the ride for. Usually the selling carrier will earn a modest commission, and make it more convenient for the passenger to buy their entire trip at one point of sale. The traffic association also covers bus package express shipped interline. Not all carrier's belong to the association, and sometimes will only interline with certain members, not all. This was how it all got started in the 1920's and '30's, but deregulation and online ticketing has changed a lot of the reason for the traffic association. They also used to act as agents for member carrier's by publishing complicated tariffs with the former Interstate Commerce Commission. That ended with deregulation....

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

What if it's indirect competition? Let's say Jefferson extended their Minneapolis-Missoula route to Seattle. Greyhound already runs Seattle-Missoula. Would Greyhound allow Jefferson to use its Seattle terminal, or would Greyhound stop cooperating with Jefferson? Clearly, Greyhound can't interline with Jefferson if they don't let them use their terminals and Jefferson would be effectively kicked out of the NBTA.

Revenue sharing seems like a bad idea because it allows one company to slack while the other company gets less profit than they deserve. Case in point: Greyhound being less comfortable than Peter Pan but they get equal revenue even if passengers explicitly boycott Greyhound.

 

[railiner]

Let me direct your attention please, to some of the highlighted downloads available at the ABA - NBTA website: http://bustraffic.org/NIBD_TOC.aspx

Perhaps these will give you a better understanding of what the rules are....note particularly what it says about getting DOT - STB approval for pooling....

To answer your questions above....why would Jefferson compete with Greyhound, when they have always been cooperating? If Greyhound did not want to run from Seattle to Missoula, then I suppose they would encourage JL to take it over, as they have done elsewhere....

As to allowing another carrier to use their terminal....if it is a 'friendly' carrier, that has a positive relationship with GL, they would always allow them to use it. If it is an archrival, then perhaps not. But even there they must be careful....case in point, the infamous Pacific Trailways (Mount Hood Stages) debacle....

One line does not have the power to "kick out" another line from the NBTA. The NBTA only has that power, based on adherence to NBTA policies.

As to whether revenue sharing is a good idea or not....well like many things, it has its pro's and con's.....as we can all see...

but to some, its the bottom line (pun intended), that decides that....

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Jefferson wouldn't be wanting to compete with Greyhound, but simply to expand and add one of their own frequencies to the route. They are still friendly carriers, just two friendly carriers operating the same route, similar to JAL and AA both operating DFW-NRT in the near future. AFAIK, JAL and AA do not pool with each other.

Since NBTA carriers interline with each other, I assume that they are obviously friendly carriers and would naturally use each other's terminals. I highly doubt archrivals would be interlining with each other in the first place, so they wouldn't both be in the NBTA.

I assume that the only way for Jefferson to become Greyhound's competitor is to leave the NBTA. And I doubt expansion is a violation of the NBTA's policies, so Greyhound can't kick out Jefferson, and so they will still cooperate even if Jefferson expands on a route Greyhound already operates.

 

[railiner]

Did you read the NBTA reference I suggested?

I think you're missing the point....Any bus carrier can be a member of the NBTA, whether 'friendly' or competitive with others. Case in point....Greyhound and members of the National Trailways Bus System were fierce competitors, until eventually Greyhound purchased Continental Trailways, and briefly became a member of the Trailways association.

All that time that they competed, they were still members of the NBTA. Nothing in the NBTA's rules precludes competition between member carrier's....

On the other hand...members of the Trailways association are not permitted to compete with fellow members. I think you may be confusing the two organization's....they have entirely different purposes...

Since the remaining Trailways carrier's have mostly entered into a pool agreement with Greyhound, the only competitor's left in the NBTA that compete with Greyhound are some Coach USA legacy carrier's that still interline, like Short Line (Hudson Transit Lines). And even Short Line competes only in a few places that they both serve albeit over slightly different routes....for example....GLI New York-Scranton-Binghamton-Whitney Point-Ithaca and HTL New York-Middletown-Binghamton-Owego-Ithaca....

As far as I know, Megabus is not an NBTA member (I could be wrong), but irregardless, GL would never 'interline' with them, nor permit them to use a GL terminal, even if they wanted to, which is not likely.....

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I didn't read all the documents and instead saved them for future reference.

OK, I get what you mean now. NBTA is simply an association, not an alliance.

My question would be, if Jefferson were to extend into Seattle and remain friendly to Greyhound, would Greyhound continue to cooperate with them and let them use their Seattle terminal? Would they view Jefferson as an ally on the same route or as a competitor?

 

[mightyjoe1201]

Railiner, I'm kind of confused a bit with some of what you guys a talking about. When carriers pool, does that me am they pool all resources or just ticketing and routes? I remember a bus trip I was on to get to one of the trucking jobs I had and remember hearing a trailways driver saying he was jealous cause one of his fellow drivers had a greyhound bus rather then a trailways bus.

 

[rickycourtney]

Let me see both if I've got it right and if I can better simplify this.

Let's take an imaginary part of the country.
There are two big cities, Megalopolis, Centerville and one small city, Littleville.
There are three bus companies in that region, Greyhound, Circle Line and Pine Line. All three are NBTA members.
Greyhound runs 3 daily round trips between Megalopolis and Centerville.
Circle Line also runs 3 daily round trips between Megalopolis and Centerville.
Pine Line runs 2 daily round trips between Centerville and Littleville.


Example #1 (Pool)
Greyhound and Circle Line team up to operate a pool between Megalopolis and Centerville. Greyhound gets 55 percent of the profits and Circle Line gets 45 percent. Passengers benefit because they now have 6 daily round trips to choose from. Greyhound benefits because they're getting they're getting a cut of every fare between the two cities. Circle Line benefits because of Greyhound's better marketing and nationwide ticketing, their buses are now running with many more passengers.

Example #2 (Interline)
A passenger buys a ticket in Megalopolis for Littleville at the Greyhound ticket office. That passenger boards a Greyhound bus and rides to Centerville. At Centerville he catches a Pine Line bus to Littleville. Pine Line then submits to Greyhound for payment of the ticket price, less a standard agent fee (say $5). The passenger benefits because they were able to purchase the ticket from one agent (Greyhound) and get to travel all the way to their destination. Greyhound benefits because they're $5 from Pine Line for a trip they didn't provide. Pine Line benefits because they got a passenger who may have picked a different transportation method if they had to be ticketed twice. Circle Line also benefits because they get 45 percent of the profits for the Megalopolis-Centerville portion of the trip.

 

[railiner]

I didn't read all the documents and instead saved them for future reference.

OK, I get what you mean now. NBTA is simply an association, not an alliance.

My question would be, if Jefferson were to extend into Seattle and remain friendly to Greyhound, would Greyhound continue to cooperate with them and let them use their Seattle terminal? Would they view Jefferson as an ally on the same route or as a competitor?

Well you tell me....if you were Greyhound, what would you do?

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I didn't read all the documents and instead saved them for future reference.

OK, I get what you mean now. NBTA is simply an association, not an alliance.

My question would be, if Jefferson were to extend into Seattle and remain friendly to Greyhound, would Greyhound continue to cooperate with them and let them use their Seattle terminal? Would they view Jefferson as an ally on the same route or as a competitor?

Well you tell me....if you were Greyhound, what would you do?

If I were Greyhound, I wouldn't be deferring maintenance and using D4505s and Painful Premiers. I also wouldn't let drivers run amok with intentional delays. So, I'm not in the best position to predict what Greyhound would do. But if I were Greyhound in this case, I'd let Jefferson expand to Seattle and use the extra frequency to help both of us. Jefferson would need to offer Greyhound tickets and market the route, but would not be forced to pool with Greyhound.

 

[railiner]

Railiner, I'm kind of confused a bit with some of what you guys a talking about. When carriers pool, does that me am they pool all resources or just ticketing and routes? I remember a bus trip I was on to get to one of the trucking jobs I had and remember hearing a trailways driver saying he was jealous cause one of his fellow drivers had a greyhound bus rather then a trailways bus.

The definition of 'pool' can be wide...

For many years, Trailways of NY (NYT and ADT) pooled equipment between Toronto, Buffalo, and New York City with Greyhound Lines of Canada. Each line would contribute a prorated amount of buses to represent the total of all bus miles operated on all schedules. Sometimes an extra trip would be ran for a while to correct an imbalance. This saved the thru passenger from having to change buses enroute. Only the driver's changed...

In the pool between NYT, ADT, and Greyhound Lines, Inc....it is that and more....a sharing of revenue on all routes included in the pool, based on an agreed prorated formula.

In the pool between Greyhound Lines and Peter Pan, it is also a sharing of revenue on all included routes in the pool, but equipment is not pooled. Each line drives only their own buses.

By the way, it is usually the one driving the Greyhound bus that is envious of the one driving the Trailways bus....

 

[railiner]

Let me see both if I've got it right and if I can better simplify this.

Let's take an imaginary part of the country.

There are two big cities, Megalopolis, Centerville and one small city, Littleville.

There are three bus companies in that region, Greyhound, Circle Line and Pine Line. All three are NBTA members.

Greyhound runs 3 daily round trips between Megalopolis and Centerville.

Circle Line also runs 3 daily round trips between Megalopolis and Centerville.

Pine Line runs 2 daily round trips between Centerville and Littleville.

Example #1 (Pool)

Greyhound and Circle Line team up to operate a pool between Megalopolis and Centerville. Greyhound gets 55 percent of the profits and Circle Line gets 45 percent. Passengers benefit because they now have 6 daily round trips to choose from. Greyhound benefits because they're getting they're getting a cut of every fare between the two cities. Circle Line benefits because of Greyhound's better marketing and nationwide ticketing, their buses are now running with many more passengers.

Example #2 (Interline)

A passenger buys a ticket in Megalopolis for Littleville at the Greyhound ticket office. That passenger boards a Greyhound bus and rides to Centerville. At Centerville he catches a Pine Line bus to Littleville. Pine Line then submits to Greyhound for payment of the ticket price, less a standard agent fee (say $5). The passenger benefits because they were able to purchase the ticket from one agent (Greyhound) and get to travel all the way to their destination. Greyhound benefits because they're $5 from Pine Line for a trip they didn't provide. Pine Line benefits because they got a passenger who may have picked a different transportation method if they had to be ticketed twice. Circle Line also benefits because they get 45 percent of the profits for the Megalopolis-Centerville portion of the trip.

In a nutshell, a good explanation....