Greyhound seats and fleet questions

[mightyjoe1201]

Thanks. At the time tho the trailways buses apparently were mainly manual transmission where greyhound was all automatic. As a matter of fact, I think it might have been capital trailways too. It was in the early 2000's

 

[railiner]

I didn't read all the documents and instead saved them for future reference.

OK, I get what you mean now. NBTA is simply an association, not an alliance.

My question would be, if Jefferson were to extend into Seattle and remain friendly to Greyhound, would Greyhound continue to cooperate with them and let them use their Seattle terminal? Would they view Jefferson as an ally on the same route or as a competitor?

Well you tell me....if you were Greyhound, what would you do?

If I were Greyhound, I wouldn't be deferring maintenance and using D4505s and Painful Premiers. I also wouldn't let drivers run amok with intentional delays. So, I'm not in the best position to predict what Greyhound would do. But if I were Greyhound in this case, I'd let Jefferson expand to Seattle and use the extra frequency to help both of us. Jefferson would need to offer Greyhound tickets and market the route, but would not be forced to pool with Greyhound.

Good answer.

I am curious though....what makes you think that JL wants to extend to Seattle? Have you heard anything to indicate that happening? I was kind of under the impression that Jefferson's recent expansions far from 'home' were done somewhat reluctantly.....

 

[railiner]

Thanks. At the time tho the trailways buses apparently were mainly manual transmission where greyhound was all automatic. As a matter of fact, I think it might have been capital trailways too. It was in the early 2000's

When we sold off our last manually equipped bus( MC-9's), Greyhound Lines of Canada was still sending down several manual buses for a few more years. At a certain point, we stopped training new hires on them, and simply made sure they did not be in position to do so...it was a pain until the last manual left.

Funny thing was....when it was apparent that the last manual's would be gone shortly, suddenly lots of driver's who 'hated them', 'fought' for a chance to drive them...

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

It was just an expansion that I thought of off the top of my head and I have not heard news that Jefferson may want to do this, but it's not completely insensible, either. Seattle is larger than most of Jefferson's destinations and far larger than any city west of Minneapolis. Jefferson's been expanding and while the expansion could have been done "reluctantly" out of pressure by Greyhound, it may also have been limited by difficulties in finding drivers and prolonged discussions after Rimrock's sudden demise.

TBH, Jefferson doesn't appear to be aggressive or eager to expand. It is possible that they are being weighed down by loans, high fuel consumption, milk runs, and other troubles.

That being said, Jefferson already has cooperation with Greyhound on the Kansas City-Oklahoma City. They interline on the route without pooling and Jefferson gets to use Greyhound's terminals. That is the ideal cooperation as it provides profits for both Jefferson and Greyhound and through ticketing and extra frequencies for passengers.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Thanks. At the time tho the trailways buses apparently were mainly manual transmission where greyhound was all automatic. As a matter of fact, I think it might have been capital trailways too. It was in the early 2000's

When we sold off our last manually equipped bus( MC-9's), Greyhound Lines of Canada was still sending down several manual buses for a few more years. At a certain point, we stopped training new hires on them, and simply made sure they did not be in position to do so...it was a pain until the last manual left. Funny thing was....when it was apparent that the last manual's would be gone shortly, suddenly lots of driver's who 'hated them', 'fought' for a chance to drive them...

GLC's early DL3s had manual Fuller T-11607D transmissions. Did they send any of those down to the US? I know their CAT-powered 1997 DL3s were based in Vancouver and carried red "VAN" stickers on the rear plate above the grille. I've heard that GLC ordered manuals for better performance on Western Canada remote routes.

Found this pic of manual DL3 #999 (now preserved by a private owner) signed for Whitehorse: http://whitehorsestar.com/News/rolling-lifeline-to-yukon-called-invaluable.

Automatic DL3 driving the route: https://aaronuncanadian.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/northern-rockies-3.jpg.

Do the manuals save fuel over the automatics?

 

[railiner]

Yes they did send the 900 series DL-3's among other models down to New York....IIRC, those even had wheelchair lifts in them.

And at one time, manual transmission's, if shifted properly, would yield better mileage than a torque-converter automatic. When the automated manual came out, its computer insured proper shifting, and its additional gear ratio's yielded better mileage than manuals. I understand the latest Allison WT's have improved to the level of the automated manual....

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Did you enjoy driving the 900s? They're quite rare. #978-990 were 1995s with the Detroit/Fuller and #996-1009 were 1997s were the CAT/Fuller. I think the latter were all based out of Vancouver and wouldn't have gone to Toronto. All their photographs were taken in Western Canada.

Wonder if Greyhound would have upgraded their Allison-transmission DL3s to the latest version during the rebuilds. The ZFs stayed. How much does gear ratio affect fuel economy?

 

[railiner]

The DL-3's, they sent down (remember 978 and 979 especially), were 7-speeds. We never had those in our fleet, so it took quite a bit of practice to master. We had 4-speeds in our MC-9's that were very easy to shift. We did have a couple of 102C-3's with 5 speeds

The 7 speed had reverse way over to the left and up...first was down, and it was a very low 'granny gear' that you could normally not use unless starting with a heavy load on a steep hill....you would just about get moving, and it was time to shift to second,,,if you were not quick, you would lose momentum and have to slip the clutch to avoid stalling out.

From the neutral position, second was slightly left and up, third slightly left and down, fourth slightly right and up, fifth slightly right and down, sixth way over to the right and up, and seventh way over to the right and down..... you really had to push against a spring to reach reverse and first, and also to reach sixth and seventh. 2, 3, 4, and 5 were in a tight pattern in the center, and it was easy to mistake 2&4 or 3&5 until experienced.

So yes, while I would not want to have to constantly have to depress the clutch in heavy Lincoln Tunnel stop and go traffic, it was a challenge to learn to properly shift the 7 speed, and since by then all our 'sticks' were gone, it was enjoyable and satisfying to drive a manual occasionally....especially when a new driver couldn't drive it , and you got to 'show off' your skills....

*

Being in the proper gear ratio does have an impact on fuel economy....the engine operates most efficiently when in a certain speed range (RPM), and that will take being in the proper gear ratio at a given road speed...It's pretty hard for a human to beat a computer controlled automated manual at that task, except perhaps on a hilly highway, where the human can 'see' the ups and downs in advance and take advantage of that knowledge...

One interesting thing about those 7 speeds....even though fully manual, the engine ECU would limit RPM's in the lowest gears, forcing the driver to upshift earlier than the normal 'red line' for improved fuel economy....

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

4-speeds? What model were they?

Now that I check, perhaps those DL3s didn't have the Fuller T-11607D. Unreliable sources (CPTDB) state they have a Fuller T-14607D. Do you remember which one it was?

CPTDB really got tons of info wrong. #1125 and #1325 both crashed, but they're shown as "Active". Apparently #1069 has been "refurbished." No way #1025 was "transferred to Greyhound USA". #1162 and #1169 based out of Toronto when they've been running in Western Canada?! Argh! Their sources of info are obscure and their Greyhound forums are locked to non-members. Also, I thought #1135 and #1137 were both based out of Edmonton.

Speaking of equipment locations, I was surprised to find DL3 #6374 running Portland-Los Angeles and D4505 #86522 running Chicago-New York City.

I got gear ratio confused with axle ratio. How much difference in fuel economy would there be between, say, a DL3 with a 4.56 gear ratio and a 3.58?

 

[Caesar La Rock]

I think possibly a Fuller T-11605D. As for the information, I'll get to the bottom of that. No one has even bothered to check which coaches were wrecked or retired because of wrecks. I'm starting to think something is going on with the site as a whole.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

Probably not much in economy depending on where it is running. The 3.58 is better for a lot of hills but not always great fuel economy and the 4.56 is better on fuel but sucks royally on hills. You save fuel on flats but use more on hills. Thst was my experience in trucks anyway.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Wait, I thought the 3.58 has better fuel economy and the 4.56 has better traction? Because I heard axle ratios are higher when the number is lower and low when then number is higher, and a higher ratio should give better fuel economy.

Can't be a Fuller T-11605D. It's a 7-speed, and the T-11605D is a 5-speed.

Looks like someone really loves the H3-45: http://www.lifeinquebec.com/inter-city-bus-travel-in-quebec-will-never-be-the-same/.

Edit: Hey Ricky, I see you signed up for CPTDB. Perhaps you could take a peek in the "Greyhound" section of their forums and see what's going on.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

I may be confusing my rear axle ratios with gear ratios. But whichever the case, there really isn't much difference in economy in the ling run anyway. A higher ratio may be better economy on paper but if running hills like out west it's no better then a ratio for pulling hills. If it's on flat land yeah, you will het better economy. I wish people would stop going by what it says on paper. Because more often then not it'd not what's on paper. Just ask almost any truck or bus driver.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

I know that rear axle ratios the higher the number the harder it is to pull a hill. But also if the number is too low it's just as bad.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Ha! Then perhaps another "industry professional" is wrong, again! On GTE we were discussing fuel economy, and one guy pointed out the D4505 gets a lot worse than the X3-45 per Altoona Bus Testing. An industry professional responded by saying the D4505 got worse MPG because it had a less efficient axle ratio.

Well, the D4505 got 5.92 MPG with a 3.73 axle ratio and the X3-45 got 6.85 MPG with a 3.58 axle ratio. Damn big difference in fuel economy for such a small difference in axle ratio!

Prevost's got to be doing something right if they have beaten MCI in the private sector and their H3-45 is so popular with passengers.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

As I said Swadian, what it says on paper and what it does on the road are two different things. But I forgot, the ****ing idiots who have never driven or had to worry about fuel economy know more then those who drive the damn things. Yes, a small change in the ratio can make a significant difference, but remember, they are testing on flat ground, not real world applications.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

So, do you think it was really the difference in axle ratio that caused the big difference in fuel economy, or was it just that MCI's D4505 is a big disappointment?

BTW, the old D4500 with no EGR tested for 6.79 MPG at 4.56 axle ratio.

The problem is that the guy driving doesn't always worry about fuel economy, so he could be wasting fuel or rooting for the D4505 even if it uses more fuel. It's the owner of the bus that should be worrying about fuel economy and the owner isn't always driving.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

First, it could be it her factors too. Is the d4505 s heavier bus? If do that can affect fuel mileage. Also yes, the way a driver drives can affect it to.

I can't speak for drivers in the bus industry, but where I come from in the trucking industry, drivers do worry about it even off: they are co drivers because a lot of co give bonuses for fuel mileage. And drivers go by actually furl mileage based on not just how the vehicle is set up but also on hoe they drive, the weight they are carrying, the road conditions and the terrain. The testing Altoona does is if it's under perfect conditions which is total bull any way. There are no such thing as perfect conditions. That driver may have gotten better economy then most others. Its also possible that in the real world the d4505 did get better economy. I've driven truck for co and I've owned my own truck. I know what economy means and that it's hard to keep where some ***** testing firm says it should be. You have to factor in all variables or your nit going to get accurate mileage.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

Sorry about my typing. I don't always catch mistakes, it's small buttons and big fingers. Lol

 

[railiner]

I am not sure, but I had thought that the four speed was a Spicer tranny.

*

The higher the number ratio in a gear, axle or transmission, the lower the gear. A higher axle gear (lower number), should yield better fuel economy, but less power.

So a vehicle with a higher axle gear will require more downshifting, and often to a lower transmission gear, in order to climb hills. A vehicle with a lower axle gear, can sometimes handle certain hills without the need to downshift, or not down as far....

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Actually, the D4505 is a lighter bus. Cummins isn't the greatest engine ever, and that D4505 had a Cummins. Plus, if the D4505 was so efficient, it wouldn't be getting its butt kicked by the X3-45 and H3-45 in the private sector. And let's not forget the smelly flushing toilet and jerky ride quality.

You know, I checked National Seating again and found that they do offer center armrests in their flagship 4210SB10. Are ADI's 2008 H3-45s more comfortable or their 2014 H3-45s?

Perhaps Greyhound should use only fiberglass buses in the Salt Belt, as fiberglass doesn't corrode.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

You just answered your question about the economy. But then, I'm biased against Cummins. Lol. There could be any number of factors in the economy equation. You could have two buses with the exact same specs driven exactly the same and have one get better economy then the other.

I have to take your word on the 4505. I haven't been on one yet.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

If you ride a D4505, you might even like it. Some people seem to like it. When the ride isn't jerky, the toilet isn't clogged, the driver and passengers are respectable, and the seats aren't American Seating, it could be a decent ride.

Still, I find it worse than the White G, which used to be Greyhound's worst bus. Of course, most drivers prefer the D4505 over the White G. The big problem is when the ride is jerky. Even a brand-new D4505 unaffected by maintenance can be jerky, and that's a big problem. Fuel economy has been improved with the new DD13 offer; most truckers agree Detroit is more efficient than Cummins, even the new Detroits.

 

[railiner]

I personally prefer the seats in our 2008 H's better than the '14's. Mainly because I can extend my legs straight out under the seat ahead. I also find the backrest/headrest combination more comfortable to nap in....

 

[railiner]

Okay...I checked out a GLI DL-3 at The Port today. And I learned something new.....behind those slotted doors are auxiliary air conditioner's! The mullion between the windows that has a section curving into that overhead compartment does not contain an air duct, but rather freon and electrical lines from the main HVAC down below.

So the overhead vents on DL-3's are not simply blowing ambient air, but actually conditioned air. There is a fan inside also, to send the air thru a duct at the back of the rack leading to all of the overhead individual vents.

Live and learn.....

Hey....brought this back because I learned something more today.....

Not only are those air conditioner's in those overhead compartments, but heaters, as well!!

Besides the freon and power lines going up there, there are small copper hot water lines going into a small heater core.

Live and learn, part II

I also took a look at the X-3's....there does not appear to be anything but a power line going into the overhead blower's in them, so they are simply 'fans' to the individual overhead vents....