Greyhound seats and fleet questions

[Swadian Hardcore]

I'm not sure if you're interested in this... But it's been a steady stream of old beat up G4500 coaches here in Seattle the past few weeks (I've seen at least a half dozen.) But today I saw one D4505 going southbound through downtown (couldn't see the headsign). It makes me think these are buses that are making trips from California, turning around and going back south.

That's interesting. I heard from Keegan on GTE about Greyhound's Seattle garage, he lives in Seattle.

Keegan said that Seattle has received a batch of rebuilt G4500's, while the rest are still in line to be rebuilt. It is unclear how many units are in each batch and how fast the batches are being pumped out. Seattle also received 4 ex-Coach America Phoenix H3-45's, one of them is painted blue and the rest are plain white. You may have seen these going around but you didn't know they were Greyhound because they are plain while.

I hear the D4505's only operate as far north as Portland, based from Los Angeles and Denver garages. The D4505 you saw may very well have been a rebuilt G4500 or the blue H3-45. Also, the 102DL3 only operates as far north as Portland, based from Denver garage. Apprently there are few or none 102DL3's based from Los Angeles.

Please note the rebuitl G4500 looks very similar to a D4505. Are you sure it was a D4505? I mean, there are supposed to be rebuilt G4500's in Seattle, that's why I'm confused.

 

[rickycourtney]

That's interesting. I heard from Keegan on GTE about Greyhound's Seattle garage, he lives in Seattle.

Keegan said that Seattle has received a batch of rebuilt G4500's, while the rest are still in line to be rebuilt. It is unclear how many units are in each batch and how fast the batches are being pumped out. Seattle also received 4 ex-Coach America Phoenix H3-45's, one of them is painted blue and the rest are plain white. You may have seen these going around but you didn't know they were Greyhound because they are plain while.

I hear the D4505's only operate as far north as Portland, based from Los Angeles and Denver garages. The D4505 you saw may very well have been a rebuilt G4500 or the blue H3-45. Also, the 102DL3 only operates as far north as Portland, based from Denver garage. Apprently there are few or none 102DL3's based from Los Angeles.

Please note the rebuitl G4500 looks very similar to a D4505. Are you sure it was a D4505? I mean, there are supposed to be rebuilt G4500's in Seattle, that's why I'm confused.

I'm absolutely positive that this was a D4505. That model has very distinctive LED taillights.

I still have yet to see a rebuilt G4500 and the D4505 coaches are rare. Still mostly just really beat up looking G4500 units.

 

[railiner]

I was surprised to see a rebuilt 'G', number 7027 in The Port, yesterday.....the first one I've noticed. Was too busy to see what trip it was being used on....from my quick glance it looked pretty good, but, well......its still a 'G'........ :unsure:

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

That's interesting. I heard from Keegan on GTE about Greyhound's Seattle garage, he lives in Seattle.

Keegan said that Seattle has received a batch of rebuilt G4500's, while the rest are still in line to be rebuilt. It is unclear how many units are in each batch and how fast the batches are being pumped out. Seattle also received 4 ex-Coach America Phoenix H3-45's, one of them is painted blue and the rest are plain white. You may have seen these going around but you didn't know they were Greyhound because they are plain while.

I hear the D4505's only operate as far north as Portland, based from Los Angeles and Denver garages. The D4505 you saw may very well have been a rebuilt G4500 or the blue H3-45. Also, the 102DL3 only operates as far north as Portland, based from Denver garage. Apprently there are few or none 102DL3's based from Los Angeles.

Please note the rebuitl G4500 looks very similar to a D4505. Are you sure it was a D4505? I mean, there are supposed to be rebuilt G4500's in Seattle, that's why I'm confused.

I'm absolutely positive that this was a D4505. That model has very distinctive LED taillights.

I still have yet to see a rebuilt G4500 and the D4505 coaches are rare. Still mostly just really beat up looking G4500 units.

Hmm, well, the rebuilt G4500 has LED tailights too, so, I don't know.....but if you say it's a D4505, then probably is, considering how often you spotted them in California. The D4505 has black fenders, which the G4500 doesn't, and the G4500 has a dip in the first window, which the D4505 doesn't have.

I was surprised to see a rebuilt 'G', number 7027 in The Port, yesterday.....the first one I've noticed. Was too busy to see what trip it was being used on....from my quick glance it looked pretty good, but, well......its still a 'G'........ :unsure:

7027? I remember linking some pictures here to 7027, which was seen rebuilt back in March 2013.

I know it's still a G4500, but remember, the SDP40F was also rebuilt into SDF40-2's, which apparently ran quite well. It's a rebuild, not a refurb, not an overhaul, so it's supposed to be BIG major changes.

 

[railiner]

Now how does that go....?......."A Dina by any other name, is still a Dina.......

Sorry, but I am too much a skeptic to believe the basic product could ever be improved to what I would consider acceptable....

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Now how does that go....?......."A Dina by any other name, is still a Dina.......

Sorry, but I am too much a skeptic to believe the basic product could ever be improved to what I would consider acceptable....

I understand, my riding experience shows every G4500 is significantly worse than a D or X. I am skeptical too, but I've got hope that they can at least imrpove a lot. That's why I'm curious and eagar to ride a rebuilt G4500 in the near future.

I think the rebuilt G4500 would be somewhat like a J4500, it's still fiberglass junk with a high center of gravity, disappointing reliability, big luggage holds, and an underpowered radiator. That sounds reasonable to me.

 

[rickycourtney]

I'm starting to doubt the existence of a program to rebuild the G4500.

Here's my reasoning:

• With the refurbishment of the 102DL3 both Greyhound and the contractor (ABC Companies) sent out a flurry of press releases. There have been none for a refurbishment of the G4500.

• There have been very few "rebuilt" G4500 coaches spotted in the wild (I couldn't find any pictures on Flickr or Google images). The few we have seen could simply be repaints (not a total rebuild) or wreck repairs.

• If the G4500 is such a lemon with major structural problems... Why would Greyhound invest millions in a rebuild program? They could instead do what they ARE doing... Invest millions refurbishing the better used coaches they own... And buy hundreds of replacement coaches from Prevost & MCI.

Just thinking out loud...

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I'm starting to doubt the existence of a program to rebuild the G4500.

Here's my reasoning:

• With the refurbishment of the 102DL3 both Greyhound and the contractor (ABC Companies) sent out a flurry of press releases. There have been none for a refurbishment of the G4500.

• There have been very few "rebuilt" G4500 coaches spotted in the wild (I couldn't find any pictures on Flickr or Google images). The few we have seen could simply be repaints (not a total rebuild) or wreck repairs.

• If the G4500 is such a lemon with major structural problems... Why would Greyhound invest millions in a rebuild program? They could instead do what they ARE doing... Invest millions refurbishing the better used coaches they own... And buy hundreds of replacement coaches from Prevost & MCI.

Just thinking out loud...

That's what I thought too. For a very long time I thought the G4500 was going to be retired as soon as Greyhound dealt with their fleet shortage and then bought enough extra buses to replace them.

But when I suggested on GTE that Greyhound might just retire them, people insisted that they are getting rebuilt, that Greyhound needs every bus it can get, and that the rebuilds will solve most of the problems.

In fact, someone on GTE posted (a while ago) a night photo of rebuilt #6998 and pointed out that you can see the seating on the inside, and indeed they were the same resurfaced Patriot PT seating as on the rebuilt 102DL3. Unfortunately I cannot find that picture right now.

Then again, #40205 was repainted into the new livery, then had all seats and interior furnishings removed, before being destroyed in The Dark Knight Rises: http://www.imcdb.org/vehicle_518739-MCI-G-4500-2001.html.

But since people on the biggest Greyhound discussion site keep insisting they are getting rebuilt, not retired, I guess they are getting rebuilt. Keegan says there are a batch of rebuilt G4500's in service from Seattle, he's is an old member GTE and his information is usually reliable.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Looking on Greyhound's roster, it looks like they've already retired about 100 G4500's, which would be a third of that fleet. Many of these could be from wrecks and fires, but some of them appears to have been sold in blocks. Not sure what to say about this.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Also, the new Greyhound Canada System Timetable was uploaded today, finally combined bi-directional tables into single documents, eliminating the confusing old system of multi-section timetables for the same schedule.

It will be effective March 9, 2014: http://extranet.greyhound.com/revsup/csked/pageset.html.

Edit: Note the trans-continental schedules are still uni-directional, but the multiple segments have been combined. Now 700 is eastbound and 701 is westbound.

Many schedule numbers have been changed which is getting me very confused. 718 now displays for Vancouver-Osoyoos instead of 701.

 

[rickycourtney]

Looking on Greyhound's roster, it looks like they've already retired about 100 G4500's, which would be a third of that fleet. Many of these could be from wrecks and fires, but some of them appears to have been sold in blocks. Not sure what to say about this.

Well that only adds to my theory that the G4500 are being replaced instead of being rebuilt.

A couple of other things I've also noticed on the Greyhound.com fleet page (which appears to be recently updated):

* 769 102DL3 units are listed instead of 910.

* 291 G4500 units are listed instead of 250.

* On the listing for the 102DL3 it says "This bus model is currently undergoing a major refurbishment" there's no such mention on the G4500 listing.

 

[railiner]

Looking on Greyhound's roster, it looks like they've already retired about 100 G4500's, which would be a third of that fleet. Many of these could be from wrecks and fires, but some of them appears to have been sold in blocks. Not sure what to say about this.

Say...........................THANK YOU!

 

[rickycourtney]

So as soon as I said that... I saw G4500 #7265 in the neoclassic livery in Seattle today. First one I've spotted. But again, I'm rarely by the station here.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I just found out on GTE that the G4500 retirements were done on 30 September 2008. They were going to replace the G4500's with Prevosts but a fleet shortage forced Greyhound to keep them in service.

Now I'm pretty sure the G4500's are actually getting rebuilt. I'm going to the Greyhound temrinal here in Reno today so maybe I can see a rebuilt G4500.

There are only 769 102DL3's remaining in the US fleet because a bunch of them were transferred to Canada.

I don't understand why there are 291 G4500's in the fleet if they used to have only 250. In fact, on Greyhound's roster, I could only count about

200 G4500's after all the retirements and crashes. Also, about 110 G4500's have been involved in accdents of all types, but many were repaired and returned to service. The G4500 surely has the highest accident rate in Greyhound's fleet.

I'm thinking the extra ones include subsidiary units, which were recently merged into Greyhound's fleet. The subsidiaries had about 85 G4500's in total, which, adding to Greyhound's own 200-ish, would be reasonably 291 units.

 

[rickycourtney]

Again, there's a huge difference between fully refurbishing a G4500 and just giving it some fresh paint. I'm curious what's being done to these coaches compared to the 102DL3 (new seats, power outlets, WiFi, refurbished engines.)

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I went to the Greyhound station in Reno and there were three D4505's (86317, 86378, UT86397) and one orignal G4500 (7077). I rode UT86397 from Salt Lake City to Reno last year. I think it's permanentely based around the Intermountain area. Again, no 102DL3's!

Again, there's a huge difference between fully refurbishing a G4500 and just giving it some fresh paint. I'm curious what's being done to these coaches compared to the 102DL3 (new seats, power outlets, WiFi, refurbished engines.)

I know they got new seats, since there are multiple pictures of G4500's with new seats. But it's weird, they have resurfaced Patriot PT seats, the same on the rebuilt 102DL3. Now, the 102DL3 had gotten those seats back in the Elevate Everything refurbs, then they were resurfaced later and had a row removed for legroom. The G4500 never had the orignal Patriot PT seats. I think the removed rows from the 102DL3 and retired MC-12/102D3 units are being put in the G4500.

On GTE, they are reported as "rehabbed", not "refurbished". I'm not sure what "rehab" means in a bus sense.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

OK, a GTE member reported New York-Saint Louis with #6514 and Saint Louis-Kansas City with #6563. So that's where the DL3's went! And they're 6500's too, with original wheelchair lifts.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

What are these "GCA" buses on the roster? They're numbered 90000-90012, with 1FVACWDTxxxxxxxxx VIN's.

Edit: I found out they are cutaway shuttle with a front engine used on some Greyhound Connect services and are painted blue. I've never seen them before but it's good that Greyhound is trying to provide more efficiennt service to rural communities.

Edit: Greyhound has started Friday/Sunday service on the Boston-Brattleboro rural route, stopping at Nashus and Keene. This may be operated with a GCA cutaway. Table 064 in the System Timetable.

Greyhound also introduced, a while earlier, a contract route from Missoula-Whitefish with a cutaway. This will be to the advantage of Amtrak as it allows train passengers to reach southern Montana and further connections to Idaho Falls and Salt Lake City. This one is not in the System Timetable, it appears.

Unfortunately, Greyhound continues to operate G4500-exclusive on the Seattle-Missoula route, while slowly rehabbing them.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Found another picture of a rebuilt G4500: http://www.flickr.com/photos/65359853@N00/12843627224/sizes/c/in/pool-471369@N22/. Finally upgrading Seattle!

I know this is a major rebuild now after comparing to this pic of a blue-repainted G4500: http://www.imcdb.org/i518739.jpg. The repainted one still has a roll sign and bumper lights, plus the number is written higher up on the blue section of the roof cap.

Since the rebuilt G4500 has the bumper lights removed and covered, I believe Greyhound has replaced the rest of that troublesome electircal system and installed an electronic destination sign. Also, since the numbers are in "rebuild" font (more square), not the orignal font of G4500 numbers (narrow), it's a telltale sign that #7137 has been through major work in a shop somewhere.

Another observation of lights seems to show that the rebuilt G4500 has LED's.

 

[rickycourtney]

Found another picture of a rebuilt G4500: http://www.flickr.com/photos/65359853@N00/12843627224/sizes/c/in/pool-471369@N22/. Finally upgrading Seattle!

I wouldn't use that unit from the Batman movie as a baseline for anything... Grehound's shops probably didn't spend a lot of time doing it right... since they were going to destroy it a few days later.

I know this is a major rebuild now after comparing to this pic of a blue-repainted G4500: http://www.imcdb.org/i518739.jpg. The repainted one still has a roll sign and bumper lights, plus the number is written higher up on the blue section of the roof cap.

Since the rebuilt G4500 has the bumper lights removed and covered, I believe Greyhound has replaced the rest of that troublesome electircal system and installed an electronic destination sign. Also, since the numbers are in "rebuild" font (more square), not the orignal font of G4500 numbers (narrow), it's a telltale sign that #7137 has been through major work in a shop somewhere.

Another observation of lights seems to show that the rebuilt G4500 has LED's.

I have no doubt that it's been in a shop for some work but I question how "major" it is.

Painting a vehicle is always a somewhat involved work... it requires the vehicle be taken out of service for several days which is a great time to do other service requirements and upgrades as the vehicle is out of service.

It's clear from these pictures that the coach had Wi-Fi, power outlets and a LED head sign installed (I'm guessing it also has new faux-leather seats, or covers put on the old seats)... from the passenger's perspective that's a huge upgrade. (Remember, the normal passenger isn't as critical about things like the manufacturer, build location, ride quality and the engine, unless something goes wrong.) These are all things that really impress a passenger and could be done by Greyhound, in it's own shops, in a couple of days.

What's not clear is if this is a total rebuild like the 102DL3 units got. Remember ABC is replacing nearly everything on those coaches is inspected, repaired or replaced. The whole process takes 1.5 months and should keep the 102DL3 coaches on the road for another decade.

If the G4500's are such lemons, Greyhound might be just giving them a facelift until new units arrive (remember, Wi-Fi routers, new seats and head signs *could* be removed from these units and transferred to a brand new bus in a few years.)

I guess my question is... has Greyhound decided to rebuild these G4500 units... or are they just putting lipstick on a pig (err, dog).

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Wait, #7137 was not the coach destroyed in Batman, #40205 was the coach destroyed in Batman. #40205 was the coach that still had bumber lights and the old sign after getting repainted. Also, this shot shows that the destroyed #40205 still had the old cloth seats: http://media.comicbookmovie.com/images/users/uploads/20773/XOCJd.jpg.

Looking at #7137, the bumper lights have been removed, and the light on roof cap appear to be LED.

But I think I found something else about these "rebuilt" G4500's. Look at this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/98444414@N08/9440647968/sizes/k/in/photostream/. Scroll down and look at the little openings to the sides of the license plate. You can see the engine compartment inside, and the compenents there appear to be new. The yellow bars and the metal rollers appear very clean, something almost impossible in the unreliable G4500.

If the bus didn't get a major rebuild, then the engine compart would look something like this: http://busesandmore.com/images/2003-E4500-61978/Detroit-Diesel-Engine.jpg. You would not be able to see every bolt clearly on the rollers.

Also compare tailights to this G4500 original: http://www.flickr.com/photos/pfsullivan_1056/10744729133/sizes/k/. The rebuilds have different lights, they look like LED's.

The timeframe for these rebuilds also fit, a large number of G4500's were taken out of service in October 2013 when more D4505's arrived. The first rebuilt G4500's entered service in Seattle during January 2014.

 

[rickycourtney]

Agreed... those are definitely LED taillights and the engine compartment looks clean (but it could simply be that, a cleaning. Not a rebuilt engine.)

Either Greyhound is rebuilding the G4500, hoping to keep them on the road for another decade or simply giving them a nice facelift, with plans to retire them in a few years.

But as I said earlier... at the end of the day it doesn't matter to the customers. So many of the G4500 units are among the worst looking buses Greyhound owns (I present this photo you took as evidence: http://www.flickr.com/photos/95851032@N07/9944614706/ The plain white baggage door and warped side panels are a nice touch :blink: ). The faster Greyhound can paint these coaches in the neoclassic livery... the better!

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Agreed... those are definitely LED taillights and the engine compartment looks clean (but it could simply be that, a cleaning. Not a rebuilt engine.)

Either Greyhound is rebuilding the G4500, hoping to keep them on the road for another decade or simply giving them a nice facelift, with plans to retire them in a few years.

But as I said earlier... at the end of the day it doesn't matter to the customers. So many of the G4500 units are among the worst looking buses Greyhound owns (I present this photo you took as evidence: http://www.flickr.com/photos/95851032@N07/9944614706/ The plain white baggage door and warped side panels are a nice touch :blink: ). The faster Greyhound can paint these coaches in the neoclassic livery... the better!

You haven't been up close to G4500 huh? It smells horrible! The odor from that coach smells different from any other Greyhound coach, in fact it probably kicked off the term "stinking Greyhound". They can repaint the bus and clean it, but sonner or later that odor is going to come back unless they replace the faulty lavatories and air conditioning.

It does really matter to me, that odor is so bad at the front that sometimes I have to hold my nostrils together when passing through the front section. I don't know why it's always worst at the front, since the lavatory is at the back. Maybe it's coming out that big air vent in the front.

 

[rickycourtney]

You haven't been up close to G4500 huh? It smells horrible! The odor from that coach smells different from any other Greyhound coach, in fact it probably kicked off the term "stinking Greyhound". They can repaint the bus and clean it, but sonner or later that odor is going to come back unless they replace the faulty lavatories and air conditioning.

It does really matter to me, that odor is so bad at the front that sometimes I have to hold my nostrils together when passing through the front section. I don't know why it's always worst at the front, since the lavatory is at the back. Maybe it's coming out that big air vent in the front.

Haha. No I've never been that close to one. That's horrible and a reason to hate that bus model. Sounds like the air intake is too close to the lav.

Back in my California days I only encountered one bus with a stinky lav. But I think that was less about the model (one of the older Van Hool's) and more that someone probably forgot to pump the tank the prior night and it had been over used.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

You haven't been up close to G4500 huh? It smells horrible! The odor from that coach smells different from any other Greyhound coach, in fact it probably kicked off the term "stinking Greyhound". They can repaint the bus and clean it, but sonner or later that odor is going to come back unless they replace the faulty lavatories and air conditioning.

It does really matter to me, that odor is so bad at the front that sometimes I have to hold my nostrils together when passing through the front section. I don't know why it's always worst at the front, since the lavatory is at the back. Maybe it's coming out that big air vent in the front.

Haha. No I've never been that close to one. That's horrible and a reason to hate that bus model. Sounds like the air intake is too close to the lav.

Back in my California days I only encountered one bus with a stinky lav. But I think that was less about the model (one of the older Van Hool's) and more that someone probably forgot to pump the tank the prior night and it had been over used.

Weird thing is, when I pass through the front, it smells different than the lavatory at the rear. The front smells like burning rubber, the rear smells like human excrement mixed with detergent. The burning rubber on some of them smells so bad that you cannot avoid gagging, then you fight to avoid vomiting on the aisle.

I hear plenty of stories from people saying they vomited in a G4500. One review said he left the bus at a stop because he couldn't bear the smell, then ended up hitchiking.