Greyhound seats and fleet questions

[Swadian Hardcore]

That rear window is bad because it greatly restricts the space available for the radiator. Setras have much smaller radiators than MCI D's. Small radiators are terrible for intercity use. And no good driver would want to be separated from his passengers, being separated means he doesn't care about them. If they are messing around and causing trouble, the driver wouldn't know. And if the driver has a heart attack, passengers won't see. Only self-centered drivers who treat passengers as "the enemy" would want to be separated from his passengers, his passengers are the reason why he's driving the bus, even if they are smelly and poor, he must not be separated from them by anything more than a small polycarbonate gate.

Also, Setra's pathetic weak fenders are also terrible for intercity work. They cannot exceed 1,000,000 miles, a DL3 can exceed 2,000,000 miles and more. The DL3 has one Achilles' Heel: maneuverability. Maneuverability does not matter much for Greyhound's highway routes. So the DL3 is the Ultimate Intercity Bus, anything that beats it on one aspect will be crushed by the other aspects. And anything that cannot run at least 1,500,000 miles will not even come close, that includes the Setra. If you do not consider mileage life as part of your $500,000 investment, then you are one dumb bus operator, JetSet.

If any of you want to say something other than the MCI 102DL3 is the Ultimate Intercity Bus, show me something with at least 1,500,000 miles on it and still going strong. I know other MCI's and Prevost's have done that well, but I haven't seen such from any other manufacturer. Then Greyhound will take notice, and I will surely take notice if Greyhound orders it. If it can't run that many miles, then it's junk.

And I'm not even talking about the aspects other than mileage right now. Since, with 6.79 mpg highway, as official government tests have proven, the 102DL3 is one efficient bus as well.

Even the average G4500 has run 1,200,000 miles, though not "going strong" by any means.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

I guess you missed the part where I said, certain buses work better in certain parts of the country. That's fine as I understand. It's also difficult to know how a fleet of buses will perform, when the fleet is still newer. The Setras in their fleet don't appear to be too old, so I would wait another five or so years, before we can judge them.

Older Setras from the 1980s have been in use before. I'm not sure how they performed compared to the S 407 or S 417. As far as the ultimate intercity bus, that title belongs to the MC-9, IMO. I've seen transit buses with over 1, 500,000 miles. Any bus can be made to run that many miles, it just depends on the maintenance cycle of the coaches themselves.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I disagree, the MC-9 is overrated. Greyhound's 1984 MC-9's were retired in 1999. Back then the average Greyhound ran 100,000 miles a year. That means 1,500,000 miles. Hardly spectacular. A few were kept in the spare fleet until 2001, AFAIK. But the spare fleet runs very few miles. MC-12 is even more overrated. Some 1993 MC-12's were retired in 2005.12 years in service, probably about 1,400,000 miles.

You are conveniently avoiding the radiator, fender, high center-of-gravity, and driver separation issues of the Setra.

And the Ultimate Intercity Bus goes uphill on Interstates at 45 mph? And guzzles diesel with a two-stroke engine? That's how the MC-9 performed.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The assumption that the radiator must be placed where the rear window is is somewhat silly. Frankly, if I was designing a bus the radiator would be located longitudinally over the surface of the roof, in aerodynamic cooling fins, eliminating the need for a cooling fan. Knowing Mercedes engineering culture as I do, I'd assume they discarded the placement of a lot of heavy fluid high up to improve stability.

Your statement about their fenders requires a lot more explaining then simply calling them fenders and deeming them weak. Fenders are a largely cosmetic covering. Their weakness would be irrelevant, since they bear no weight. I assume you are actually talking about something else.

I have not seen any indication they have a higher center of gravity.

You have to realize that for any given problem there is more than one solution. For example, let's say I want to generate 270 horsepower in a mid size family sedan. Ford, Hyundai, Chevrolet, and KIA us turbocharged straight fours. Volvo uses a turbocharged straight five. Toyota, Chrysler, Honda, and Volkswagen use naturally aspirated V6 engines. Subaru uses a naturally aspirated FLAT 6.

Each choice has it's advantages and disadvantages. The Turbo 4 is expensive, and is less durable, but offers improved economy under light loads- and worse economy under heavy loads. The straight five offers a compromise between the low durability of a 4 and the bad fuel economy of a V6. The V6 is cheaper and more durable, but not as economical. The Flat 6 is extremely durable, much smoother, provides superior handling due to its low center of gravity, allows for a longitudinal installation, but is heavy on fuel usage.

None of these solutions is "wrong". They just are made differently.

Same thing with a bus.

 

[rickycourtney]

The other thing to understand here is that there are really two types of motorcoaches, line-haul and charter.

Taking Setra out of this for a moment lets look at the two manufacturers Greyhound uses MCI and Prevost... both make line-haul coaches (the D4505 and the X3-45) and both make charter coaches (the J4500 and the H3-45). This is a change from a few decades ago when most companies made just line-haul buses and charter operators bought them used.

Greyhound has been buying line-haul coaches from both companies almost as fast as they can roll off the assembly line... and despite a few qualms you seem to think the D4505 and the X3-45 are okay but you dismiss the charter buses as total crap.

I argue that you're not looking at this the right way... yes charter buses aren't the right choice for line-haul services... but line-haul coaches (like the 102-DL3) aren't what charter operators want.

Charter bus companies want a bus that looks modern and has a lot of bells and whistles to attract customers. Unlike Greyhound, these buses tend to run short routes, on weekends, with people who often have little or no luggage. These companies also tend to operate the buses for a few years and retire them when they start looking "old" so they want them to be affordable.

That's the polar opposite of what Greyhound wants in a bus... but does that make them crap? No. It just means they're meant for another type of service.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

And now that Mercedes has allowed their logo to be placed on Setra busses, that makes them even more desirable for charter. Let's face it, customers on charter busses like the idea of riding in a Mercedes.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

I disagree, the MC-9 is overrated. Greyhound's 1984 MC-9's were retired in 1999. Back then the average Greyhound ran 100,000 miles a year. That means 1,500,000 miles. Hardly spectacular. A few were kept in the spare fleet until 2001, AFAIK. But the spare fleet runs very few miles. MC-12 is even more overrated. Some 1993 MC-12's were retired in 2005.12 years in service, probably about 1,400,000 miles.

You are conveniently avoiding the radiator, fender, high center-of-gravity, and driver separation issues of the Setra.

And the Ultimate Intercity Bus goes uphill on Interstates at 45 mph? And guzzles diesel with a two-stroke engine? That's how the MC-9 performed.

The younger MC-9s were retired, but the older ones that were rebuilt and renumbered in the 5000s series kept running up until 2001. As far as overrated goes, the G Series takes the cake on that. Not only are they overrated, they're garbage.

It's no wonder why Greyhound turned to Prevost for coaches. The reason Greyhound choose the MC-12s, was because they didn't like the A series models and the MC-12 was pretty much a spinoff to the MC-9s. Also, the MC-12s were retired likely because they didn't have wheelchair lifts in them.

Now as for Setras, rickycourtney said it best. Very few companies around here prefer 102-DL3s or line haul coaches. I've seen some, but not a lot with these charter companies. That's probably why Van Hools are the king around here, with Setras also being here.

 

[railiner]

. That's probably why Van Hools are the king around here

,

$$$............

 

[railiner]

That's interesting, because I was talking to an NJ based Academy driver the other day, and he drives both NJT MCIs and Setras, and he said that he vastly prefers the Setra for its superior ride, better maneuverability, and better separation from passengers.

It could be that the Setra's have a fraction of the mileage, and easier use than Academy's NJT-owned commuter MCI's have... I will concede that the Setra's have a tighter turning radius than the MCI's do. I don't know about the claim of better separation from the passenger's.....

I will ask some more driver's for their opinions that have driven both, when I return to work this week, and report back with their comments....

 

[railiner]

It's no wonder why Greyhound turned to Prevost for coaches. The reason Greyhound choose the MC-12s, was because they didn't like the A series models and the MC-12 was pretty much a spinoff to the MC-9s. Also, the MC-12s were retired likely because they didn't have wheelchair lifts in them.

One reason that Greyhound turned to Prevost, was because they waited too long to acquire lift-buses, and MCI couldn't build them fast enough to meet Greyhound's demand in time for the ADA compliance deadline......

 

[railiner]

And now that Mercedes has allowed their logo to be placed on Setra busses, that makes them even more desirable for charter. Let's face it, customers on charter busses like the idea of riding in a Mercedes.

Have to agree with that....nothing like "badge-engineering".....which "Sprinter" van is most desireable? The one with 'Dodge Ram', 'Freightliner', or Mercedes (logo) on the hood?

As for the relationship with Setra (formerly Kassbohrer-Setra) and Mercedes, I wonder what (if any) synergy exists between the two, other than Daimler purchasing Setra, a few years ago? Mercedes did try to market their own line of coaches here in the late 1960's, most notably the "O-302", and it was a market flop....Even their engines....case in point, the two prototype Greyhound MC-6X's built in 1967. 4599 had a Detroit Diesel 12v71, and 4598 had the most powerful available Mercedes 8...The Mercedes spent most of the three month trial on the New York - Chicago non-stop schedule in the shop. At the end of the trial, the Mercedes engine was replaced with a DD 12v71, as were the 100 production models that were built in 1969.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Sprinters are Mercedes vans. Their other badging was an attempt not to dilute the luxury car brand here. Setra has been a Daimler brand for longer than the current models have been in it. Infact, it is mostly now Mercedes branding for their busses, just like Freughtliner are Americanized Mercedes trucks.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

NOTE: My quoting function appears broken on this new PC. Please excuse me when I use screen names.

Ricky, I actually meant just that. I didn't mean that charter coaches are crap, I said they are crap for Greyhound, because they are not line-haul coaches. I was responding to "THE CJ" who said Greyhound should order Setras, which is not a line-haul bus. It seems that people misunderstood me, I'm saying that Greyhound should not buy Setras. I'm not saying Setras are crap for charter work, but we are discussing in the frame of a Greyhound thread, and Setra is not fit for Greyhound by the longest stretch.

Go back and look at post #589, where "THE CJ" said Greyhound should buy Setras. My immediate response, in post #590, was that Greyhound already tested and rejected Setra's. Also look at post #601, when I repeated mentioned "intercity bus", I believe that to be a generic substitute for "line-haul bus", because most people cannot understand "line-haul bus". I have never mentioned charters in this discussion about Setras. So when I say Setras are junk, I'm saying they are junk as "intercity buses", and thus junk for Greyhound.

CJ, which year of MC-9's was rebuilt and stayed until 2001? Even if they were 1979 MC-9's, the first year that model was made, with the cutoff roof caps, that would've made 2,200,000 miles. I do know that after the 102DL3 entered service, all the MC-9's and 102A3's were relegated to extra sections. So I don't think any Greyhound MC-9 ever beat 2,200,000 miles. That's very good, but not still not spectacular, considering the Greyhound has DL3's right now with 2,000,000 miles and no retirement in sight.

Also, I believe you are mistaken with the MC-12. According to Greyhound drivers, it actually has more in common with the 96A3 than the MC-9. It is a 96A3 up to the sidewalls and a MC-9 above from there. The MC-12 had 96A3 headlights and HVAC unit, but MC-9 dashboard and MC-9 windows. And the G4500 is not overrated, everyone at Greyhound hates it, passengers hate it, bus fans hate it, how is that overrated? You could call the J4500 overrated, since drivers tend to prefer the H3-45.

If the MC-12 was that great of a bus, how come it was ADA-incompliant? Such an illegal bus cannot be good. Not to mention the slow speed and narrow width. Try riding overnight in a MC-12 then overnight in a 102DL3.

As for Setras, of course they have a much smaller turning circle than the 102DL3. The 102DL3 with locked tag axle is probably the least maneuverable bus in service. As I said, that's the Achilles' Heel of the 102DL3, the HUMONGOUS turning circle, which doesn't matter for Greyhound's highway running but it's terrible for charters.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Railiner, you asked about Greyhound Canada trucks, they are indeed full sized tractor-trailers. I found a video of it but can't link it for some reason. No idea about the driver. Greyhound Coquitlam is the freight transfer stop for Vancouver, that's why every bus east out of Vancouver stops in Coquitlam, with a few exceptions.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

As for the year of which Greyhound MC-9s were rebuilt, that I have not discovered the information for. Some people seem to think those G series are good. Not to Greyhound they were. You can make an older coach ADA compliant.

Several companies around here have retrofitted MC-9s (and even MC-8s) with wheelchair lifts to make them ADA compliant. That explains why I still see those older coaches still around.

Also, I've ridden only MC-9s and MC-12s for Greyhound. I recalled riding one A Series bus. I've done overnight trips with the MC-12s many times before. They were far from slow I'll tell you that much.

Never rode on a D series bus. MC-9, MC-12, and 102A3 are the only MCI coaches I've been on. Never rode on anything else after those. I've ridden Van Hool T2145s and C2045s besides the MCIs.

Also, not every bus puts on the same mileage each year. Mileage can vary for all buses, depending on what routes they travel and so forth. I've seen some buses with higher mileage compared to the same models in the fleet.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

The MC-12 could easily go 65 mph, that was not slow perhaps, but when going uphill they would quickly drop down to 45 mph or less. The DL3 can climb hills at 75 mph, given it's an Interstate-grade highway, the best speed consistency of the OTRB's. I rode one going up Golconda on I-80 at 75 mph, passed three trucks in row. Then again, it's terrible for charters, with that huge turning circle.

And the fuel efficiency of that bus easily beats the MC-9 or MC-12.

 

[rickycourtney]

Hey Marcelo/THE CJ- what's your connection to Jet Set? Do you work for them or is it just your local charter operator?

I've seen the Setra S 407 and taken a few rides on the Van Hool C2045. I think the Van Hool was a perfectly fine coach but nothing special. The Setra is really a very good looking coach with lots of curb appeal. Looking at photos of the Setra my biggest complaint is that they have an absolutely anemic overhead parcel rack that seemingly has no way to make sure that items stay on the rack while the bus is in motion. Personally I prefer enclosed airline style luggage racks. They compromise a little storage capacity but it's a much cleaner look.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Hey Marcelo/THE CJ- what's your connection to Jet Set? Do you work for them or is it just your local charter operator?

I've seen the Setra S 407 and taken a few rides on the Van Hool C2045. I think the Van Hool was a perfectly fine coach but nothing special. The Setra is really a very good looking coach with lots of curb appeal. Looking at photos of the Setra my biggest complaint is that they have an absolutely anemic overhead parcel rack that seemingly has no way to make sure that items stay on the rack while the bus is in motion. Personally I prefer enclosed airline style luggage racks. They compromise a little storage capacity but it's a much cleaner look.

Oh that's not my video, it's someone else's. JetSet is one of several local charters in the Orlando area. They do runs between Orlando, Kissimmee, and Miami. It's not expensive either. They have a trip to Miami for $23 or $46 roundtrip. Here is their site.

http://www.jetsetusa.com/

 

[railiner]

That's interesting, because I was talking to an NJ based Academy driver the other day, and he drives both NJT MCIs and Setras, and he said that he vastly prefers the Setra for its superior ride, better maneuverability, and better separation from passengers.

It could be that the Setra's have a fraction of the mileage, and easier use than Academy's NJT-owned commuter MCI's have... I will concede that the Setra's have a tighter turning radius than the MCI's do. I don't know about the claim of better separation from the passenger's.....

I will ask some more driver's for their opinions that have driven both, when I return to work this week, and report back with their comments....

Okay, I did poll a few Martz driver's today, that had experience in both types, and it was pretty even.....4 preferred the MCI's, and 3 the Setra's.

As for why Martz went back to all MCI purchases, I was told that MCI "made them an offer, they couldn't refuse"....($$$)......

If I get a chance, I'll poll some Academy driver's tomorrow......

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Reading up information on the all time roster for Greyhound, many 102A3s were retired in 1991, before or around the same time the MC-8s being retired. Heard the reason they were retired early was because of frame issues. They likely costed more money to maintain, due to those frame issues as well. Most of the units retired in 1991 were the ones built between 1987-1988 (numbered 1865-1899, 2000-2324).

It was mostly the ones numbered 2000-2324 that went out in 1991. The rest of the units were slowly retired. The ones left prior to retiring in 2004 were numbered 1524-1803, with 1803 being retrofitted with a wheelchair lift.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Wonder how the Prevost X3-45s are compared to the D4505s. Since we could be getting Prevost commuter coaches soon, I might as well ask about the X3-45s.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I'm sure the next NJT highway cruisers will be from American Ikarus, because NJT is morally posses to buying from American manufacturers.

 

[railiner]

Wonder how the Prevost X3-45s are compared to the D4505s. Since we could be getting Prevost commuter coaches soon, I might as well ask about the X3-45s.

I personally prefer the Prevost. It has the best ride in the business, and handles better, as well.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

My opinion: 102DL3/102D3, original D4500/D4000>D4500CL/CT or D4000CT>102A3>X3-45>96A3=MC-12>MC-7/8/9>D4505>H3-41/45>>>E/J4500>>>>>>>>>>G4500 or C2045>>>>T2145>>S-407>S-417>Viaggio>>>TD925>Irizar, Scania, Mercedes, etc.

I thought Eagle had the best ride with their Torsilastic suspension, but harder to maintain and less durable than MCI. Prevost's suspension is still less durable than MCI.

MCI 102DL3: Very good or good at everything except handling.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Mercedes builds the best road vehicles in the world. Period, end of discussion. The second best is debatable.