Greyhound seats and fleet questions

[rickycourtney]

Oh I forgot to mention... while in Southern California I saw an Americanos bus... that has now taken my prize for "worst G4500."

Here's the highlights:

• One of the baggage doors was being held shut with duct tape... no joke... grey duct tape.
• Several of the body panels had been replaced... leaving them blank (so there was just a big white gap in the livery.)
• A big haze of black smoke kept pouring out of the back of the bus each time the driver hit the accelerator.
• But here's the best part... when I drove by the bus the first time the engine door was slightly open and I thought it might have been tied down. But as I exited the freeway I saw the bus drive past and the engine door was fully up.

Pretty shameful that Greyhound let a bus this bad out onto the roadways (even if it doesn't say Greyhound on the side).

 

[Bob Dylan]

Sounds like the old days in Mexico to me! That bus would have been "Delujo Clase" as opposed to Primers Clase, Segundo Clase or the Pollo Autobuses!

 

[Caesar La Rock]

The Eagle's, as Swadian has mentioned, did have a wonderful ride...they employed the B F Goodrich "Torsilastic" suspension. Here's a link http://www.giantrvonline.com/chassis/velvet_ride.htm with a description of it. This suspension had a huge amount of travel, and you could roll over a pothole and barely be aware of it. The shock absorber's did have to be replaced when worn, or the coach would bounce excessively. the Eagle could take curves almost like a sports car.. Prior to the Eagle, Flxible highway coaches also employed this suspension. Continental Trailways had a large fleet of Flxible VistaLiner's and HiLevel's, and they liked the suspension so much, that they specified it when their engineers designed the Eagle's built at first by Kassbohrer-Setra in Germany.

Another nice feature of the suspension, was unlike an air-ride, the coach, as it aged, did not develop air leaks and consequently bottom-out when shut down overnight and take several minutes of running to rise back to running height...

That's very interesting stuff on Eagles. As for the Flxibles, I've heard of those highway coaches having the same suspension.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

There is some things to keep in mind. For starters, Greyhound's bus fleet today is a shadow of it's former self. Greyhound's fleet isn't even half of what it was back 20+ years ago. The 102-DL3s represent half the fleet, while the other half is a mix of D4505s, G4500s, and Prevost X3-45s.

That's pretty much what I have to say about the subject on why the DL3s are still running for Greyhound versus past coaches like MC-7/8/9/12s and 102A3s. Also, I can bet the mileage on some coaches weren't the same back then either.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Who told you I have never been on a X3-45? I've actually been on two. One on Adirondack Trailways, Railiner's company, from Montreal to New York, and one on Greyhound, from Philadelphia to New York.

Also, the 102DL3 has the most interior height in the industry, 82", the X3-45 has 80", the D4505 at 78.25". I have the spec sheets to back that up, so don't even try to challenge it.

And as for EPA, how the hell is a bus supposed to be cleaner when it uses more fuel? Sure, maybe there's less emissions, but the long-term environmental impact is that you used more of a limited, unrenewable resource: diesel. So, the D4505 is crap. The X3-45 is not crap. The 102DL3 is not crap.

Ricky, I have taken all the bus models in discussion right now. You have not taken the 102DL3, I presume. You have never taken Greyhound. So you are not in the position to say that the 102DL3 is worse than the X3-45, especially when multiple Greyhound drivers have told me it is "undoubtedly" superior, both to the X3-45 and the D4505, due to its unmatched 30-year/3,000,000-mile service life, and ease of maintenance.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

If I were to add from a passenger perspective, I do find the 102DL3 the best as well, which is why it is my favorite bus. The spacious interior (82x102") gives it a "train feel" that none of the newer buses have. Also, it has a quieter HVAC than the newer buses. And it does not tilt as much as the D4505, much better for sleeping, seems to "sit on the road" very well. Lastly, the 102DL3 has the best seats, most recline (55-degree actual measurement), and most legroom (16") of all the Greyhound coaches.

Now you ask, how come the 102DL3 has more legroom than the D4505? Because the 102DL3 has recurve seat backs, while the D4505 has flat seat backs, like Amtrak seat backs.

Also, you ask, how comes those Patriot PT's in the DL3 recline so much? I don't know exactly why, but multiple actual measurements indeed show 55 degrees of recline.

As for a technical aspect, the 102DL3 has the biggest air intake and dual fans, so you can get more air in and get hot air out, always good for any engine. The result is that the 102DL3 is the fastest Greyhound and possibly the fastest 45-footer bus on the road.

Got any more to say?

Edit: Frankly, Ricky, "a tall guy like you" should be the one supporting the 102DL3, while perhaps a "below average height" guy like me should be supporting another model. This feels weird.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

We aren't arguing your preference. We are arguing your 'my preference is I refutable fact' stance.

 

[railiner]

Who told you I have never been on a X3-45? I've actually been on two. One on Adirondack Trailways, Railiner's company, from Montreal to New York, and one on Greyhound, from Philadelphia to New York.

Just a minor correction, Swadian....We do not have X3-45's in any of the Trailways of New York fleets. We have the predecessor model, the XL-II......

 

[rickycourtney]

Who told you I have never been on a X3-45? I've actually been on two. One on Adirondack Trailways, Railiner's company, from Montreal to New York, and one on Greyhound, from Philadelphia to New York.

I stand corrected. My apologies.

Also, the 102DL3 has the most interior height in the industry, 82", the X3-45 has 80", the D4505 at 78.25". I have the spec sheets to back that up, so don't even try to challenge it.

Sure. I'd love to see them. How the hell did the 102DL3 have 4" more headroom... smaller baggage compartments?

And as for EPA, how the hell is a bus supposed to be cleaner when it uses more fuel? Sure, maybe there's less emissions, but the long-term environmental impact is that you used more of a limited, unrenewable resource: diesel. So, the D4505 is crap. The X3-45 is not crap. The 102DL3 is not crap.

As I understand it... because the emissions systems "choke" the engine, they need to work harder to make the same amount of energy.
As an aside, King County Metro bought a bunch of hybrid buses right after the 2004 requirement went into effect. The hybrid buses with the 2004 engines turned out to be just as fuel hungry as the pre-2004 buses. Here's an interesting article on the problem.

Ricky, I have taken all the bus models in discussion right now. You have not taken the 102DL3, I presume. You have never taken Greyhound. So you are not in the position to say that the 102DL3 is worse than the X3-45, especially when multiple Greyhound drivers have told me it is "undoubtedly" superior, both to the X3-45 and the D4505, due to its unmatched 30-year/3,000,000-mile service life, and ease of maintenance.

Wrong. I have taken several 102DL3's and while I have not taken a bus with Greyhound painted on the side... I've taken plenty of intercity buses including ones operated by Greyhound, using buses maintained by Greyhound and driven by Greyhound... I fail to see what could possibly be different (except the passengers inside.)
Also, I never said "102DL3 is worse than the X3-45" as a matter of fact I think they're both solid buses (I also happen to think the D4505 is a solid bus too... and I agree the G4500 and C2045 are mostly crap.)

If I were to add from a passenger perspective, I do find the 102DL3 the best as well, which is why it is my favorite bus. The spacious interior (82x102") gives it a "train feel" that none of the newer buses have.

For comparison an Amfleet car is 100x126"... so it's significantly smaller than a train car.

Also, it has a quieter HVAC than the newer buses. And it does not tilt as much as the D4505, much better for sleeping, seems to "sit on the road" very well. Lastly, the 102DL3 has the best seats, most recline (55-degree actual measurement), and most legroom (16") of all the Greyhound coaches.

Now you ask, how come the 102DL3 has more legroom than the D4505? Because the 102DL3 has recurve seat backs, while the D4505 has flat seat backs, like Amtrak seat backs.

Also, you ask, how comes those Patriot PT's in the DL3 recline so much? I don't know exactly why, but multiple actual measurements indeed show 55 degrees of recline.

I understand this is a thread on Greyhound... but you do realize that the seats are purchased separately from the bus, right? Greyhound made the decision to buy the Premier seats and they have made the decision to keep buying them. They could have easily switched back to Amaya's newer seats the Torino or the A-2TEN both of which I think are vastly more comfortable (on par with the Patriot) and both have seatbelts (which the Patriot does not).

As for a technical aspect, the 102DL3 has the biggest air intake and dual fans, so you can get more air in and get hot air out, always good for any engine. The result is that the 102DL3 is the fastest Greyhound and possibly the fastest 45-footer bus on the road.

Well it certainly has a massive engine grille in the back... there's no denying that... but for the record the D4505 also has dual radiator fans.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Wonder how the J4500s are compared to the D4505 or 102DL3? Lynx has a J4500 demo. It's a 2014 demo and for once it's not owned by someone other then MCI themselves.

 

[rickycourtney]

Wonder how the J4500s are compared to the D4505 or 102DL3? Lynx has a J4500 demo. It's a 2014 demo and for once it's not owned by someone other then MCI themselves.

Well first off it's worth noting that the J4500 is the best-selling motorcoach in America.

That being said... it's really designed for use by charter operators, not for commuter services operated by a public transit agency.

Something to understand... both MCI and Prevost make two different models of their motorcoaches.

One designed for the tour/charter market (MCI's J series and Prevost's H series) that tend to have a more modern design and more features (TV's, iPod hookups, wireless microphones for a tour guide).

The other model is designed for the line-haul market (MCI's D series and Prevost's X series) that tend to be more durable in heavy service.

Both companies offer specialized versions of these buses (the D4500CT/D4000CT and the X3-45 Commuter Coach) for the commuter/transit market that have a few tweaks that make them better on routes that make several stops in a central business district (larger destination signs, bi-parting entrance doors).

Does that mean that a transit agency can't use a J4500 on a commuter route? No. But there are better choices.

As far as the 102DL3... that specific model isn't being produced anymore (the D4500CT is a very close cousin) so it's a moot point arguing for it.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I'll explain why the 102DL3 is my favorite bus later. Don't have the time right now. Sorry about saying that you have never ridden a 102DL3. But the current D4505 does not have dual radiator fans, it has a single radiator fan. At least Greyhound's version does, I saw it once with the hatches open. It's a big fan but without a big grille you basically defeated the purpose. The original D4505 did have the same air intake as the 102DL3.

Anyway, Greyhound's D4505 rides far worse than the 102DL3. Don't know why, it just tilts like crazy. I looked through Amaya's sales brochures and the Patriot PT/Torino VIP are both available with seats belts. Both these seats are better than the A2-TEN or Torino Standard, IMO, but feel free to disagree.

Since I don't like Amtrak it's kinda pointless to compare, but I just said the 102DL3 is a suitable substitute for an Amtrak train. So I would pay the same price to ride either, and the difference would come down to schedules and timing. We've argued about that already, let's just not argue more.

Why don't I like the D4505? Tilts too much for one, loud HVAC for two, high fuel consumption for three, and slow speed for last. Again, things I've said before. However, I really like the D4500CL/CT, almost as smooth as a X3-45 but it's got the 3,000,000-mile lifetime just like the 102DL3 or MC-9. Prevost hardcore fan Derek (co-host of GTE) told me that Prevost's top out at 1,500,000 miles active duty. Remember, I've not even a MCI hardcore fan anymore, I've bashing the D4505 and J4500 all the time.

If MCI hadn't raised the deck of the D4500 for the D4505, it wouldn't tilt so much, but would have less luggage capacity. Or they could extend the wheelbase, but the D already turns like a battleship. The D has a very strong suspension, much stronger than any other bus, but it turns very poorly. Can't have the best of both.

I've found out why Greyhound ordered the D4505: it lasts longer than the X3-45. The X3-45 is solid, even very solid, just not 30-year/3-million-mile solid, it's not platform integral semi-monocoque (PISM). Not saying the D4505 is better, just saying it does have an advantage that keep it in the market: durability and ease of maintenance. Heard directly from mechanics.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Wonder how the J4500s are compared to the D4505 or 102DL3? Lynx has a J4500 demo. It's a 2014 demo and for once it's not owned by someone other then MCI themselves.

Well first off it's worth noting that the J4500 is the best-selling motorcoach in America.

That being said... it's really designed for use by charter operators, not for commuter services operated by a public transit agency.

Something to understand... both MCI and Prevost make two different models of their motorcoaches.

One designed for the tour/charter market (MCI's J series and Prevost's H series) that tend to have a more modern design and more features (TV's, iPod hookups, wireless microphones for a tour guide).

The other model is designed for the line-haul market (MCI's D series and Prevost's X series) that tend to be more durable in heavy service.

Both companies offer specialized versions of these buses (the D4500CT/D4000CT and the X3-45 Commuter Coach) for the commuter/transit market that have a few tweaks that make them better on routes that make several stops in a central business district (larger destination signs, bi-parting entrance doors).

Does that mean that a transit agency can't use a J4500 on a commuter route? No. But there are better choices.

As far as the 102DL3... that specific model isn't being produced anymore (the D4500CT is a very close cousin) so it's a moot point arguing for it.

Understood. The J4500s are being considered for a specific route that only makes two stops and mostly uses the Turnpike. As for the motorcoaches we're getting, they're going to be diesel D4500CTs with ISX engines.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Ricky, I just found out the X3-45 you spotted in So Cal was probably an Americanos X3-45. They are painted the exact same as the Greyhound X3-45's except for lettering. Americanos got X3-45's to replace their beat-up Marcopolo and Dina buses, presumably including the G4500. Those X3-45's are based from Los Angeles, El Paso, and Dallas, I believe, with 60500-series numbers and they don't have Greyhound's tags or "TEXAS APPORTIONED" license plates.

Edit: By the way, I am blocking GML and CJ so I will not respond to them and I will not see their posts. Please don't quote them.

 

[rickycourtney]

Understood. The J4500s are being considered for a specific route that only makes two stops and mostly uses the Turnpike. As for the motorcoaches we're getting, they're going to be diesel D4500CTs with ISX engines.

Huh. That's strange. I guess the J4500 could work on that... but again I don't think it would be ideal in daily service like that.

Do you know why they wouldn't just use one of the D4500CT motorcoaches? I would think it would be easier to run a uniform fleet.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Understood. The J4500s are being considered for a specific route that only makes two stops and mostly uses the Turnpike. As for the motorcoaches we're getting, they're going to be diesel D4500CTs with ISX engines.

Huh. That's strange. I guess the J4500 could work on that... but again I don't think it would be ideal in daily service like that.

Do you know why they wouldn't just use one of the D4500CT motorcoaches? I would think it would be easier to run a uniform fleet.

I have a feeling it has to do with the fact they want the coaches with lavatories for that route. I don't know if commuter coaches can be spec'd with lavatories, but that's all I know. The J4500s are also being leased to Lynx for a few years, but Mears will be operating those coaches.

 

[rickycourtney]

I have a feeling it has to do with the fact they want the coaches with lavatories for that route. I don't know if commuter coaches can be spec'd with lavatories, but that's all I know. The J4500s are also being leased to Lynx for a few years, but Mears will be operating those coaches.

Yeah you can order the D4500CT/D4000CT with a lavatory.

The way you describe the situation... do you know if Mears may actually be leasing the coaches themselves as a part of the contract? That's pretty normal in the transportation industry.

 

[rickycourtney]

I'll explain why the 102DL3 is my favorite bus later. Don't have the time right now. Sorry about saying that you have never ridden a 102DL3.

Don't worry. We all know why it's your favorite bus... no need to explain again.

But the current D4505 does not have dual radiator fans, it has a single radiator fan. At least Greyhound's version does, I saw it once with the hatches open. It's a big fan but without a big grille you basically defeated the purpose. The original D4505 did have the same air intake as the 102DL3.

Here's a shot of a D4505 showing the dual radiator fans. One is definitely bigger than the other, but there are two fans.

I looked through Amaya's sales brochures and the Patriot PT/Torino VIP are both available with seats belts. Both these seats are better than the A2-TEN or Torino Standard, IMO, but feel free to disagree.

The seatbelts offered for the Patriot are the bolt on, lap belt type. The new FMVSS rules require lap and shoulder belts on all motorcoaches built after 2016. Unless the Patriot can be modified to have lap and shoulder belts... it won't be used in new US coaches anymore. Honestly I don't think it will since the Torino standard is a VERY similar seat except that it has an optional integral lap and shoulder belt and an adjustable headrest (which is an additional cost option on the Patriot.)

Don't get me wrong... I think the Patriot is a great seat, I just think that the A2-TEN and the Torino are great seats too. Frankly, all three of those seats are a heck of a lot more comfortable than the Premier LS Greyhound has been buying.

Why don't I like the D4505? Tilts too much for one, loud HVAC for two, high fuel consumption for three, and slow speed for last. Again, things I've said before.

As an aside... loud HVAC systems seems to be an industry wide thing. Here in Seattle our newer buses have air conditioning (which is very nice on a warm day) but when they're running it's nearly-deafeningly loud. I don't get it.

However, I really like the D4500CL/CT, almost as smooth as a X3-45 but it's got the 3,000,000-mile lifetime just like the 102DL3 or MC-9. Prevost hardcore fan Derek (co-host of GTE) told me that Prevost's top out at 1,500,000 miles active duty. Remember, I've not even a MCI hardcore fan anymore, I've bashing the D4505 and J4500 all the time.

If MCI hadn't raised the deck of the D4500 for the D4505, it wouldn't tilt so much, but would have less luggage capacity. Or they could extend the wheelbase, but the D already turns like a battleship. The D has a very strong suspension, much stronger than any other bus, but it turns very poorly. Can't have the best of both.

I've found out why Greyhound ordered the D4505: it lasts longer than the X3-45. The X3-45 is solid, even very solid, just not 30-year/3-million-mile solid, it's not platform integral semi-monocoque (PISM). Not saying the D4505 is better, just saying it does have an advantage that keep it in the market: durability and ease of maintenance. Heard directly from mechanics.

Before the refurbishment program most of Greyhound's 102DL3's had around 15 years/1.5 million miles on them... and they were looking and running pretty bad. ABC companies gutted those coaches down to the frame, made any repairs, refurnished the engines and seats to like-new condition. That's why they might make 30 years/3 million miles now. If they hadn't been refurbished... I guess they *MIGHT* have made it... but I shudder to think how bad they would have looked.

Ricky, I just found out the X3-45 you spotted in So Cal was probably an Americanos X3-45. They are painted the exact same as the Greyhound X3-45's except for lettering. Americanos got X3-45's to replace their beat-up Marcopolo and Dina buses, presumably including the G4500. Those X3-45's are based from Los Angeles, El Paso, and Dallas, I believe, with 60500-series numbers and they don't have Greyhound's tags or "TEXAS APPORTIONED" license plates.

Those Americanos buses look like this. The bus I saw was definitely a Greyhound X3-45.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Attached a photo of a Jefferson D4505 rear. Only one radiator fan. Also, why do you think the DL3's were running bad the few years before the rebuilds? They were still serving Greyhound's whole network due to the incompetent G4500 and they had heavily deferred maintenance.

MCI advertises their buses as the strongest in the world. Prevost conveniently avoid mentioning durability in their sales brochure. Sounds weird to me. Also, most people agree Prevosts are not as strong as MCI's. The other thing is that the X3-45 has panoramic windows. A bus owner told me panoramic windows require expensive, frequent replacement compared to flat windows. Also, rimmed windows are tougher that rimless windows. Finally, many drivers have said the 102DL3 is the best bus ever built.

Edit: The attachment failed. Go to Flickr and search "Jefferson Lines 2009 Engine Compartment". The same thing I saw on the Greyhound. I found out the D4505 with dual radiators was EPA 2007, not EPA 2010.

Even though the photo says it is a 2009, if you look at the next photo in the photostream, you'll see the builder's plate which says it was built in 2011.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I took a look at Orleans Express' roster, a major Prevost operator. They have already retired their 2005 and 2006(?) XL-II's. I don't know the 2006 units are XL-II's or X3-45's. Also, anything built before 2006 has been retired already. For example, look at the attached photo of Orleans Express 5604, a 2006 Prevost, already retired.

I also heard on GTE that Greyhound's and BoltBus' early X3-45's are going for an overhaul. That includes the 2007-2009 units. Doesn't sound particularly durable to me.

 

[railiner]

Finally, many drivers have said the 102DL3 is the best bus ever built..

That's probably because the ones you asked aren't old enough to have driven the General Motors PD-4106....my personal all-time favorite.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The length a bus has been in service does not intrinsically imply it's durability. The cheapest solution to capital equipment is not always to run it into the ground.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Anyway... I neglected to mention, Greyhound has some brand new X3-45s at the Orlando terminal, but I don't know the road numbers of those units. Speaking of that, what caused Greyhound to cancel the D4505 order anyway? I was surprised to hear the order had been canceled. The advertisement for the D4505s that Greyhound had on order was removed from MCI's website.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Id guess they are satisfied with the prevost

 

[railiner]

Anyway... I neglected to mention, Greyhound has some brand new X3-45s at the Orlando terminal, but I don't know the road numbers of those units. Speaking of that, what caused Greyhound to cancel the D4505 order anyway? I was surprised to hear the order had been canceled. The advertisement for the D4505s that Greyhound had on order was removed from MCI's website.

You have got me intrigued with that question....I have not been following that, nor have I heard anything on it....I'll try to inquire from my contacts here, if they can spread any light on that subject.

I will say that the owner of my company, is not impressed with the three D4505's that the state has provided for our use....not enough to order any, nor even try the latest J4500 model. We had some issues with our last order of J's, years ago, that caused him to get away from MCI's......

It's not a good sign for MCI, when company's like ours, which was one of the very first non-Greyhound, American companies to purchase the MC-7 when they were first made available for open purchase, and remained loyal to MCI for a long time.