Greyhound seats and fleet questions

[Swadian Hardcore]

Oh my god, Fullington has one of the worst websites around. Can't understand it at all. Bieber indeed seems to be gone. Line I said, AIBRA is not to be trusted. Susquehanna seems to be running Lock Haven-New York City and Williamsport-Philadelphia through Hazleton. That's all I could find.

What are you interested to know? I can try to help.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

That's mainly what they do along with NYC thru Allentown.

I'm trying to picture what each model looks like when the u are being discussed. I've been around buses all my life cause my grandfather drove for a local company. I also drive transit bus here after being a truck driver. I know what each make generally looks like but not most of the models. Thanks for whatever help I can get.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

OK, Greyhound bus models.

MCI 102DL3 aka D4500: https://www.flickr.com/photos/95851032@N07/14654844098/sizes/h/.

MCI(-Dina) G4500: https://www.flickr.com/photos/95851032@N07/14677947167/sizes/h/.

MCI D4505: https://www.flickr.com/photos/95851032@N07/14891480898/sizes/l.

Prevost X3-45: https://www.flickr.com/photos/95851032@N07/14869911146/sizes/h/.

Other bus models.

Prevost H3-45: https://www.flickr.com/photos/gerarddonnelly/8164531891/sizes/l.

MCI 102EL3/E4500: https://www.flickr.com/photos/23296339@N07/2228349675/sizes/l,

https://www.flickr.com/photos/58636818@N04/10503564233/sizes/l.

MCI J4500: https://www.flickr.com/photos/23296339@N07/2229134018/sizes/l/,

https://www.flickr.com/photos/translinkfan/15210355039/sizes/l.

There's a lot more, but those are the models we're discussing right now.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

Thanks. Gonna check them out.

 

[railiner]

My source tells me that GLI has around 200 new buses on order, currently....

 

[rickycourtney]

I don't know exactly why, but indeed, the line-haul coaches seem to have fallen behind more than just aesthetics. Look at the X3-45. It weighs the same as the H3-45, but it's smaller. In terms of bottom line, the H3-45 just sounds better. The D4505s are fuel guzzlers, while the J4500 has raced ahead in efficiency.

That's exactly my point. I'm wondering if Prevost or MCI is planning to totally redesign the line-haul coaches... it seems like its time.

Yeah, Greyhound is probably investing in e-Ticketing, but that shouldn't cost as much as ordering new coaches. The problem is, they still have too many White G4500s rolling around, one just caught on fire, and passengers have recently posted a slew of complaints about the D4505 on Facebook. Greyhound Canada is having financial trouble, and they are apparently still running 1995 DL3s (no rebuild) in reserve service, while trying to retire the White G4500s. Greyhound already has 85% blue, might as well go for 100%.

I'm sure that's the plan. Rebuild the G4500 units that can be rebuilt... and retire the rest.

Greyhound Canada hasn't rebuilt all of their newer 1100-series DL3s yet, I think they might sign a separate contract with MCI to rebuild them, since they are likely lacking in cash to buy new units. Then get rid of all the G4500s, upgrade the White D4505s a bit (to have "blue" amenities), keep the older DL3s for reserve service and Greyhound Canada is good to go.

Why would they contract with MCI? ABC companies did the rebuilds of the 120DL3 for Greyhound US.

Now the question is, what will Greyhound buy to replace their remaining White G4500s? The Blue G has gotten an excellent reception, though, the best reviews overall.

*IF* MCI or Prevost is planning on building a totally redesigned line-haul coach... I'd expect Greyhound to wait it out and buy that.

 

[rickycourtney]

My source tells me that GLI has around 200 new buses on order, currently....

Going on what's public knowledge... Greyhound's last major order was in April, 2013 for 220 buses and it was split between MCI (130 D4505) and Prevost (90 X3-45).That was followed by a smaller order with Prevost in November 2013 for 55 additional buses.

All of those buses were supposed to be delivered by May 2014.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I was thinking they might contract with MCI simply because MCI has a large existing facility in Winnipeg. ABC Companies' refurb facility is in the US and just closed. But Greyhound Canada has units that can be rebuilt, but aren't being rebuilt. Sure, they are probably damaged, and will probably cost quite a lot to rebuild, but at a time when Greyhound Canada is broke and the current line-haul models are not very good for the bottom line, it's better than nothing. And those units already have extra amenities like TVs, winged headrests, and enclosed parcel racks.

This somewhat-damaged DL3 could surely be rebuilt: https://www.flickr.com/photos/67865656@N06/6177005306/sizes/l.

As for MCI or Prevost building a totally redesigned coach, well MCI doesn't seem to care since they refuse to even try developing the efficient DD13 for the D4505, meaning that will continue to guzzle fuel, while Prevost seems complacent as well. I don't even know what could be done to the X3-45, the wheelbase is as long as it can get, and Prevost has demonstrated they don't like to embark on major redesigns. Even the X3-45 is very similar to the 1976 LeMirage.

I'm sure the 200 coaches on order was directed at the D4505 and X3-45 order that has already been delivered, though delivery of the D4505 order was apparently suspended, presumably after unhappiness with the fuel guzzling, the D4505 is the least efficient Greyhound and possibly the least efficient coach on the market.

Greyhound Canada's D4505s with the Detroit 60 EGR have also received complaints from drivers. They are white and look really weird: http://www.busdrawings.com/greyhoundca/d4505/2006d4505a/211008-2811gh1297.jpg.

I really think the D4505 looks worse than the 102DL3 from that angle.

Greyhound appears clueless on how to deal with the remaining White Gs, many of which are damaged beyond repair and must be retired ASAP, while unable to decide what to order. Arrow Stage, a large charter company with 200 vehicles, reported their H3-45s are suffering frequent oil leaks in their Volvo D13 engines, and are now grinding axes with Prevost over maintenance issues. Arrow says they like the H3-45 and think it's one of the best coaches ever built, but the oil leaks are sapping profits and causing a major dispute with Prevost that may have spread to Greyhound.

All these are rumors on the Internet, but Arrow actually made the claim that the Cummins ISX12 is better than the Volvo D13, as much as Greyhound seems to hate the ISX12. I sure wouldn't want my newest coaches to be the worst fuel guzzlers, but I wouldn't want them to spew oil, either.

This is giving Van Hool another opportunity to grab customers with their new CX45 and TX40/45 models, even rumors that Greyhound leased some for BoltBus.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Guys, I have news! Greyhound has been spotted using X3-45s in widespread domestic service in Eastern Canada! Tony Solski spotted 2008 X3-45 #8886 with a trailer hitch. Trailers are only pulled in Canada. Current running out of Toronto Garage. It appears the coach still has its American "Lucky Streak" icons. Not sure if the coach is going to be transferred to Canadian registration.

#8886 is one of the few X3-45s to be equipped with Patriot PT seating. When it was built in 2008, American Seating had not come out with the dreaded "Painful Premier" Premier LS yet.

 

[rickycourtney]

Bus manufacturers aren't like car manufacturers, they make a niche product, so it doesn't really make since for them to radically redesign often.

But MCI has a stated goal of increasing the parts commonality of the D4505 and the J4500. Since the J4500 just got a radical redesign, logic would dictate that the D4505 would also be redesigned using as many of the same parts as possible while retaining the rugged reliability expected from a line haul coach.

While Prevost hasn't publically said that want to standardize parts between the recently redesigned H3-34 and the X3-45... considering the potential cost savings it would behoove the company to do it.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

You make a good point, but the D4505 is selling so poorly right now, I'm not even sure MCI cares anymore. The J4500 was redesigned when it had already been the bestseller for eight years.

Then again, a redesign might bring more orders. They could extend the wheelbase and give it a Detroit DD13 engine. Then it would likely beat the X3-45.

OTOH, the lines between "line-haul" and "charter" have been increasingly blurred since Orleans Express used so many H3-45s and some J4500s for line-haul. Many operators actually use the H3-45 for line-haul. I assume the X3-45's equally-heavy weight is a factor, along with the H3-45's lowered price. But I don't see how Prevost could lower the weight of the X3-45. It already shares a lot of parts commonality with the H3-45, it used the same engine, transmission, and accessories config. And it has the same interior, same brakes, same radar. And it seems to have the same lights and HVAC.

 

[rickycourtney]

Just my opinion, but I think there will always be a market for long-haul coaches. There are operators that want a rugged bus like the 102DL3, and don't necessarily want all the bells and whistles you get on the J4500.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I agree there will always be such a market, especially with the charters and tours market saturated and the line-haul market growing fast. Right now there just doesn't seem to be a dedicated line-hauler that is doing well in sales, and that might really lower the incentive for MCI or Prevost to redesign theirs.

The original D4505 was done poorly because MCI was in bankruptcy at the time. Now you see D4505s performing worse than the much older 102DL3. Many D4505s are showing up with cracks like the G4500.

Dirty D4505: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=719705778064623&set=o.117755058267776&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xfa1%2Fv%2Ft1.0-9%2F10599696_719705778064623_2999576903921181817_n.jpg%3Foh%3Ddc36916ed1885a66152306712b927f06%26oe%3D54BE9BAC%26__gda__%3D1422516378_7a43d75f6c1bf7beeeef0c82ae54c721&size=720%2C960.

Another dirty D4505: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=366126470209207&set=o.117755058267776&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xpf1%2Fv%2Ft1.0-9%2F1453469_366126470209207_5009149614191637700_n.jpg%3Foh%3D5c0dc8c1b59466267186cb3b12bc7b5a%26oe%3D54C3FCC6%26__gda__%3D1421779207_2ee105966107d3c136e0e0f98ce7b1e0&size=543%2C960.

Another dirty D4505: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=366126470209207&set=o.117755058267776&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xpf1%2Fv%2Ft1.0-9%2F1453469_366126470209207_5009149614191637700_n.jpg%3Foh%3D5c0dc8c1b59466267186cb3b12bc7b5a%26oe%3D54C3FCC6%26__gda__%3D1421779207_2ee105966107d3c136e0e0f98ce7b1e0&size=543%2C960.

D4505 with cracked luggage hold: https://www.flickr.com/photos/95851032@N07/15237991879/in/photolist-oVstk2-owKupN-pdwG6V-pv2Fxx-9btKWL-9bqCHk-8Sbw2v-9bqDei.

Chipped bumper: https://www.flickr.com/photos/buses-international/7421076676/in/set-72157626594538860.

That is definitely not the rugged durability of the 102DL3. That seems barely more durable than the J4500 or H3-45.

For that matter, this "durable" MC-12 is beat up too: https://www.flickr.com/photos/buses-international/6163148506/in/set-72157626594538860.

 

[rickycourtney]

I agree there will always be such a market, especially with the charters and tours market saturated and the line-haul market growing fast. Right now there just doesn't seem to be a dedicated line-hauler that is doing well in sales, and that might really lower the incentive for MCI or Prevost to redesign theirs.

Or it could be the opposite... Line haul buses aren't selling well because operators are waiting for the manufacturers to do a redesign.
Also, those dirty D4505s are DISGUSTING. But that's not MCI's fault... that's just bad maintenance from Greyhound.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Well, the chipped bumper and cracked hatches are probably MCI's fault.

This guy appears to be complaining of black smoke spewing out the back of the D4505, though has no evidence to show it: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152790912012526&set=o.117755058267776&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xaf1%2Ft31.0-8%2F1063960_10152790912012526_6142842693678725631_o.jpg&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xpa1%2Fv%2Ft1.0-9%2F1505189_10152790912012526_6142842693678725631_n.jpg%3Foh%3D53714cfb2abecc4ae980b5d8e126d246%26oe%3D54BE7061%26__gda__%3D1421845003_6abf96f6750155a684add9889b8a7cc4&size=1153%2C2048.

While one can blame all this on Greyhound maintenance, it's again put against the fact that 102DL3s have no been reported spewing black smoke out the back or leaking massive amounts of rain.

Here's massive amounts of rain leaking and pouring into a Patriot PT-equipped X3-45: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152483332834634&set=o.117755058267776&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xpa1%2Ft31.0-8%2F10273367_10152483332834634_6223385242729029774_o.jpg&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xpa1%2Fv%2Ft1.0-9%2F10447875_10152483332834634_6223385242729029774_n.jpg%3Foh%3D361197667897f5c26d76e0f5e744e729%26oe%3D54B947E6%26__gda__%3D1420682992_6ca9aa1eea24bf8f5b6c1959ed751915&size=1536%2C2048.

Here's disgusting conditions on a White G4500. As you can see, the entrance door was stuck and the driver had to kick it out. The entrance door window had fallen out and was repaired with cardboard then stitched with duct tape: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=644293968973925&set=o.117755058267776&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xap1%2Fv%2Ft1.0-9%2F10276974_644293968973925_4934252401104348274_n.jpg%3Foh%3D0409afe19e54f1674ea715213a8da651%26oe%3D54CBE2F8%26__gda__%3D1422389796_911002e50e2a3b420deef01bc884aca6&size=680%2C870.

That being said, the lost luggage isn't really Greyhound's fault as they never transfer luggage. Seeing their "bags" in Wichita Falls could have been someone else's bags, unless a passenger stole them.

The only complaint of a DL3, other than normal breakdowns that happen with every model, was this: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10203797241237726&set=o.117755058267776&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xpf1%2Ft31.0-8%2F1941313_10203797241237726_226777467539122801_o.jpg&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xpf1%2Fv%2Ft1.0-9%2F10155206_10203797241237726_226777467539122801_n.jpg%3Foh%3D87e1f2b96fa65e83307fd4c0c453dc89%26oe%3D54AB210A%26__gda__%3D1422735413_772c1efdf46316dd88126ac289d7fad6&size=1152%2C2048.

Which doesn't really show any problems except the fact that the TVs were covered. That's because Greyhound doesn't even use the TVs and likely removed the insides.

This complaint on a D4505 is about haywire HVAC: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1448515702052358&set=o.117755058267776&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xfa1%2Ft31.0-8%2F10014360_1448515702052358_450597010_o.jpg&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xpa1%2Fv%2Ft1.0-9%2F10153256_1448515702052358_450597010_n.jpg%3Foh%3D077690e6de86f9fa6c0e93dfd2c53693%26oe%3D54C4AC25%26__gda__%3D1420709630_4d8182ac0796b24d2d7390ff0fee0554&size=1408%2C1056.

The driver did miss the exits but Greyhound forbids use of GPS.

White G4500 warped: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=724163114264928&set=o.117755058267776&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xap1%2Ft31.0-8%2F1292989_724163114264928_1675206192_o.jpg&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-frc3%2Fv%2Ft1.0-9%2F945990_724163114264928_1675206192_n.jpg%3Foh%3D78dc18338c714e50007d80d1abd13872%26oe%3D54B7CEBD%26__gda__%3D1422817097_89f190eae2fba30f13884f0af791e257&size=1224%2C918.

While one can blame all this on Greyhound maintenance, it's again put against the fact that 102DL3s have no been reported spewing black smoke out the back, leaking massive amounts of rain, windows falling out, broken doors, warped doors, or haywire HVAC.

I'm not saying nothing goes wrong with a 102DL3, but compared to these newer buses?

 

[mightyjoe1201]

I agree most of that stuff can b blamed on greyhound maintenance. I disagree with you on the bumper of the one bus. That could actually be a driver's fault. May have hit something.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Yes, you can blame the driver, but the bumper ought to be tougher so that it doesn't crack. The DL3 bumpers don't crack, they just take scratches.

Rain pouring into a X3-45 is not Greyhound's fault. No 102DL3 or D4505 has been reported with rain pouring in. How is one supposed to expect a high-quality bus to crack in the roof? That's not maintenance, no one expects to have to maintain a roof "well" enough that it doesn't crack.

White G4500s are generally not Greyhound's fault, they were falling apart when they were new. One caught on fire when it was a few months old. A one-month old G4500 had the fan guard fall off and destroy the fan. A two-month old G4500 had the tag axle fall off. When you buy a new bus, you don't expect it to lose an axle on the Interstate.

Haywire HVAC has been a problem with new D4505s and X3-45s, apparently more so with the X3-45. Other companies have also complained about the D4505 and X3-45 or H3-45. Arrow said the H3-45's Volvo D13 engine was spewing oil.

All I'm saying is that the D4505 and X3-45 probably aren't as durable as the 102DL3. The D4505 seems a bit better than the X3-45 simply because no rain has been seen pouring into the D4505 while it was seen in the X3-45.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

Is the rain Inside the bus when it's raining out Or when the a/c is on? We have some Gilligan transit buses that rain inside when the a/c is on.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

I've had bumper crack like that on a truck from hitting something. But yeah, it should have been stronger.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

Edit, supposed to b Gillig. Not what it says. Sorry.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I've seen HVAC rain inside buses as well. North American coaches with windowline air vents sometime have "raindrops" forming on the window escape bar and along the edges of the windows.

Eric told me it's general practice in the industry to open the windows to air out the coaches, and if not closed properly, there could also be raindrops leaking in.

But this?

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152483332834634&set=o.117755058267776&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xpa1%2Ft31.0-8%2F10273367_10152483332834634_6223385242729029774_o.jpg&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xpa1%2Fv%2Ft1.0-9%2F10447875_10152483332834634_6223385242729029774_n.jpg%3Foh%3D361197667897f5c26d76e0f5e744e729%26oe%3D54B947E6%26__gda__%3D1420682992_6ca9aa1eea24bf8f5b6c1959ed751915&size=1536%2C2048.

Well you can see it's raining outside, and there is really rain POURING into the coach and the seat is soaked. Obviously, there was a crack or hole in the roof, presumably where the window meets the roof/parcel rack. This is too ridiculous. The President's bus model should not be so flimsy.

 

[rickycourtney]

The 102DL3 was a rugged bus, they don't build them like that anymore.

That leaves Greyhound in the tough position of just buying what they can.

That being said John... now that the rush to get ADA compliant is over, I would think that Greyhound would be working with MCI or Prevost to redesign the line-haul coach to the standard they need.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

That is nasty. I hope greyhound does something. Especially get the manufacturer involved to fix it. And if it's under warranty at the manufacturer expense.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I'm sure that's a reason why line-haul coach sales are low. With line-haul coaches having barely any advantages over charter/tour coaches, and many disadvantages, all at similar prices, it's definitely time for MCI and Prevost to do it better with the line haul market as it grows fast.

I'm hoping MCI will take the old DL3 blueprints, extend the wheelbase, give it an EPA-compliant Detroit DD13 engine with SCR, update all the lights to LED, and market it to Greyhound and other line-haul operators. Even if the coach turns like a boat, it doesn't really matter for running down the Interstate. I wish they had kept the old rear end with the big grille, it apparently cooled the engine better and provided better performance.

Such a coach should not be used for commuter service, which has not nearly the same demands as long-distance hauling. Commuter coaches can't have the DD13 anyways, that engine is not Buy America complaint.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I just found an interior shot of a rebuilt 102DL3 that does not have Patriot PT or Torino VIP, see this: http://us.justdial.com/CA/Stockton/Greyhound_Bus_Lines/near_Commerce_St,washington_St/9Cm0003848-U3RvY2t0b24sQ0EgR3JleWhvdW5kIEJ1cyBMaW5lcw==/photos.

Third photo is the interior of a DL3, with seating that I can't identify. It's actually not Amaya Brasil, maybe it's Amaya PG or high-back Torino Standard. I don't know what PG is but I heard about it and it isn't in production anymore. The lines look like Torino Standard but with high backs instead of the adjustable headrest. Also has a different headliner than the other DL3s, that headliner is grey, most Greyhound DL3s have white headliners.

Yes, that coach must be a rebuild, not a "simple refurb", since it has a wheelchair lift. Unfortunately, the bus number is too blurry and I can't identify it. But it was posted under Stockton so it's possibly one of the few Los Angeles-based DL3s.

Though this DL3 has a grey headliner and the Patriot PT seats: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-X6ektA2cq7A/UL5pcl_Je6I/AAAAAAAADdg/UCEf5MPW6p4/s1600/Greyhound%2BBus.jpg.

Seems like Greyhound uses headliners interchangeably.