Greyhound seats and fleet questions

[Swadian Hardcore]

You're right, but the problems now run into each other. The Cummins-powered D4505 and Volvo-powered X3-45 were put through the same tests. The former got 5.92 mpg, the latter 6.85 mpg. Greyhound's running 130,000 miles/year per unit. At that kind of mileage, the D4505 would use 21,959 gallons of ULSD. The X3-45, only 18,978. Nearly 3,000 gallons less. Hardly a small difference. Now times that by hundreds of units and the price of diesel.

Then the problem of putting DD13s in D4505s. Greyhound could insist on that, but the D4505 is already very expensive at $545,000 for a stock ADA (more than H3-45 and J4500 even) and Greyhound might not be willing to commit the funds into Detroit-powered D4505s. Like I said before, I think Greyhound doesn't want to commit and MCI doesn't want to do it if Greyhound doesn't commit, because the DD13 is useless to transit agencies and private sector sales of the D4505 are very low right now.

MCI had to lower the price of the D4500CTH ADA intercity from $870,000 to $831,910 to get the NJT order, according to a NJT employee.

MCI just posted two more new releases on J4500 orders for charter companies. But nothing on the D4505. So far in 2014, only 7 D4505 units have been publically announced, all in the same one little order.

OTOH, Greyhound does still have that 130-unit D4505 order hanging in the balance and nobody knows what's really going on. I can only imagine they are angry at the Cummins. They did order the Detroit-powered D4505 as much as possible before the offering was discontinued in early 2011. That order was originally only 70 units but Greyhound ended up with 108. And many companies use the D4505 while few use the X3-45.

So it's a big stalemate right now AFAIK, and MCI probably holds a charge against Greyhound for hanging up that D4505 order.

 

[rickycourtney]

I'm trying to update the numbers on the Wikipedia page, let me know if this looks correct:

102DL3 (D4500)

1998-2001: 469 (official number from Greyhound.com)

G4500

2001-2003: 175 (official number from Greyhound.com)

D4505

2010: 88 (official number from Greyhound.com)

2013: 100 (out of an order of 130, Greyhound says there's a total of 188 D4505's in the fleet)

X3-45

2008-2009: 190

2012-2013: 90 (originally an order for 60, increased to 90)

2014: 55 (per METRO Magazine, not included in the 280 figure on Greyhound.com)

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I think you mean D4505 for the second "D4500". But anyway, my info is copied directly from the Texas DMV roster and has matching VINs. If you want, I can just copy the roster over to a spreadsheet, convert it to PDF, and then you can easily count the units with absolute precision. I'll just do it right now, it'll be done in no time. Saves me time trying to count the units by hand. I might start a new thread just for roster counting because it'll be big.

I got this message from Hemmt, a Greyhound driver on GTE, regarding the D4505 order cancellation:
"The rumor I heard from an instructor is that the safety dept wanted the adaptive cruise control/fod sensor found on the 2012 and up prevosts added to the mci order and MCI said no so cut the number of buses in the order! This was after the incident on the NYC-Chicago run!"

Like he said, just a rumor. He's apparently lurking on this thread as well.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

Swadian,

Like you I'm not a fan of come a parts, I mean Cummins, but after talking with some friends that are still driving truck I found out that the detroits aren't really all that great anymore. Most of them have the dd15 and a few have dd13 but are having major mechanical problems with them.

 

[rickycourtney]

If you could send me the spreadsheet in addition to the PDF... that would be great!

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Yep, but people have told me they experienced major mechanical problems with Volvo, Cummins, and Caterpillar, everything has problems now. If nothing else, that SCR, DPF, and DEF are all extra things to maintain. For coaches with radar-assisted adaptive cruise control, that's even more to maintain.

So the "incident on NYC-Chicago" was the case when DL3 #6345 rear-ended a truck in the middle of the night. If the rumors are true, Greyhound thinks the adaptive cruise control would have prevented the accident. I don't think so, but there you go. The radar rarely works anyway. I think we can agree that radar should not be depended on to prevent accidents, and the driver's skill is far more important. Hemmt says he knew the driver and said she was friendly and professional. He said they would meet up at a rear stop and convoy the Pennsylvania Turnpike. The drive lost a leg in the accident.

Many rumors, nothing clear right now.

Do you guys prefer Michelin, Goodyear, Bridgestone, Firestone, or Falken tires? Does anybody even use Falkens for motorcoaches?

Edit: If all you want is the vehicle list from Texas DMV, it's right here: https://apps.txdmv.gov/apps/mccs/truckstop/, but not in actual spreadsheet form.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

Personally Michelin or Goodyear. Never heard of Fallen.

Next time I talk to my friends I'll have to ask exactly what problems they are having. I know one guy has been having cylinder problems. He's had to replace the sleeve on two of them over the last three years.

 

[rickycourtney]

The adaptive cruise control should make life a little easier for drivers and it helps save on fuel costs (the cruise control is usually easier on the throttle), but I think the real reason Greyhound wants that system is for the impact alert feature.

From Prevost:

"This feature will alert the driver if the distance between coach and vehicle ahead closes too quickly, giving the driver an opportunity to take action. Impact Alert is always active and protecting the coach (in cruise or not)."

Interestingly the Prevost AWARE Adaptive Cruise Braking system isn't offered as an option on the X3-45, it's only offered on the H3-45. That means Greyhound likely special ordered it.

Also despite the fancy name Prevost's adaptive cruise control system is an off the shelf product made by Bendix, any company can buy it. If MCI didn't want to offer it, they were just being stubborn.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

Impact alert systems are worthless cause they go off to often. I used a system made by Eaton, it would go off going around a curve where there was either construction barriers and barrels. Its also possible to disconnect it without the co knowing. The braking part might be good, especially when other drivers don't give you time to react.

 

[rickycourtney]

Unlike truckers Greyhound drivers don't have a unit assigned to them. They drive a coach for their run and then hand it over to maintenance or another driver who continues the run. There would be little chance for a driver to tamper with the equipment.

That being said I recently rented a Chevy SUV with an accident avoidance system and found it annoying. This system used cameras not radar and it breaked for a shadow on the road.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

It can be as easy ad either unplugging the system from the back of the unit to just putting duct tape over the speaker to silence it. Its not something that u only do if assigned the vehicle. Yeah, I'd say it's annoying. Using cameras could make a long drive miserable with so much breaking. I always hated the systems but having them was cheaper on the insurance.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Ah, I see the deal here! Govt requires $5 million insurance per motorcoach. If Greyhound can get that insurance policy for cheaper by putting in radar and the impact alert, follow distance alert, and adaptive cruise control that comes with it, then they'll put in radar. Since MCI reportedly refused to do so, Greyhound went to Prevost. In the long run, it's all about money. Of course the D4505 is selling for more than the X3-45 right now anyway, AFAIK, or at least it's selling for more than the H3-45 and J4500.

Even radar isn't always working or reliable. Driver Dale was running #86284 when he said that coach had radar failure and he drove another X3-45 that constantly warned him of a head-on collision, even though no vehicle was around for miles (it must have been on US 40 since he was driving US 40 again when he said that).

 

[rickycourtney]

Hey John are you still working on that spreadsheet/PDF?

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Uh, it took longer than I thought it would, and I got.....distracted. Well, some really weird things popped out. I was copying over the units and sorting by VIN, and I copied over Greyhound first and then Americanos, right? But when I was copying over the Americanos DL3s ("1M8P") and attempting to sort by VIN, I noticed 2 of them had the same VIN as Greyhound DL3s with different unit numbers.

Serials 52858 and 52864, both 2000 production 102DL3s with Detroit 60 12.7L 370hp engines, were the duplicate units. The entire VINs were the exact same matches down to the check digit. P052858 was reported as both Greyhound #6461 and Americanos #60757. P052864 was reported as both Greyhound #6467 and Americanos #60579.

Then, more confusion. Greyhound #6501 and #6502 were transferred to Americanos and renumbered #60554 and #60555. Here's #60555 recently seen at Los Angeles Garage (Google just updated Street View again): https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0340119,-118.2362583,3a,46.6y,318.66h,72.8t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sZAySn5uBkjsiW1Z7Pf9LiA!2e0.

I know that's a Greyhound 6500-series DL3, it has the very wide swinging wheelchair door.

Here's #60529, a nee-Americanos DL3: https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0336489,-118.2362732,3a,17.7y,227.6h,87.13t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sXOP6qVJvn-tG6jyk2W3zXw!2e0.

#60755, used to be Greyhound #6444: https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0336832,-118.2369905,3a,29.1y,6.46h,79.27t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sQgbzwtT3gIYmD__56VM4zQ!2e0.

#60760, used to be #6553: https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0337018,-118.2372174,3a,21.5y,142.28h,83.16t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sOTr0-N-Xn4IfhnAyDJ86-Q!2e0.

#60579, one of the duplicated units: https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0343854,-118.2374334,3a,15y,323.48h,86.19t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sbLvZO4ig_vHCJYMyTa4PjA!2e0.

Move around to the lift door. Appears to have a wide lift door like the 6500s and unlike the 6400s. If it had been #6467, the lift door would have been narrower, being a retrofit since the 64s didn't have them originally.

You're right, Ricky, the Blue G4500 is allowed in California. Seen right here, #7111, which I have also seen in Reno: https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0342075,-118.2374459,3a,75y,91.02h,73.5t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s0jHQf1MDgWwxh-SMUfG95A!2e0.

Another Blue G: https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0346848,-118.2374125,3a,15y,237.98h,87.84t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sE53WUDL3nqNHWKmypNeYCQ!2e0.

Damn those rumors of Blue G's banned from CA!

To make matters worse, I found a 102D3 with a wheelchair lift: https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0350082,-118.2384582,3a,15y,141.59h,86.03t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sx1yKxhOUrsoqkjJryx64-Q!2e0.Appears to be a retrofit, meaning Greyhound wanted to keep it. Or it could be a factory-installed, I don't really know from that angle.

If you saw a Greyhound X3-45 in Los Angeles, most like an ex-Americanos that got new lettering, like this one: https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0336758,-118.2368942,3a,22.3y,234.23h,82.58t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sPQbsHucQljKJNOwtC9pvTA!2e0.

Basically, at this point, I'm confused about Greyhound's fleet, very confused. Well, I'm taking a break.

Just as a bonus, true D4505 Domination in Los Angeles: https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0336614,-118.2367011,3a,75y,214.8h,77.48t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sHBqvK7rSoKA4RxG21Czhfw!2e0.

 

[rickycourtney]

Okay well I'm feeling pretty confident with that list I put together earlier.

On Wikipedia I don't want to get too far into the inside baseball of the heritage of these coaches and it needs to be supported by sources I can cite.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

You can cite Texas DMV for the following confirmed info:

188 should be correct for the D4505s after discounting BoltBus.

371 X3-45s after discounting BoltBus. A few pilot X3-45s have been transferred to Canada but still remain in that 371. Greyhound's figure of 280 is definitely too low.

234 G4500s. No duplicates or transfers. Definitely confirmed 234 G4500s. I'm thinking Greyhound's figure of 175 are the Blue G4500s, and the rest must be in reserve/storage.

No confirmed info for the 102DL3 right now, but there are at least 502 in the fleet and no more than 506, including 21 confirmed D4500s. Greyhound's figure of 469 must be the line-haul rebuilt units with wheelchair lifts, and the leftovers must be everything else, from ex-Americanos white reserves, to charter-only white, to charter-only blue, etc.

 

[rickycourtney]

So there's some inconsistencies here...

* In a recent Washington Post article, Greyhound said they have 1,229 motorcoaches in their fleet.

* My count using METRO magazine and Greyhound.com comes to 1,167.

* Your count comes to between 1,295 and 1,299.

* Texas DMV has 1,441 coaches on the roster.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

• In that Washington Port article, Greyhound might not have included their newest X3-45s, reserve White G's, charter-only White D's, and/or they might not have included Americanos units.
• METRO is great for announced orders but it doesn't account very well for options, Americanos, state-owned units, state-funded units, or other units from subsidiaries that have joined Greyhound's fleet.
• Yep, that's the count of registered 102DL3, D4500, D4505, G4500, and X3-45 equipment (my count).
• You're right, Texas DMV says 1,441 units, but Texas DMV also lists 102D3s, C2045s, T840s, T845s, GCAs, etc, etc, that are rare units in the fleet. If you want to list all those rare units on Wikipedia, go ahead. I only compiled the regular fleet units.

Oh yeah, I found out it has to be between 502 and 504 DL3s, two of the confusing ones were eliminated. There's 502 DL3 VINs registered under Greyhound and/or Americanos, but there's 2 VINs listed twice with different unit numbers.

 

[rickycourtney]

Interesting... Greyhound Canada posts their schedule changes and gives the public time to respond. Must be legally required in Canada.

http://extranet.greyhound.com/revsup/csked/bulletins.html

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Probably because the rural Canadians in the little towns depend on Greyhound as their lifeline. I wouldn't be surprised if it was required, but I wish they were all in English. Greyhound US also has schedule bulletins, though they haven't posted any since 2013.

Canada still has the old-fashioned regulated bus network which the US had before the 1980s. Deregulation is coming along very slowly. Greyhound Canada is obligated to stop at rural towns even though they are unprofitable, hence GLC's inability to afford new coaches and that special note in the financial report about GLC financial trouble. However, GLC does have special monopolies in BC and possibly other provinces as well.

 

[rickycourtney]

Also I realized that if you shorten the web address you can access a lot more of the extranet. Maybe you'll find something interesting in here: http://extranet.greyhound.com/revsup

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I found this: http://extranet.greyhound.com/revsup/pfsm/pageset.html.

If you poke around you'll find the complete fare structure laid out and lots of other complicated information regarding fares.

Van Hool in action at Harlingen: https://www.flickr.com/photos/redfusee/15685909242/sizes/o/.

Van Hools in horrible condition at Harlingen: https://www.flickr.com/photos/redfusee/15684304475/sizes/o/.

Van Hool getting scrapped in Harlingen: https://www.flickr.com/photos/redfusee/15684308335/sizes/o/.

I'd say no better than a White G.

Peek inside a Greyhound Van Hool in Michigan service: https://www.flickr.com/photos/brandonz/174085690/sizes/o/. Very similar to the White G interior.

 

[rickycourtney]

So now that the new Plattsburgh, NY production line is ready, Prevost is finally offering the X3-45 Commuter Coach on a wider basis and they've posted a new website for it.

Very similar to the current X3-45 but with a few changes including new H3 style rear end cap.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

So now that the new Plattsburgh, NY production line is ready, Prevost is finally offering the X3-45 Commuter Coach on a wider basis and they've posted a new website for it.

Very similar to the current X3-45 but with a few changes including new H3 style rear end cap.

These are going to look interesting when Orlando gets them. Never been on a Prevost before, but come 2015, that will change.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I wonder what kind of seats they will have. The seats shown in the Prevost brochure have no seat belts and presumably no containment.

Expect a smooth, quiet ride, but not exactly the greatest views out the window, the windows are quite small by motorcoach standards and are placed high so people under 6' tall will have their shoulder level with the window escape bar.

The adaptive cruise braking and impact warning would be useful for commuter service while they are not so useful for cruising the open road when the traffic is much less and the radar is more prone to braking or getting unplugged by an annoyed driver. I wonder where the grille is now that the X3-45 got the H3-45 rear hatch.