Greyhound seats and fleet questions

[rickycourtney]

I wonder what kind of seats they will have. The seats shown in the Prevost brochure have no seat belts and presumably no containment.

Those appear to be American Seating Model 2095 seats. They are the same seats that Sound Transit has on its MCI and older model New Flyer buses. From experience I can say they aren't very comfortable.

Right in the brochure Prevost says seats from other manufacturers are available. That makes sense because most transit operators have a standard seat model they use and it's installed in every bus no matter the manufacturer.

Seat belts won't be required on motorcoaches until next year and transit operators might be exempt (don't hold me to that).

Expect a smooth, quiet ride, but not exactly the greatest views out the window, the windows are quite small by motorcoach standards and are placed high so people under 6' tall will have their shoulder level with the window escape bar.

Feel free to supply actual measurements to support your claim. I personally don't think there is much of a difference.

The adaptive cruise braking and impact warning would be useful for commuter service while they are not so useful for cruising the open road when the traffic is much less and the radar is more prone to braking or getting unplugged by an annoyed driver.

Again, the AWARE system was a special order by Greyhound. It's not officially offered as an option on the X3-45 or the X3-45 Commuter Coach. Clearly Greyhound management thinks it's useful for cruising the open road or they wouldn't have gone through the trouble of special ordering it.

I wonder where the grille is now that the X3-45 got the H3-45 rear hatch.

Prevost has always mounted the radiator on the left side (not the rear) of the X3-45. I assume it's at the same place on the X3-45 Commuter Coach.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Transit operators might be exempt? That would suck! A motorcoach is a motorcoach, transit-operated motorcoaches should not be exempt, or else they should be forbidden to order motorcoaches! I guess that suggests GGT and NJT are exempt too even though they operate 3-hour-long transit routes.

Haven't ridden 2095 much but it's American Seating, what do you expect? It appears 2095 is the standard for commuter coaches, Denver RTD also has it, and so does UTA.

I haven't got actual measurements but you can compare the photos.

X3-45: https://www.flickr.com/photos/95851032@N07/15501097039/sizes/l.
D4505: https://www.flickr.com/photos/greyhound_bus/12914309894/sizes/l.

As you can see, the X3-45 window line is approximately 4 inches higher in relation to the floor in comparison to the D4505, assuming the Premier LS is positioned at the same height in the X3-45 as in the D4505. If you look at the seat cushioning you will see a horizontal line in the middle-upper part of the back about 2/3 the way before the headrest. On the X3-45, that line is below the bottom of the window, while on the D4505, that line is above. Anybody above 6' tall probably wouldn't notice.

Basically, the bottom of the X3-45 window line feels like the MC-12 window line whereas the D4505 one is the same as the 102A3, B, C, and D models. The 96A3 (right before 102A3) got an extended window line bigger than the MC-9. That window line was extended downwards to the MC-9's driver window position, while the 96A3 driver's window was further lower. This is why the 96A3 had the dashboard jutting out above the bottom of the windshield while the MC-9 dash was completely concealed; the 96A3 had the same driver's seat and dash height albeit redesigned.

Here's a MC-9: https://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/14819040090/sizes/l.
Here's a 102A3 (widened 96A3): https://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/14819040090/sizes/l.

See how the top of the 102A3 dashboard is lined up with the bottom of the passenger window line?

The X3-45 window line being from the LeMirage, designed in 1976 during the MC-8 era, even before the MC-9, would explain the lack of sight line depression. The panoramic windows of the LeMirage were designed for elevation, looking up, which is not useful for shorter people in the window seat trying to lean on the window (me).

See this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/8715452743/sizes/l.

The windows don't go down, only up, and the headroom of the X3-45 is a bit more than the MC-9 IIRC.

Perhaps next time I'll ride them again and measure it for you, though I probably won't get to ride X3-45s much. I'll measure the D4505, no problem.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

I think for seating on Lynx's Prevost commuter coaches, they will probably use 4one, since it is an option, along with American Seating. Lynx uses 4one Gemini on the 2013-2014 Gillig BRTs and the 2013 Nova artics.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

4one? You means this? http://www.4one.com/type/motor-coach/.

That's just Amaya. Amaya Torino G, Brasil, Patriot, why are they not 4ONE? What's going on here? I'm understandably confused. Not sure what Pepito is, but I think it's a FAINSA spin-off. Looks a lot like the FAINSA Gaudi: http://www.fainsa.com/en/index.php.

Wait a second, doesn't the G4500 have Brasil? So the Brasil is a FAINSA, not an Amaya? Then Greyhound Canada would have Brasil VIP, not Torino VIP. Aw man, I'm confused!

 

[Caesar La Rock]

4one? You means this? http://www.4one.com/type/motor-coach/.

That's just Amaya. Amaya Torino G, Brasil, Patriot, why are they not 4ONE? What's going on here? I'm understandably confused. Not sure what Pepito is, but I think it's a FAINSA spin-off. Looks a lot like the FAINSA Gaudi: http://www.fainsa.com/en/index.php.

Wait a second, doesn't the G4500 have Brasil? So the Brasil is a FAINSA, not an Amaya? Then Greyhound Canada would have Brasil VIP, not Torino VIP. Aw man, I'm confused!

Yep, those four are what I assume we would get. Too soon to tell though.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Well if you had to choose one of those, which one would you choose? I love the Patriot but the Torino G meets the latest safety regulations in containment and 3-point seat belts. Greyhound uses the Patriot in their 102DL3 and the Brasil in their G4500, though they have the version of the Brasil with a full back and fixed headrests, apparently the first Gaudi.

 

[rickycourtney]

As you can see, the X3-45 window line is approximately 4 inches higher in relation to the floor in comparison to the D4505, assuming the Premier LS is positioned at the same height in the X3-45 as in the D4505. If you look at the seat cushioning you will see a horizontal line in the middle-upper part of the back about 2/3 the way before the headrest. On the X3-45, that line is below the bottom of the window, while on the D4505, that line is above. Anybody above 6' tall probably wouldn't notice.

I agree that the windows are placed up higher on the X3-45 than the D4505. I would assume that's because while the D4505 is taller, the X3-45 has more interior height. But I don't agree that "the windows are quite small by motorcoach standards"...in fact if you count the wraparound portion, they seem to be bigger than the D4505's windows.

You mention the seat height... remember Greyhound helped design the Premier seat and they designed it for use in the X3-45. I will point out that Greyhound did put an armrest on the window side to compensate for the height of the window and that having less of your body exposed to glass isn't a bad thing in a crash.

Transit operators might be exempt? That would suck! A motorcoach is a motorcoach, transit-operated motorcoaches should not be exempt, or else they should be forbidden to order motorcoaches! I guess that suggests GGT and NJT are exempt too even though they operate 3-hour-long transit routes.

So I went back and re-read the NHTSA rule... it turns out that over-the-road buses (characterized by an elevated passenger deck located over a baggage compartment) are subject to the rule... even if they are operated by a transit agency.

That sets up an interesting situation here in the Puget Sound:

• Sound Transit's route 512 runs from Everett to Seattle. It's a 61 minute, 30 mile journey. Along the way there are several freeway stations , so to accommodate passengers entering/exiting the route is assigned 60 foot articulated buses that have 2 doors. For the foreseeable future, those buses won't have seat belts.
• Sound Transit's route 590 runs from Tacoma to Seattle. It's a 68 minute, 33 mile journey. It doesn't make any stops along the way so it's assigned D4500CT buses. Any new buses will have to have seat belts.

Also worth mentioning that unlike a lot of transit agencies... Sound Transit's buses are only used on commuter routes. They aren't from a larger fleet used on urban routes.

4one? You means this? http://www.4one.com/type/motor-coach/.

That's just Amaya. Amaya Torino G, Brasil, Patriot, why are they not 4ONE? What's going on here? I'm understandably confused. Not sure what Pepito is, but I think it's a FAINSA spin-off. Looks a lot like the FAINSA Gaudi: http://www.fainsa.com/en/index.php.

Wait a second, doesn't the G4500 have Brasil? So the Brasil is a FAINSA, not an Amaya? Then Greyhound Canada would have Brasil VIP, not Torino VIP. Aw man, I'm confused!

As far as I can tell all the seat manufacturers are in bed with each other.

4one is a joint venture of Freedman Seating and USSC. Amaya has a distribution agreement with Freedman Seating for sales to the transit market. FAINSA is the "european partner" of Amaya.

At the end of the day most of 4one's seats are "rebadged" versions of a seat from another manufacturer.

I think for seating on Lynx's Prevost commuter coaches, they will probably use 4one, since it is an option, along with American Seating. Lynx uses 4one Gemini on the 2013-2014 Gillig BRTs and the 2013 Nova artics.

How long are these new commuter routes? The 4one Gemini could work for routes that are like 45-60 minutes long... but they don't look very comfortable (especially in a motorcoach running at freeway speeds).

Also what's your opinion of the Nova artics? I rode a Nova bus for the first time last month at Disney World... I was not impressed (I mean what's the deal with that stupid seat behind the drivers seat? Is that just for people who enjoy eating their kneecaps or attacking drivers??)

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Like many things in the bus industry, there seems to be many Catch 22s with these situations. Like the windows, for example. A single D4505 window should be larger than a single X3-45 window, the former has 8 passenger windows per side while the latter has 9. The X3-45 windows go up more, but the D4505 windows go down more. Going down more might be bad in an accident, but going up could also cause a "crushing" effect in an accident. The D4505 roof wraps down which could prove extra protection in a rollover accident compared to the X3-45. So, it's all many Catch 22s.

Same thing with the Scenicruiser. Great for views, not exactly so safe in an accident. I heard dome cars on trains aren't exactly well-protected either, but you get the views. You gain something you lose something. I sure am in no position to make judgment on these balances.

102A3 does have massive windows: https://www.flickr.com/photos/gerarddonnelly/4407319949/sizes/l.

I don't know how much Greyhound put into the Premier design. They definitely supported the Premier but I have not seen evidence that they directly helped design it. Now word on the street is that they are not buying Premiers again due to endless passenger complaints.

That Sound Transit situation is indeed interesting. I heard their units are actually split between KCM, Pierce, and Community Transit ownership. Only Pierce has D4500CLs. The current look of things is that motorcoaches are going to be safer than transit buses. Actually, even without seat belts, that would make sense from an observer's POV. Motorcoaches sit high above the road and have thicker walls than transit buses. North American motorcoaches generally have double walls for the air vents in between. Plus they have more axles, longer wheelbases, (generally) bigger fenders, and heavier weight. In an accident, it is difficult to fathom a low-floor transit being safer than a motorcoach.

This is why I find motorcoaches to be "overkill" for short routes. I rode the AC Transit LA from Richmond (CA) to San Francisco during morning rush. There were less than 10 people aboard. It was a 2003 D4500 (#6052) built right before MCI went bankrupt.

Yeah, the Novas have a weird seat behind the driver. I saw that in Chicago on the 56, CTA has some LFS. If you sit there, you're basically staring at the black divider.

 

[rickycourtney]

That Sound Transit situation is indeed interesting. I heard their units are actually split between KCM, Pierce, and Community Transit ownership. Only Pierce has D4500CLs.

Actually, Sound Transit owns all of their buses. But they contract with King County Metro, Pierce Transit and Community Transit operate and maintain the buses. All of the D4500CLs are operated and maintained by Pierce Transit.

The current look of things is that motorcoaches are going to be safer than transit buses. Actually, even without seat belts, that would make sense from an observer's POV. Motorcoaches sit high above the road and have thicker walls than transit buses. North American motorcoaches generally have double walls for the air vents in between. Plus they have more axles, longer wheelbases, (generally) bigger fenders, and heavier weight. In an accident, it is difficult to fathom a low-floor transit being safer than a motorcoach.

I understand your logic... but the facts don't back it up. There is a lower chance that you will die in a transit bus crash compared to a crash in other buses.From NHTSA's final rule:

This final rule excludes transit buses from today’s lap/shoulder seat belt requirements because fatality data for urban transit buses differ significantly from that of other buses with a GVWR greater than 11,793 kg (26,000 lb). We believe this difference is due in part to the stop-and-go manner of transit bus operation. Updated FARS data from 2000-2009 continue to show that for all bus body types with a GVWR greater than 11,793 kg (26,000 lb), transit buses have the fewest fatalities at 8.2 percent or 23 out of a total of 281. These same data show that there were 20 fatal crashes involving occupants of urban transit buses, resulting in fatalities of 11 drivers and 12 were passengers. Thus, fatal transit bus crashes involve about one fatality, on average. In summary, there are many fewer total fatalities and fatalities per crash for transit buses, and thus a significantly lower risk than in the buses covered by this final rule.

That being said... there isn't specific data about transit buses involved in accidents on highways.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

But that comparison isn't exactly fair because it pits transits overall against motorcoaches overall. Like the rule says, it's due to the stop-and-go nature of transits. Motorcoaches operate at much higher speeds over much longer distances than transits. Motorcoaches might also go through many different kinds of terrain and weather in rapid succession. A good example would be the Denver-Reno which goes through mountains, forests, plains, and deserts all on one route. It drives at slow speeds over Berthoud Pass but hits 75 mph on the desert.

The point with Sound Transit is that they are using transits on highways and not on city streets. Fortunately, they do not need to run Denver-Reno.

If you run, you'll probably stumble more than if you walked.

 

[rickycourtney]

Since you frequently ask about engines... it got me thinking about the alternative options MCI offers on the D4500. They have both CNG and diesel-electric hybrid versions. Installing either would be a good public relations move for Greyhound but I don't see them doing it.

CNG would require a huge investment in infrastructure and would require the loss of a luggage bay and it's potential GPX revenue.

Diesel-electric hybrid could work... but considering the amount of highway miles these buses get... it would take a long time to save enough fuel to recoup the additional cost of the hybrid system.

As an aside, I fully expect Sound Transit's next motorcoach order to use either CNG or Hybrid engines.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

CNG would be impractical for Greyhound because those units would be unable to use Greyhound's own established diesel reserves in major refueling stations like Reno and Oakland. Blocking out an entire luggage bay would be very disadvantageous because that would reduce Greyhound units to Megabus luggage capacity and reduce GPX revenue to zero.

Hybrids suffer the problems you say. According to NJT, a D4500CTH costs $880,000; NJT managed to lower that to $840,000 with negotiations. Also, the D4500CTH only comes with the Cummins ISL which is a small transit engine that is underpowered for motorcoaches. It's OK for running the streets, but at highway speeds Greyhound drivers would have to kick it into high RPM or over-RPM just to keep up. An ISL-powered New Flyer XD40 transit tops out at 45 mph, according to Altoona Bus Testing. A D4500 is significantly larger and heavier than a XD40.

While Altoona might not be the best source for specific information to compare, they did say the XD40 never managed to exceed 46 mph.

 

[rickycourtney]

Well the diesel engine doesn't need to be as big when it's paired with a electric motor. The electric motor does the heavy lifting in regards to bringing the coach from a full stop up to 5mph at which point the diesel engine plays a bigger role.

That first part of acceleration is the hardest part and requires the most torque. That's why a bigger diesel engine isn't necessary.

Hybrid buses are totally capable of highway speeds. The New Flyer DE60LF buses here frequently hit 65 mph.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Really? Then the XD40 must be pathetic.

Here's the XDE40: http://www.altoonabustest.com/buses/350.

The XD40: http://www.altoonabustest.com/buses/416.

And the tiny D30LF: http://www.altoonabustest.com/buses/reports/275.pdf?1268425149. (Awesome MPG!)

Here's the D4500CTH: http://www.altoonabustest.com/buses/136.

Yep, the XDE40 seems to perform better than the XD40 but the D4500CTH performed worse than the diesel D4500.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

So we know the White G and the Blue G, right? Then I just found a Yellow G! Look: https://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/11165020936/sizes/l.

Running for Tornado Internacional. And still has warped parts!

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Well if you had to choose one of those, which one would you choose? I love the Patriot but the Torino G meets the latest safety regulations in containment and 3-point seat belts. Greyhound uses the Patriot in their 102DL3 and the Brasil in their G4500, though they have the version of the Brasil with a full back and fixed headrests, apparently the first Gaudi.

I like the Patriot too. It looks good, along with the Pepito. The last motorcoach I rode on, which was a Van Hool, had seats similar to these. Not sure if they were the same seat model though.

http://www.mearsbussellers.com/Gallery.aspx

I think for seating on Lynx's Prevost commuter coaches, they will probably use 4one, since it is an option, along with American Seating. Lynx uses 4one Gemini on the 2013-2014 Gillig BRTs and the 2013 Nova artics.

How long are these new commuter routes? The 4one Gemini could work for routes that are like 45-60 minutes long... but they don't look very comfortable (especially in a motorcoach running at freeway speeds).

Also what's your opinion of the Nova artics? I rode a Nova bus for the first time last month at Disney World... I was not impressed (I mean what's the deal with that stupid seat behind the drivers seat? Is that just for people who enjoy eating their kneecaps or attacking drivers??)

It depends on the routes. Lynx has eight routes that are eligible or will be eligible for motorcoaches. Some of those routes take a total of 40-45 minutes, while others run for over an hour. Some of the routes in question do not use the highway and are limited stop routes.

The majority of the routes though use the highway (I-4). The Nova artics we have are hybrids, so they can vary. Sometimes I see them and other times I don't. Sometimes the 16 year old D60s doing the work, while the Novas are in the garage getting work done on them for something.

Lynx has two NABI artics (built in 2010) that I haven't seen in the last few months. Sources telling me that those two buses could be retired early, due to ongoing unreliability issues.

Lynx also have the same front seat on our four artics. I don't know why it's there, but I guess it's an option for Nova. Lynx ordering from Nova is what actually may have helped their chances of getting Prevost, due to the obvious reasons.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

The Van Hool for sale in the pictures you posted appears to have American Seating. I'm not a big fan of riding in the current American Seating, the Premier is worst but the other 2003, 2095, etc., are not that great either. JMO.

Here's National Seating 4210S, a very popular charter seat in the late 1990s/early 2000s : http://www.lasvegasbussales.com/inventory/photos/lrg_MCI-102EL3-C60123-seats.JPG.

Lots of competition right now between American Seating and Amaya-Astron Seating. National is being kicked by the wayside which seems surprising since their seats have a reputation of comfort. Right now if National wants to get back in they probably should campaign for the next order from Greyhound; Greyhound's currently angry at American Seating for the Painful Premier and is now looking to buy Amaya or National.

 

[rickycourtney]

Like I said... Greyhound helped design the "painful Premier". Heck David Leach is even in a promotional video saying so:

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Interesting that the video was made in 2012 but you already see a Blue G. I think that was #40205 which was merely repainted and later destroyed in "The Dark Knight Rises". They also had a Blue DL3 in it #6077. The DL3s and Blue G's don't have the Premier. They also used a D4505 as the feature instead of the X3-45.

I believe the donated bus was donated for crash testing, not to American Seating. I don't doubt that Greyhound's engineers helped American Seating, but I think nobody tried to break it in and then sit in it.

Perhaps they helped design it but they only tested it for safety and not for comfort. Or at least not for comfort after breaking in. There's rumors that Greyhound will order from National or Amaya next time. If the G4500 was a major disaster for equipment, the Premier was a major disaster for seating, especially since many are now chipped, cracked, or warped. They've only been around 5 years. Greyhound dropped the G4500 even though they helped design it. No one can say they won't drop the Premier now since they're not just painful, they're also low-quality.

 

[rickycourtney]

I mean I'll give American Seating credit... at the time of its introduction the Premier was a pretty revolutionary design. The seatbelts offered protection to passengers who chose to use them, while the containment technology still offered some level of protection to unbelted passengers. But fast forward to today and as the NHTSA rules go into several other manufacturers have seats with both seatbelts and containment... and they are all more comfortable than the Premier or the "improved" Premier LS.

Personally if I was buying a bus... I'd go with the Amaya A-2TEN. I've sat in the seat several times and always found it to be very comfortable.

I know you're a fan of the Torino G Plus, but I'm a bit skeptical. I think the side mounted seat belt design is awkward and I prefer having a seperate head rest over a high back seat. I've also heard it's the most expensive Amaya seat. But I've never sat in the Torino G Plus, maybe that would change my mind.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I'm actually only a supporter of the Torino G Plus. Like you, I have never sat in it, and I'm definitely not a "fan" though of course I simply have no opinion.

If you ever ride Arrow & Black Hills Stages, they use Torino G Plus.

What I see is that American Seating took the lead in safety but lost out on quality. Now they can easily get pummeled by Amaya-Astron with their A2-TEN and Torino G Plus. But the wild card is National Seating. They were the leader of the industry for years. When you bought a 102DL3, the standard seat was National 4210A. When you bought a 102EL3, the standard seat was National 4210S. Even in the early J4500 days, the standard seat was National 4210S. Then the Brasil, apparently a joint venture of FAINSA and Amaya, came in and wiped out the 4210. Apparently Greyhound sped that along by ordering large numbers of Brasils for the G4500.

I'm not sure if Greyhound Canada has Brasil VIP or Torino VIP. Torino Standard is also often confused with Brasil, AFAIK. These are Brasils: https://www.flickr.com/photos/thetransitcamera/14558382441/sizes/l.

Freedman rebranded the Brasil for their own sale: http://www.freedmanseating.com/seats_and_accessories/coach_seats/freedman_brasil/.

 

[rickycourtney]

I think more important than what Greyhound purchases is what the motorcoaches manufacturers choose as their "standard" seats and what they choose to list as optional seats.

In that regard it seems Amaya is doing something right. Amaya seats come standard on the D & J series coaches. Heck all of the "listed" optional seats on the J series are Amaya.

I would imagine most buyers, especially small charter operators, just choose to get whatever comes standard.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I heard though the grapevine (GTE) that there's many, many unlisted options and many coaches can be ordered with all kinds of things. I'm sure MCI would be more than happy to install National if someone actually ordered it. The problem is, I haven't heard about a new order with National for a long time. Many of Peter Pan's J's have them.

Any news on the Van Hools for BoltBus Seattle? I guess that was a rumor with no basis. I did fina a trip report on the H3-45 running Vancouver-Seattle: http://www.accidentaltravelwriter.net/accidental-travel-writer/2014/07/travelogue-how-not-to-travel-from-vancouver-to-seattle.html.

Those seats are National 4210S. That's a 2001 ex-Coach America H3-45, painted plain white. I guess the blue one would have had more legroom. Here's the interior photo: http://www.accidentaltravelwriter.net/.a/6a0148c6f68c01970c01a3fd281c63970b-pi.

 

[rickycourtney]

Oh I have no doubt that you can order any seat type you wish... It's just that Amaya is the standard seat and the "listed" optional seat in the J series brochure.

Provost takes a different approach. The brochure for the X series and H series both simply says that Amaya, American and National seats are all options.

I haven't seen any Van Hool coaches in BoltBus livery. I'll keep my eyes open but it might have been just a rumor.

That's an interesting blog post. It's good that while he didn't want to take Greyhound, he ended up having a good experience. I'm curious to see what the interior of those H3-45 buses look like now that they've been repainted. I'm curious if they just got a fresh coat of paint and had some seats removed or if they did more like replacing the seat covers with leather (although those seat covers look pretty new), removing the television monitors and replacing that grungy headliner.

Regardless they are good looking and good sounding buses. Overall a nice addition to the fleet especially when you consider Greyhound probably got a good bargain on them.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I don't think the seat covers of those H3-45s are that new. They look newer from the back because passengers sit on the other side. Texas DMV says those units are 2001s, don't know if they have a DPF or not. Coach America went bankrupt and I don't think we should overestimate their maintenance efforts in those final years.

On another note, here's another trip report I found, this time an Americanos D4505, 2006, FAINSA seats and curtains too. Seems like a very grungy headliner. Very awkward to see a motorcoach with curtains but open parcel racks and no monitors.

Here: http://stophavingaboringlife.com/taking-a-ride-on-the-greyhound/#comment-483472.