Greyhound seats and fleet questions

[mightyjoe1201]

Thanks. I'm glad gli doesn't buy vanhools. I've yet to hear drivers say anything nice about them. Including a coworker. He said his dad had one just before he lost his bus co.

I still find it hard to believe greyhound bought prevost. I've never liked those things.

You know how long ago Volvo took over prevost? It surprised me last time I was on one and saw the Volvo name on everything but the outside.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I like Prevost to a certain degree, though MCI should never have let Prevost catch up to them so easily. Prevost was bought by Volvo in 1995, according to Wikipedia. You're right, the Van Hools suck. I've yet to have a good ride in a Van Hool. Drivers loathe them.

GLC doesn't have a single Van Hool so as I know. GLI has a few here and there, mostly near Chicago, Phoenix, San Antonio.

If MCI hadn't f--ked up with the G4500, then wouldn't have gone bankrupt, and they wouldn't have messed up with the D4505 either, because the D4505 was designed while MCI was bankrupt. MCI apparently reduced the rivets and possibly other parts in an attempt to get themselves out of bankruptcy, so the D4505 ended up being worse than the 102DL3 though still much better than the G4500. By then Prevost was already moving ahead with the X3-45.

OTOH, Prevost products don't seem that great either. I just stumbled upon this photo: http://images.travelerstoday.com/data/images/full/2595/greyhound-bus.jpg?w=600, which shows a GLC XL-II that hit a high curb, lost paint, and then started rusting.

Hitting a high curb is understandable. Losing paint is understandable. But rusting? Unreasonable to me, what say you? This GLC D4505 lost a patch of paint, but no rust: https://www.flickr.com/photos/dj_surf_lfs/11764928585/sizes/l.

 

[rickycourtney]

Joe-

I also suggest checking out the Wiki page for the Canadian Public Transportation Discussion Board: http://www.cptdb.ca/wiki

If you're a public transportation geek like me it's a very interesting quick reference. Just a word of warning... it contains a lot of original research and is poorly cited (both no-no's on a true Wiki page)... so take the information with the appropriate grain of salt.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

Rusting? Really? That's ridiculous considering prevost is Canadian.

A lot of companies seem to have cut quality over the years. Usually it's when they are having financial trouble. Eventually even MCI will work it out as long as they stay profitable.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I see rusting along the edges where the paint had worn off.

MCI was originally Canadian too, though now they're American.

I don't know if Prevost cut quality or not, but Greyhound does run vehicles harder than anyone else. Greyhound runs up to 150,000 miles a year per vehicle and their average is 130,000 according to a new release. According to the American Bus Association, the average American motorcoach runs about 50,000 miles a year.

So a coach that is good for everyone else could still falter in Greyhound service. There's plenty of coaches than can impress, but it's hard to find a coach that can fight. MCI ought to figure it out before Prevost kills their D4505 with the X3-45. They were getting good again in 2010 but then switched to Cummins-only for the D4505, putting that model in trouble that it may never recover from.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

I just figured being a Canadian co they would be sure it wouldn't rust when paint gets scraped off. Guess anything is possible when buses get run hard like greyhound does.

Unfortunately there's not many engine choices anymore. Caterpillar stopped on road engines cause they didn't want to price it too high to meet epa requirements. Detroit isn't offered at a cheap enough price to outside vehicle manufacturers. Also a lot of manufacturers don't want the Mercedes companies to have access to their own technology. I know that happened in the trucking world. I may be wrong here but I believe Cummins is the only stand alone engine co left.

Personally I would rather Detroit or cat.

It might take greyhound and other companies to push MCI to offer another engine. Though it would probably cost more. Does MCI parent co offer any engines that they build?

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

MCI is 10% owned by Daimler, the parent company of Mercedes, Detroit Diesel, Chrysler, and Mitsubishi Fuso. They could certainly cooperate. MCI's offers the J4500 with Detroit DD13 engine, which has Mercedes roots. But they don't offer the DD13 with the D4505, which is somewhat surprising.

I asked MCI what was going on. They said the DD13 is not offered in the D4505 and is "not being developed" for the D4505, because it doesn't meet Buy America requirements due to components made in Germany by Daimler. Of course Greyhound, as a private sector company, has no obligation to Buy America. The same can be said for most other D4505 operators, like Jefferson or Indian Trails.

A lot of people didn't like the CAT C13 ACERT in the D4505, though I doubt the Cummins ISX12 is that much better. Altoona tests showed the C13 ACERT to get noticeably better MPG than the ISX12.

Also surprising is that Arrow Stages' J4500s have Cummins ISX12 engines, even though DD13 is available, though that might be done for fleet commonality with their D4505s. Drivers agree the DD13 is better. Even in a MCI publicity release for the J4500, the test driver said he would have preferred the DD13 over the ISX12 that his demo had.

My theory is that since the D4505 is selling poorly, MCI probably doesn't care to get the DD13 into its engine compartment, even if that might boost sales. Instead, they're just focusing on selling the D4500CT to transit agencies, which must follow Buy America, and thus must buy Cummins.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

I have to check on this, but I had heard thru the grape vine that Cummins isn't truly made in America. Only assembled here. I'll let you know what I find our.

I'm sure if greyhound really wanted they could get a Detroit in the 4505. May just have to pay more.

Between the isx and isl Cummins I'd rather the isx. Its a bit better and has more get up and go.

Never knew Daimler had a stake in MCI. Learned something new. Thanks.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

As for the cat, it's normally a more reliable engine from a driver's point of view. Only problem is the parts. Very few after market parts other then filters.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Can't see why the owner can't get parts from CAT or a MCI Service Center. How's the power?

A news release on WSJ says Daimler took the 10% stake on MCI in 2012 when they killed Orion. MCI is primarily owned by some company called KPS Capital Partners, no idea who they are. For more info see: http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304811304577366040176268340.

Don't exactly know where Cummins is made but I know they have some plants in China. Volvo is actually made in Hagerstown, Maryland, so it fulfills Buy America, but the D13 is far too big for transit buses, so every transit around is now powered by a Cummins ISL9 or variants.

Yeah, Greyhound can get what they want if they pay for it, except it's probably going to be very expensive considering they would have to pay for all the R&D cost of putting a DD13 in a D4505, which I don't know how high it could be. Greyhound doesn't exactly want to do that, last time they did that was with the G4500 debacle. MCI doesn't want to do it themselves because the D4505 is selling poorly and offering the DD13 might not make sales better. Greyhound does have that D4505 order hanging in the balance.

Wikipedia's page on Greyhound is wrong with D4505 numbers. According to Texas DMV, Greyhound has 105 D4505s from the 2010 order, not 88. There were 108, but 3 burned up. They are #86300-86407, of which #86337, 86379, and 86381 have burned up. The latter two caused by blown tires, the other one unknown.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

Yeah, parts can be gotten rite from cat or the vehicle maker but they are still expensive. Unlike Detroit and Cummins where you can get parts made by other companies besides the engine makers themselves. I know I was able to get parts for my Cummins isx from other manufacturers when I had my truck. Every co I worked for with cats couldn't do that.

I haven't driven the c13 accert at all but I had driven the c10 thru c12 pre accert engines. Power was very good except the c10. It was the equivalent of the Cummins m11. Had no power especially on hills. I think the highest horsepower was 350 or so.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

I was on Cummins website. Managed to find a listing of all manufacturing plants and parts supply warehouse locations. Was gonna give the link but can't figure out how to do that without typing it out. May try that tomorrow.

It showed the isx blocks and heads ate made in Indiana but all the other components come from all over the world. At least that's what I got from it. When I get time tomorrow I'll try to send that link. Its too long for me yo remember to type. Plus I'm tired and have to get up before the freaking birds. Lol.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Just copy and paste the link, but I have to go to HTML every time I want to post a link. I think I found it though: http://www.cummins.com/cmi/navigationAction.do?nodeId=9&siteId=1&menuId=1002.

Yep, it looks like the other Cummins parts come from all over the world. Too confusing for me to get it clear.

I've been trying to find what MCI did to downgrade the D4500 when the went bankrupt. The original D4500 was the same as the 102DL3, it was renamed in 2001. It appears that MCI changed from a riveted to a bonded roof in 2004, the year they went bankrupt. That was also when MCI changed the name to D4500CL. Soon, in 2005, they came out with the D4505 and around that time, the D4500CT as well.

The D4500, D4500CL, and D4500CT all use the 102DL3 VIN prefix, 1M8P, but the D4505 uses a new prefix 1M86. See YARTS fleet list: http://www.yarts.com/rfp/2012/ExhC%20Fleet.pdf. Those say "D4500" but are actually all D4500CT.

Currently, the D4500CL and D4500CT are offered, the former "unofficially", in that it's not posted on the website, you have to order it to get it. They both have the bonded roof like the D4505, but are also available with the rubber bumpers, fenders, and thick rub rails carried over from the 102DL3 which are advertised to be more durable than the same components on the D4505. The problem is, they still only come with Cummins engines.

Here's a D4500CT in Golden Gate Transit service: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kStoUXEwo7c. Other than the headlights and rear end, it looks more like a 102DL3 than a D4505, and has the durable rubber components mentioned above except the rub rails.

I like the GGT livery, but don't know about the red wheel hubs, though I guess with red Cummins engines, it somewhat fits the whole deal. And it does sound just like Greyhound's Cummins-powered D4505s.

 

[rickycourtney]

Greyhound ordered 130 D4505 buses from MCI in April 2013. Any idea if they were all delivered?

Totally off topic... I've spent the last week at Disney World with my fiancée. It's my first trip here and its an impressive operation in terms of transportation. A fleet of more than 300 transit buses, ferryboats, more than a dozen monorail trains and a transfer service that uses motorcoaches (unfortunately all Van Hool) to transport guests between the airport, cruise ship terminal and the resort. Also took a trip over to Kennedy Space Center where they use a huge fleet of D4500 & D4505 coaches for tours. So it was a busy week with plenty for this transportation, space and Disney geek to enjoy.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Greyhound employees say they didn't take delivery of all 130. Texas DMV only lists #86503-86567. But #FL86501 and #GA86373 were both spotted and photographed/videotaped. #MA86575 is a D4500CT. Greyhound's next confirmed number is #86650, a 2014 X3-45. I think Greyhound left a gap in the middle for the D4505s. But most of the 86400 numbers haven't been filled yet, only up to #MD86407 which was reportedly running Washington-Ocean City by a Greyhound employee.

That's all I have. The state-owned units probably aren't listed on Texas DMV. But the gaps are very large and suspicious. Huge gap in the 86400s and another from the late 86500s through to the first half of the 86600s. I don't know what's up. Will have to ask the driver next time I get to ride a Greyhound.

Regarding CATs, GLC bought some CAT 3176B-powered DL3s in 1997: http://www.busdrawings.com/greyhoundca/102dl3/1997dl3/index.htm.

Most have been retired and sold or scrapped except #1003. As stated in a previous post, #999 is now privately-owned. Anyone know how the 3176B was?

 

[mightyjoe1201]

Yep. That's the page. I use my phone for everything till I can get another computer. My phone won't let me copy and paste.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Photos just posted on GTE by Joe Caronetti show the following GLI units spotted in Dallas:

102DL3 #6143 signed DALLAS, TX presumably Sked 7208 Houston-Dallas (he said he rode it)

102DL3 #85784 signed ATHENS, GA presumably Sked 1556 Dallas-Atlanta

D4505 #OK86388 signed DALLAS, TX presumably Sked 7327 Oklahoma City-Dallas

G4500 (Blue) #7167 signed CHICAGO, IL presumably Sked 1500 Dallas-Chicago

He said he was in Houston for the APTA Expo and took a day trip to Dallas on Greyhound. All the photos were taken in the daytime. #85784 was followed immediately by #7167, which suggest the former was 1556 departing at 12:30 PM with the latter following at 12:40 PM, the former might have been 10 minutes late.

It is unlikely he would have spotted any runs in the morning or evening because he was on a day trip from Houston and the ride to/from Houston is 4 hours.

 

[rickycourtney]

So interestingly the D4500 & D4505 coaches used by NASA are equipped with transit style seating and no restrooms. I think the exact model is "The Angel" from Freedman Seating. The trips on these buses are fairly short (most under 15 miles round-trip), but conducted tour style so the transit seating makes since.

I was actually pretty impressed with the VanHool C2045 coaches used on the Disney's Magical Express. They're one of the few operators who don't use the standard Van Hool "Body Line" seats, instead they upgraded to Amaya A-2TEN seats with seatbelts which were very comfortable. The buses also had all LED interior lighting, that had a nice low-level green light for when all of the other lights were turned off. The ride was also pretty smooth (not as good as a X3-45) and quiet. Pretty nice bus, it's just a shame it will turn to junk in a couple of years (at which time I'm sure Disney will have long retired them for something better).

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

That reminds me of Brewster's current tourist 102A3s, which have padded transit-style seating: http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/brewster/brewster_638int.jpg.

The dashboard and exterior still look the same:
http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/brewster/brewster_638driver.jpg,
http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/brewster/brewster_638-4.jpg.

Guess what else the Canadians got from MCI? A D4505 that looks like this (they actually have two): http://cptdb.ca/wiki/images/3/39/Saskatchewan_Transportation_Company_791-a.jpg.



Yep, most or all of the Van Hools now have the green LED "mood" lighting. I still find it pointless to upgrade a Van Hool considering their low lifespan. Any news on Greyhound's Van Hool leases for BoltBus Seattle?

 

[rickycourtney]

Here are a couple of pictures I snapped while in Orlando:

The Disney Magical Express buses have are wrapped with a retro art deco livery with faux silver sides. As a matter of fact all of Disney's buses, including the transit buses, have art deco inspired liveries. It's a sharp look: http://cdn.wdwmagic.com/imgstore/ElementGalleryItems/transportation/Fullsize/Bus-Transportation_Full_18026.jpg

Here are a couple of pictures of the interior of KSC buses I could find online:

http://www.lukeburrage.com/travelpodcast/20120231/20120231-2.jpg

http://img1.10bestmedia.com/Images/Photos/141748/kennedy-space-center-bus-tour-p1470336_54_990x660_201405312123.jpg

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

That interior looks weird like that, but OK. That must be an old D4500 or 102DL3, it has the old full-width wheelchair door which swings open and has a remote control inside. Those were always factory-installed AFAIK. Greyhound's 6500s and non-second-hand 6600s have them.

As for that Van Hool, I wish they could have fit the livery with the coach better. If disregarding the window line, it almost looks like Greyhound's current livery with different colors. Greyhound's current livery is a "retro" one inspired by their 1920s livery; at least they look very similar in photos. Really doesn't fit a Van Hool so well.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Another door failure on the X3-45: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=801270353227701&set=o.117755058267776&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xpa1%2Fv%2Ft35.0-12%2F10643139_801268796561190_290330236_o.jpg%3Foh%3D2b06f7aef1087b60f83c9447fec566b7%26oe%3D544E55A9%26__gda__%3D1414425718_66a546489d87708101eded45d42a3360&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xpa1%2Fv%2Ft34.0-12%2F10637658_801268796561190_290330236_n.jpg%3Foh%3D2a6756d2fecbeaf92561edb2320e8ef7%26oe%3D544EAFC8%26__gda__%3D1414445911_4304f4e7ddd4782dbd80169cbda8c965&size=1536%2C2048.

This one looks like it opened but failed to close tightly.

Perhaps the D4505 isn't $hit after all. Kick out that Crappy Cummins!

 

[rickycourtney]

Yup. I'm sure the doors on MCI buses never have problems. < /sarcasm >

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Still better than Prevost when it comes to doors! Unless you want to include the White G4500 which does have many door problems, but I meant the D4505. I'd like to see a bunch of MCI door failures on the D4505 if one wants to assert the X3-45 doesn't have worse doors than the D4505. Obviously, I'm not happy about the D4505's Crappy Cummins either.

Now of course, if one wants pure reliability, the hand-cranked door on the 102A3, MC-12, and before would be better than anything today.

 

[rickycourtney]

I'm not asserting anything. I'm simply saying that finding a few isolated incidents posted online are not evidence of a rampant problem.

It's just as absurd as finding pictures of D4505's that have burned and concluding that all D4505's have problems with spontaneous combustion.

Bear in mind that these buses get rattled to hell in the tens of thousands of miles they travel each year. I'm not surprised the door latches occasionally have issues. I'd also not be surprised if other bus models have occasional door latch issues.

Also, why have you concluded that Cummins engines are crappy? Because Altoona testing found that they have slightly lower fuel economy? Altoona's fuel economy testing should be taken with a grain of salt, they're not nearly as scientific as the EPA tests you see for cars.

Greyhound is a big company, capable of placing big orders. If they really wanted Detroit Diesel engines, they would have been able to get one.