Greyhound seats and fleet questions

[tp49]

One way carrier's that can, get around the living expense problem at NYC, is to have none, or few driver's home-based there...

They work out of the "away" base, and depending on the distance, either turnaround the same day, or after a rest at a hotel or the dorm. Now as has been discussed here, that has been expanded to the buses....the buses too, are based "away", and turnaround at NYC. The price of real estate has always been bad in The City, but lately it has been astronomical....too expensive to operate a parking or servicing garage for buses.

My company's driver's that come to NYC, are based mainly in Kingston or Albany, and some in Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Montreal, Gloversville, and Oneonta.

The Buffalo, Rochester, and Montreal driver's stayover at a hotel, the rest turnaround. There are only a few based in NYC.....

Our garages are in Kingston and Albany. We clean them out at the terminal in NYC, and send them back. The ones coming in on the longer trips like Toronto and Montreal, will sometimes go over to the Academy garage in Hoboken for full servicing.

Didn't Greyhound used to have some kind of garage or facility on the west side near the Hudson? I seem to remember it when I would go to the Intrepid or Javits Center as a kid.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Yeah, they did. It was the site of a famous G4500 explosion. Vermont Transit Lines #40204 was pulling into the garage with only the driver, when it started smoking. The driver parked by the curb and jumped out. The motorcoach proceeded to explode, sending smoke everywhere. The incident happened in 2008, before Vermont merged with Greyhound.

#40204 was a 2003 MCI(-Dina) G4500 3BMXSMRA63S080458 powered by a 370hp Detroit Diesel 60-R 12.7L.

The lot was leased and Greyhound decided they couldn't pay the higher lease rates anymore, so they pulled out. I don't know if it was a Maintenance Center or just a lot.

More info on the D4505. It was introduced in 2005. It had a curb weight of 35,100 lbs and gross weight of 48,000 lbs, same as the 102DL3 and original D4505. 2007, it got the new rear end. 2008, it got the raised deck that reduced headroom. Same year, gross weight raised to 50,000 lbs, curb weight omitted from spec sheet. Had Detroit 60 EGR 14L offered until as late as Greyhound's 2011 model year (2010 build year) special order. Had CAT C13 ACERT up to 2009 model year. Offers Cummins ISL8.9 380hp, not the 330hp I had said.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

Did they ever figure out what caused the bus to explode? Catching fire is one thing but explosions don't usually happen to buses.

 

[railiner]

Greyhound built in 1968, what is now the MTA Michael Quill Depot. It was a major garage that could do any repair. It could probably have built a bus, had they been given the materials.... It occupies the entire city block between 11th and 12th Avenues, 40th and 41st Streets. It has four bus levels, counting the rooftop parking lot. It has space for regional offices, a dispatch center, and a two level driver's dormitory.

When Greyhound Lines was divested in the late 80's from the Greyhound Corporation, the valuable property was not included, and was sold to the MTA. Since the MTA has no use for the dorm, Greyhound has leased it from them, and continues to operate it.

Greyhound then leased two lots on the west end of the blocks on 12th avenue, between 29th, and 31st street, adjacent to the LIRR West Side Yard.. They could fully service and fuel buses there, and had a small mechanical force to do minor repairs. They also had room to park about 100 or so buses, between the two lots. They lost their lease their a few years ago, and started turning everything at The Port. They also park between 20 and 35 or so buses over at the Academy lot in Hoboken, NJ. Occasionally, they dump lavs there and get fuel, but usually, they just turn buses if possible. They employ a handful of mechanics, at the Port to do very minor repairs.....things like lights, wiper's, etc....

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Well, #40204 caught on fire, and the fire went down the fuel line, reached the fuel tank, and it exploded. There you go.

Sad situation in NYD but can be fixed by moving units and drivers out, though that would possibly require more units, which Greyhound currently doesn't have.

Now I've heard Cummins isn't that bad and might not be much worse than the Volvo now. Because the J4500 with the Cummins ISX12 was tested to get 8.8 mpg average, in MCI propaganda. Not sure what Greyhound will order next. If the D4505 can get rid of its fuel consumption issues, I would root for it over the X3-45, which has run into problem after problem recently. The extra 5" length of the D4505 means a tiny bit more legroom, and the windows are bigger, which I like.

 

[rickycourtney]

To answer your earlier question... if I was buying buses for Greyhound... I wouldn't buy anything at this point. Nothing on the market seems right for the job. As a matter of fact I would be working with MCI and Prevost to develop a updated line haul coach.

That being said... if they got desperate and just needed to add some more buses as a stop gap... I would buy more X3-45's.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

That's exactly what Greyhound is doing right now. Buying nothing. And forcing White G's into service. And also running the $hit out of the X3-45s. Good idea? I don't know. Doesn't seem to be working particularly well.

Greyhound stated they would have an elite blue fleet by 2016. That's not that far away. There's still too many White G's hanging around. And they are in horrible condition. They can't be rebuilt. What is Greyhound going to do?

Then there's those rumors of Greyhound leasing Van Hools. You know, if I needed temporary equipment fast, I would lease cheap Van Hools as well, not buy X3-45s. Why would I buy X3-45s for my permanent fleet when they're having trouble right now? I would wait for things to get better.

See any Greyhound Van Hools in Seattle? I heard they were being sent over there for BoltBus service. BoltBus is Greyhound's testbed. If the Van Hools do well with Bolt, Greyhound might lease more for their regular fleet. I doubt they will order them outright, but anything is possible right now.

Also, if I were Greyhound right now, I would rather work with my old friends at MCI to get the D4505 more efficient, than to work with Prevost in an attempt to make them more durable, something that likely won't happen because the X3-45 is already overweight.

 

[rickycourtney]

I've only heard of some very minor problems with the X3-45's... am I missing something?

Honestly if the rumors are true and Greyhound cancelled an order with MCI due to quality control issues... why would they want to work with them any more than Prevost?

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I'm going out on a hunch, but it appears the fuel efficiency was a big reason why Greyhound suspended (not cancelled) the order with MCI. As for quality control, again, it appears the problem is more with Cummins than with MCI. The only D4505 I've ridden that actually rode very rough was #86544, driven by a trainee named Loewy, which was also a very loud coach. The other ones were not too bad and every 86300-series I've ridden was extraordinarily smooth, even beat-up #86307. Those have the Detroit 60 EGR 14L, so perhaps the Crappy Cummins has to do with ruining the D4505 more than raising the deck.

I don't believe a hole in the roof, doors getting jammed, Volvo engine sucking up oil, and fender flares falling off can be considered "minor" problems for the X3-45. The D4505 has caught on fire a few times, but the X3-45 has had at least 1 fire as well, and 2 of the D4505 fires were caused by blown tires that would have also burned up the X3-45. The other D4505 fire was an engine fire that could have been caused by either EGR malfunction or not checking fluids. A certified mechanic told me the EGR and SCR creates gases up to 1500 degrees, and cannot be controlled by the driver. Even with fluids topped off, the EGR could have burned the coach.

Now the D4505 comes standard with Amerax fire suppression. So no 86500s have burned. It's likely they do still guzzle fuel. I don't see other major problems with the D4505.

There's currently a divide in Greyhound between pro-Prevost and anti-Prevost. I hope you can understand not everybody likes the X3-45 as much as you do. Kit didn't like it. I think it's OK, but not great. Not saying that I like the D4505 either, considering their recent troubles. Just saying they're more of less the same now. I think MCI is currently begging Greyhound not to go to Prevost, and with old "connections", they're stalling and hoping to get the D4505 (or D4500CT) to burn less fuel before Greyhound loses patience. This stalling does mean they'll have to order a ton of buses at once again if they want to make 2016 all-blue without shortages.

 

[rickycourtney]

Swad- I don't doubt that there are X3-45 units out there that have had problems. But you're citing circumstantial evidence as proof that all of the units have problems. Remember that at this point there are nearly 400 X3-45 buses in the fleet (almost double the amount of D4505 buses) with 190 of them being over 5 years old (only 43 D4505s are older than that.)

Here's the thing... I don't have a horse in this race. I happen to think that the X3-45 and the D4505 are fine buses with their own benefits and drawbacks.

Greyhound is a weird topic to discuss in the transportation world... unlike public agencies they aren't subject to public disclosure laws. That means everything is just a guess. Your guess is as good as any.

But clearly the company doesn't think they desperately need buses at this point... or they would be buying them.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Regarding D4505s, Greyhound US (GLI) never ordered D4505s before 2010. I highly doubt GLI has 43 D4505s older than that. Greyhound's fleet list on Texas DMV lists their oldest D4505 as 1M86DMHAXAP059487, a 2010 unit with a Detroit 60 14L EGR engine, Greyhound #86300. I don't see evidence of any GLI D4505 older than that, excluding White D4505 #30600 which was merged from TNM&O and some Americanos that are still registered separately.

But at this point, it's kind of unfair to use 5 years as a marker, because Greyhound has bunch of 4-year-old D4505s (2010) and a few 6-year-old X3-45s (2008). What I can say is that most of the X3-45 issues have been reported with 2008 and 2009 X3-45s. I don't know of many X3-45s other than Greyhound X3-45s, whereas there's many D4505s operated by other companies.

I recently found out, to my surprise, that the first batch of US-spec D4505s are powered with Detroit 60 14L engines rated at 425hp. Very low for such a large engine, though they must have plenty of reserve torque. It seems Greyhound liked the performance of the 86300s, but was not happy the Detroit 60 died and got replaced with the ISX12 only. By 2013, it appears MCI had convinced Greyhound to try the ISX12, except it seems to have been a big failure and a downgrade from the Detroit 60 14L.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Hey, look what I found: https://www.flickr.com/photos/103688802@N02/14933142083/sizes/h/.

That's a nice card timetable with #1130, one of the extra fancy DL3s. It has the enclosed parcel racks and a higher power rating, 425hp, among other perks.

And hey, check out my home route's timetable from 1990: https://www.flickr.com/photos/103688802@N02/15366429249/sizes/l.

Oh man, what is this? https://www.flickr.com/photos/103688802@N02/15367439450/sizes/l.

They're all in this big pile of old timetables: https://www.flickr.com/photos/103688802@N02/sets/72157647622207805.

 

[rickycourtney]

Up until the site was updated earlier this year Greyhound said it had 43 D4505s in the fleet purchased in 2006.

Here's proof: https://web.archive.org/web/20140209100607/http://www.greyhound.com/en/about/factsandfigures.aspx

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

OK, their website said that. But they don't have 43 2006 D4505s. No evidence of them other than the old fleet page. Not on the roster. Not registered. Never seen anywhere. Nobody's heard about them from anyone. They must have been joking. They keep messing up with the fleet page anyway, it should be regarded as a completely bogus source of info until they start putting real fleet figures on there.

Look, Greyhound can try to trick us, but they can't trick us. They say they have 280. They actually have 340 in the US fleet minus the wrecked unit(s). Surely they didn't wreck 60 X3-45s already. BoltBus units aren't included, either.

Yeah, Greyhound Canada had some, and they sometimes ran into the US, but GLC has their own fleet page, and GLC isn't running them into the US anymore. For that matter, Greyhound Canada just got the oldest Greyhound US X3-45s built in 2008. Those were the pilot batch with Detroit 60 14L EGR and Amaya Patriot PT seating. Not refurbished, only repainted. Those are very small in number and are being used to replace the 102D3s which are only 40' long and are causing overbooking. These are not included in my above 340-unit figure.

188 D4505s is possibly the only correct figure on the current Greyhound fleet page. Roster shows #86300-86407, and #86500-86567. Spottings of state-owned units up to #86573, and a few D4500CTs further.

Anyone know Viad Corporation? That used to be Greyhound Corportation, according to Greyhound's website.

 

[rickycourtney]

Look, Greyhound can try to trick us, but they can't trick us.

I'm not what incentive they would have to "trick" us, but okay... sure... whatever you say.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Look, Greyhound can try to trick us, but they can't trick us.

I'm not what incentive they would have to "trick" us, but okay... sure... whatever you say.

Perhaps they're not trying to trick us, but either way, their website is completely stupid and has a blatantly wrong route map, so there's no reason for us to trust their fleet page either.

Oh yeah, see this: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/61821-social-media-arrogance/.

That's another YouTube troll pretending to be a Greyhound driver and yet claiming that the G4500 has a ZF transmission, which is a poor transmission AFAIK, but the G4500 doesn't have a ZF transmission and that's definitely not the reason Greyhound is retiring that model. That guy "superdobette" is a classic example of someone that talks without backing it up.

Here's an interesting article on Greyhound: http://www.startribune.com/local/279675292.html.

Congrats, Martis Jerk! He wasn't originally named Carl Eric Wickman after all. Go Greyhound!

 

[mightyjoe1201]

Wow. Interesting article. I never knew they started in MN. Thankfully he changed his name and stunk as a car salesman or we wouldn't be discussing greyhound. Wonder what he would say about greyhound now if he were here.

 

[rickycourtney]

FYI... Greyhound Canada rosters 43 D4505 buses, all built in 2006, none with wheelchair lifts. That's according to the mostly accurate (but unfortunately poorly cited) CPTDB Wiki.

They may have been ordered by GLI and transfered to GLC ahead of the ADA deadline. Sadly for GLC, at 8 years old, these are the newest buses in their fleet.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I typed up a post, and the window closed on me. Argh!

OK, so basically GLI's fleet page must have meant those GLC D4505s. But GLI's fleet page had no mention of them in 2007, 2008, or 2009. GLC's fleet page has never mentioned them at any time. Photos show some of the GLC D4505s have wheelchair lifts, while others don't. I also found multiple photos of them in 2006, in GLC service. Interior shots show Torino VIP seats, open parcel racks, no video system or monitors, and "dog pattern" cloth velour seats. Indications are that they were bought new by GLC and never ran for GLI, but doesn't explain why GLC's fleet page doesn't mention them. They did run in the US occasionally, on international service. I believe someone simply copied the "43" figure from GLI's old fleet page and posted them on GLC, since it is poorly cited. CPTDB rosters have slews of errors anyway.

In terms of durability, they seem to be quite durable except for the bumpers. Many have lost parts of paint or have partially faded decals, but no physical damage other than the bumpers and maybe the bottom. The roof looks to be durable.

Here are some more photos of them: http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/greyhound-canada_d4505.html.

Also, these are apparently no longer the newest GLC buses. Tony on Flickr said he saw three X3-45s with Canadian registration. They are the 2008 pilot units with the Patriot PT seats. That means the Greyhound cover photo on Wikipedia is also outdated because it shows #8879, which is one of the units reportedly transferred to Canada. He sent me a photo of one with a trailer hitch, which I had posted earlier on tis thread, an indication of operating for GLC, not GLI.

 

[rickycourtney]

Canada: Where Greyhound's dinosaurs still roam the earth.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

They're not that old though. The MC-9s are gone, the 96A3s, 102A3s, and 102C3s are gone. MC-12s transferred from GLI are gone. The 102D3s are getting sold right now with 1,200,000-1,800,000 miles on them. The oldest in GLC's fleet are probably 102DL3s, same model as the oldest in GLI's fleet.

AFAIK, they do still have this 1995 102DL3: http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/greyhound/d/gry_984.jpg.

Greyhound Canada's financial trouble has stubbed their chances of getting anything new anytime soon. They appear to have put too much resources into unprofitable Toronto-area commuter routes that have to compete with cheaper GO Transit, a public agency. Greyhound Canada should bug out of their QuickLink commuter routes and focus on Express and Limited service instead. For example, a Vancouver-Calgary Limited. Faster service all along the TCH would help a lot more than constantly fighting GO Transit.

I wonder where DL3 #6703 came from: https://www.flickr.com/photos/76736942@N06/15432008565/sizes/c/. Not ordered by GLI or GLC. Must be second-hand to GLI then transferred to GLC, so I guess third-hand? LOL. Very high driver's seat.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

Where do all of you get your info about gli and plc rostered fleet? Been doing searches but can't seem to find anything help full. Most is either outdated or sites I don't recognize.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

GLI is very simple, always there: https://apps.txdmv.gov/apps/mccs/truckstop/.

You just got to put in USDOT #44110.

GLI is Greyhound Lines, Inc. aka Greyhound US. GLC is Greyhound Lines of Canada aka Greyhound Canada.

GLC is quite a bit tougher than GLI. You have to go by order batches and everything not in an order batch only becomes a guess. The GLC unit numbers are spread all over the place. What I can confirm is #978-990, #996-1009, #1013-1077, #1096-1100, and #1115-1182 which are DL3s (some are second-hand), #1183-1247 which are White G4500s, #1263-1292, #1296-1302 (second-hand), and #1327-1333 (second-hand) which are D4505s.

Some of the older retired DL3s have been sold to private operators. CAT-powered #999 was seen in Winnipeg in private use. It had operated the long-haul to Whitehorse and was equipped with a 7-speed manual. Here's Mighty 999 at Calgary in 2010: http://www.barraclou.com/bus/greyhound/greyhound999.jpg.

This was the best resource for GLC until they started getting transfers from the US: http://www.busdrawings.com/greyhoundca/index.htm.

On BusDrawings, every GLC original fleet number matches with the next, but then the transfers mess it up. It is very poorly cited but is backed up by spottings and was apparently copied from Greyhound Canada rosters.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

Thank you. Now I just have to figure out what model is which with the mci's since it only shows the vin. I thought greyhound didn't have any vanhools or are they from a separate division?

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Some MCI VIN Prefixes:

1M8P=102DL3

1M86=D4505

3BMX=G4500

1M8R=MC-12

1M8F=102A3

1M8G=102C3

1M8S=102D3

1M85=D4005

You can see the G4500 prefix sticks out like a sore thumb. That's because they're made in Mexico.

Greyhound didn't order any Van Hools, but they have Van Hools for all kinds of reasons, which can include: state-owned, leased, merged, demo, and second-hand Van Hools.

Here's a Greyhound plain-white Van Hool in poor condition: https://www.flickr.com/photos/buses-international/14463900361. The hatches don't even close tight anymore!

Here's some more Van Hools running for Greyhound Charter Services (ADA-incompliant):

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/12555748155/sizes/l

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/13205438383/sizes/l.

As you can see, they only have the "legroom" icon, no Wi-Fi or outlets.