Greyhound seats and fleet questions

[Swadian Hardcore]

I'm been on 777s with the Signature Interior. Don't know about the 737, probably have. I imagine one problem with bringing the parcel racks down more would be the TVs on some buses. Another could be meeting the edge of the racks with the windows. The G4500 bins do go down a lot and even curve down to obstruct the top of the windows, as you can see here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/95851032@N07/14846441945/sizes/l.

I think the G4500 bins could not come down more or else they would make passengers claustrophobic. I'm a short guy and I've hit my head on those bins before. I think the G4500 is as big as they get. With the long wheelbase and high luggage capacity, it probably would have been a great bus if it wasn't messed up by a combination Greyhound, MCI, and Dina.

How are those FAINSAs compared to the old Amayas or Nationals?

 

[rickycourtney]

Those bins on the G seem a good height, but rather narrow. They should extend closer to the window and possibly the aisle. I mean that is if luggage space is more important than getting the biggest possible windows (which to Greyhound or BoltBus passengers, luggage space is more important.)

The TV's would be problematic, but that problem can be solved by making sure they're placed between seats. Or just remove TV's if the operator opts for the bigger bins.

Everyone hits their head when they stand up on a 737, the important part is the aisle height.

They are a little more comfortable than I remember the national's being. I still think the A-2TEN is the most comfortable seat on the market.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I think the bins on the G4500 don't go more inboard to the aisle because the designers didn't want the bins to block out the roof escape hatches. I think they didn't want to go more outboard to the windows, either, because they didn't want the black speakers to push up right against the windows which would make them harder to maintain, though of course, the speakers could have gone to the bottom of the racks like on the D's.

But if they went more outboard, the tops of the windows would be useless and they would have to shrink the windows. I believe bigger windows are cheaper than more fiberglass (the whole G is fiberglass) so that may be why they left the windows bigger, even though bigger windows might not be so important to Greyhound. That being said, the G was also marketed for charters and tours which might require the bigger windows. I personally prefer them that big for those scenic Greyhound routes, they really offer a great view out: https://www.flickr.com/photos/95851032@N07/15580418562/sizes/l.

If the G4500 hadn't gone badly, it probably would have been a huge hit. Long wheelbase, decent turning circle, lots of passenger and luggage capacity, lightweight, low fuel consumption, huge full-width fuel tank (228 gallons) that can be refueled from either side (most buses can only be refueled from the right), etc. Due to that long wheelbase, it has cargo holds as big as the H3-45 and much larger parcel racks. DL3's only got a 183-gal tank, D4505 has a 164-gal.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

New Greyhound ad on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3QyMlTZjZI.

Looks like they're going heavy on the D4505 ad campaigns, especially in theaters. Perhaps Greyhound wants to make the D4505 its flagship. Too bad it has horrid seats and drivers even prefer the Blue G4500.

Check out this picture on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152363085371106&set=o.117755058267776&type=3&theater.

That appears to be a photo turned into a drawing then with extras hand-added like rivets on the window rims (which are not on the actual DL3). DL3 #6106 is a 1999 transferred to Canada. Or it could be hand-drawn but I doubt it. To hand-draw a DL3 to that detail, you'll need to be a serious DL3 fan.

That reminds me, I have some fan badges and I don't think I'm shared them before.

DL3-G4500 badges (2).pdf

 

[rickycourtney]

It's interesting, the last few years the X3-45 has been the face of Greyhound in advertising over the last few years, but it's shifted to the D4505 in the last few months as they start to shoot TV ads again.

But I think that has less to do with corporate deciding what bus will be the "flagship" of Greyhound and more to do with the fact that these ads are shot in Hollywood and it's a lot easier to get a shiny new D4505 in Los Angeles than a shiny new X3-45.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Here's some rumors on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheMightyGreyhound/posts/909957025684259?comment_id=911916488821646&offset=0&total_comments=12.

Rumors are that they're going away from Painful Premiers but may also be going away from MCI and Prevost. I would LOL at seeing a TD925 in Greyhound's livery. But yeah, Mike thinks the Van Hools are German, they're actually Belgian. Never heard of Cair. Would they buy them? Probably not, Greyhound already tested the C2045 many times and it was rejected every single time.

Looks like the drivers want the new J's. I think the plain white one at the show in Washington DC might have been a demo for Greyhound and then it got rejected or something. Or maybe it wasn't a demo at all and MCI just decided to send it there to join the party and maybe invited some officials and drivers to check it out in an attempt to get Greyhound to buy it (and to get positive publicity for MCI themselves).

Obviously, BoltBus was created to smack Megabus, but I believe Bolt's introduction in the PNW was pretty much to circumnavigate Greyhound's G4500 Disaster up there until they could be rebuilt. 'Cause not long ago, every Greyhound out of Seattle was a G4500 and not long ago, every G4500 was white and many were exemplary Dirty Dogs.

 

[rickycourtney]

That Facebook link is dead.

I would imagine that Greyhound would test all bus types, regardless of manufacturer. But as we both know, unless there has been major quality improvements from Van Hool, I doubt Greyhound would purchase them in large numbers.

Also while I'm sure Greyhound takes what drivers "like" under consideration... it's far from the most important thing for the company to consider when purchasing coaches.

Greyhound seems to be dormant at this point. Clearly they are comfortable with the amount of coaches they have and they might be waiting for something better to come on the market.

Megabus launched in Chicago in March 2006, BoltBus launched in New York in March 2008 and Megabus expanded to New York in May 2008. That means the first time the two companies were in direct competition was May 2008. BoltBus was really at first competing with the Chinatown bus carriers (who siphoned off a lot of Greyhound's business).

I believe Bolt's introduction in the PNW was all about competing in a market where ground travel is very competitive to air travel and where no low cost carriers were operating. BoltBus has been such a HUGE success here in the PNW, no other company (including Megabus) has tried to break into the market.

 

[rickycourtney]

But I do think there is an untapped market here in the PNW for a service like Vonlane.

Business class on Amtrak's Cascades is frequently sold out and Alaska's air shuttle is geared towards business travelers, so there is clearly an market for people looking for an upscale experience.

A bus can do the trip 15-30 minutes faster than the train (at least for the moment) and the only perk Amtrak gives is a bigger seat and a $3 coupon for the cafe.

Alaska's air shuttle used to have free Starbucks and newspapers in the terminal (it felt a little like a first class lounge) and a free alcoholic drink in air. Everything but the free drink has been eliminated. So a luxury bus can offer a much better experience at a lower cost.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

There's probably room for it in the PNW. I don't really know about luxury buses and I think luxury seating might have trouble meeting new DOT safety regs, which may explain Vonlane's fast expansion.

I think Greyhound ought to introduce "real" Express and Limited service to the whole I-5 corridor. Right now most of the through services are already Limiteds even though they still make local stops. I still think Greyhound's biggest problem right now is the Painful Premier. BoltBus has only new equipment, which sounds great, but with horrible seating, they're limited their own potential. I don't know if it's connections, kickbacks, good salesmanship, or what, but American Seating shouldn't be doing nearly as well as it is doing right now, with its terrible products.

Commuter coaches mostly have American Seating, too.

Greyhound needs to deal with the Painful Premiers and deal with them NOW. Otherwise, nobody will want to ride the new buses. What I can do? Chant "No More D4505! No More D4505! No More D4505!"? At this point, I see a D4505 and I repulse it because of its terrible Painful Premier seating.

 

[rickycourtney]

Someone will develop a luxury seat that complies with the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards, I have no doubt about that. That's also not the reason for Vonlane's expansion. The expansion is being done with existing buses.

I have no idea why Greyhound stuck with such an awful seat for so long... but they continued to special order them right into the last order earlier this year. Despite the seats, BoltBus has been a huge success here in the PNW and they get accolades for having "leather seats."

Define what you mean by "express", "limited", and "local" service. As far as I'm concerned, Greyhound only find local service here in the PNW and only BoltBus has express service.

American seating has the made in America advantage for Commuter seating and like it or not it's here to stay likely for the lives of those coaches. I highly doubt Greyhound will pay to replace the seats (the G4500's are still using their original seats) except for the BoltBus units and it's much more likely that BoltBus will just get new buses and hand the old ones down to Greyhound.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

BoltBus hasn't handed anything down to Greyhound and I don't think they will because Greyhound has been getting all the new Volvo-powered X3-45s. BoltBus only has old Detroit-powered X3-45s which have the Detroit Diesel Series 60 14L 425hp EGR, the same as the older D4505s.

Greyhound drivers say they think Greyhound will continue to order from MCI unless Prevost or someone else can make a vastly superior product, which the X3-45 isn't.

I finally found a good interior pic of the Blue G4500, but it's #7027 with Patriot PT seats : https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=689228551090442&set=pb.100000099118467.-2207520000.1418271256.&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Fscontent-a-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-xpa1%2Fv%2Ft1.0-9%2F1383501_689228551090442_450444846_n.jpg%3Foh%3D619105ddcdfb44ad2cc8758b149c23c6%26oe%3D5542C847&size=270%2C360.

Here's Blue G4500 #7094 in San Diego headed up to Los Angeles: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=738177869528843&set=pb.100000099118467.-2207520000.1418269688.&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Fscontent-b-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-xpf1%2Fv%2Ft1.0-9%2F1604522_738177869528843_54596207_n.jpg%3Foh%3D90da9f5b8761bd1c2b0e9d6b6efbeeaa%26oe%3D54FFAE36&size=960%2C720.

Another Blue G4500, #7072, in Los Angeles: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=829156297097666&set=pb.100000099118467.-2207520000.1418269459.&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xpf1%2Fv%2Ft35.0-12%2F10512092_822353144444648_2033847801_o.jpg%3Foh%3Daa70322474c9a53cbd9d6395b510a10a%26oe%3D548AE661%26__gda__%3D1418397233_9352b7d48935090e8a1437046e7642cf&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xpf1%2Fv%2Ft34.0-12%2F10510117_822353144444648_2033847801_n.jpg%3Foh%3D0e02dff7b0e270744bb16020a7cec5d1%26oe%3D548AE44C%26__gda__%3D1418410460_c61c34a0f96ca09b8c97e1d914228589&size=1632%2C1224.

I guess that means the Blue G is used for intra-California service now? It's still D4505 Land but I'm hoping I can get a Blue G for the long ride on 101 (Sked 6725) and the overnight return on I-5 (Sked 1446).

 

[rickycourtney]

That's not exactly true, the BoltBus units assigned to the California/Nevada routes are 2013 D4505's with Cummins ISX12 engines.

BoltBus hasn't handed down any units yet, because they don't have any really old units yet. The oldest X3-45's assigned to BoltBus are from 2008, the same age as the X3-45's that were just sent to GLC. They might be getting ready to swap those out, but I have no inside knowledge of that.

On the flip side to your statement, I think Greyhound will also continue to order from Prevost unless MCI or someone else can make a vastly superior product, which the D4505 isn't. They're buying from both to speed delivery times (two production lines) and get lower prices (by pitting Prevost and MCI against each other).

None of those Facebook links work (you need to copy the image URL, not the page URL), but if the blue G4500's are running in California they've been retrofitted with DPF's.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Yeah, them Blue G's must have been retrofitted with DPFs. I know the D4505 is a poor vehicle, but the X3-45 is not really a great vehicle either, so Greyhound will have to order both until one of them starts shining over the other.

I'm extremely inexperienced with Facebook and I don't know how to use it. Here's #7072 again, is it working now? https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=829156297097666&set=pb.100000099118467.-2207520000.1418281033.&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xpf1%2Fv%2Ft35.0-12%2F10512092_822353144444648_2033847801_o.jpg%3Foh%3Daa70322474c9a53cbd9d6395b510a10a%26oe%3D548AE661%26__gda__%3D1418397233_9352b7d48935090e8a1437046e7642cf&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xpf1%2Fv%2Ft34.0-12%2F10510117_822353144444648_2033847801_n.jpg%3Foh%3D0e02dff7b0e270744bb16020a7cec5d1%26oe%3D548AE44C%26__gda__%3D1418453660_954fc0b764f3ea8b9179474303e72604&size=1632%2C1224.

I previewed it and it's working.

Blue G's seem to be dominating the Los Angeles-Portland/Seattle/Vancouver routes and also seem to doing the Los Angeles-New York City and Los Angeles-Dallas routes. I'm hoping they're put more Blue G's in Los Angeles because I won't be dealing with Painful Premier after Painful Premier if I can ride FAINSAs to break it up. Drivers like them too. If they're not going to return DL3s to the West, then at least have some Blue G's, as they are vastly more comfortable than the D4505.

Edit: Oh yeah, how about this blue Van Hool? https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=708592382528584&set=pb.100001334877573.-2207520000.1418281673.&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xaf1%2Fv%2Ft1.0-9%2F10494650_708592382528584_4750159462972769022_n.jpg%3Foh%3Db6a92af1e3808affd9009cff13892f37%26oe%3D5506327D%26__gda__%3D1426089932_3ff2ad9aafe79f7d48b6132d39e64881&size=589%2C480.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Just an FYI, the Van Hool CX45 are available, along with the TX40/45. The C2045 and T2140/2145 may have been discontinued, but I'm not sure. If Greyhound ever does go for Van Hool, the CX45 (and the TX45) comes with the DD13 as a standard option versus an optional engine. The ISX is optional on those buses though.

 

[rickycourtney]

So on Facebook open a picture up to it's full size (it should open it it's own window), right click on it and select "copy image URL" or "copy image address". That will get a link directly to the image and not the page that contains the image (which may or may not be publicly accessible).

That second image is a Valley Transit bus, that to my knowledge, has used Van Hool for years. CJ is right, Van Hool uses the DD13 as the standard engine on the CX & TX, with the Cummins ISX available as an option.

Let's be totally honest here... as railiner has said before, Greyhound is not even a shadow of the company they used to be.

Transit operators are really the most important single customers for the motorcoach builders. In the last few years Houston has purchased 240 motorcoaches from MCI and MTA New York has purchased 390 motorcoaches from Prevost. Greyhound's 2013 "historic order" was for 220 motorcoaches (90 X3-45 & 130 D4505, of which 30 were cancelled). In fact, New Jersey Transit is looking to buy over 1,300 buses in a single contract. That's more than Greyhound's entire fleet!

In the long-run I think that MCI will probably merge the D4505 and the D4500CT into a single bus (the X3-45 and X3-45 Commuter Coach are mostly the same). Really, Greyhound can use the same bus as the transit operators, albeit with a lavatory added. They want the same thing in their buses: rugged reliability.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

A little mistake, Greyhound has a little more than 1,300 if you count all the units in storage. But yeah, transit operators are the big customers for MCI and Prevost right now. However, they don't need the same durability as Greyhound. You don't see 16-year-old transit buses very often, nor do them see them running Berthoud, Kicking Horse, or Deadman Pass. Nor do you see active transit buses with 1,500,000 mileage. In fact, more focus on transit operations could allow MCI and Prevost to cut corners, as was likely done with the D4500/D4000 when MCI reduced rivets.

This is a bad thing for the intercity buses industry and the private sector, especially RFPs that are competitive based on the lowest bidder. I prefer Greyhound's "shopping around" over RFPs where requirements are put on paper and the order is given to the lowest bidder. If Van Hools were Buy America-complaint, they would be popular for commuter runs, being so cheap and having good capabilities on paper, enough to meet the FTA's 500,000-mile requirement.

Yeah, I'm a private sector guy.

I'm giving up on copying images. Too hard.

 

[rickycourtney]

The point is Greyhound would never purchase 1,300 buses in a single contract.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Don't say never. Maybe 50 years from now, they'll be ordering 2,000 units in a single contract. Right after World War II, Greyhound ordered over 3,000 Silversides in a single contract.

Anyway, MCI added Bendix adaptive cruise control to the J4500 and presumably the D4505 as well for the 2015 model year. This is going to even the playing field a bit more between MCI and Prevost, though the Crappy Cummins still remains a potential issue. From National Bus Trader: http://www.busmag.com/mci-reliability-rally-showcase-upcoming-technologies-mci-j4500-d-series-coaches-setra-s-417-second-door-parts-training/.

When riding Greyhound's newest 86500-series D4505s, powered by the Cummins and with the fire suppressor to put out the increasingly-common engine fires, it's possible to hear a loud beeping every time the bus goes around a tight curve. Is this the radar? Did Greyhound manage to get radar on the D4505s to lower insurance costs?

 

[jebr]

I believe Bolt's introduction in the PNW was all about competing in a market where ground travel is very competitive to air travel and where no low cost carriers were operating. BoltBus has been such a HUGE success here in the PNW, no other company (including Megabus) has tried to break into the market.

I think it's part being a success, but also partially that no other operator has a base there, and it's hard to justify a base for the buses for just one market. Megabus really likes having hubs, and I can't think of any of their routes that don't have at least one end at a major hub of theirs. I don't know if there's any other major intercity bus companies there.

BoltBus can use Greyhound facilities for servicing the bus, so there's not a ton of starting capital to bring in BoltBus (just the cost of the buses.) Heck, they can even not worry quite as much about spare buses, as in a pinch BoltBus could pull a Greyhound out and use it. That's a huge advantage to BoltBus, and the market may not be big enough for another competitor.

 

[railiner]

Back in the latter part of the last century, Continental Trailways (and Pacific Trailways) offered some competition to the much larger Greyhound Lines,....

I believe the population of the Seattle, Portland, and Vancouver, BC metro areas is much larger than it was then, so there should be sufficient market for more competition, don't you think?

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Look, if Greyhound doesn't do something about those horribly uncomfortable D4505's, I'm not going to be happy. They need better seats in the D4505s or they should at least send Blue G4500s out west. I'm sick and tired of riding Painful Premier after Painful Premier.

I've deduced that most of the 102DL3s you see on Google Street View in Los Angeles Maintenance Center are Americanos DL3s or charter-only wheelchair-inaccessible Elevate Everything (white) DL3s. Very few actual Greyhound DL3s run in the West anymore. Seattle's obviously got Blue G4500s instead, being the G4500 axis.

Also, the X3-45s are almost always Americanos as well. A few come and go from Dallas or maybe New York City, but most are Americanos. They're being painted into Greyhound's livery right now.

So, in the West, as far as actual Greyhound schedules go, it's either Blue D4505 or Blue G4500. Even the White D4505s, which have more comfortable seats, are Americanos.

Americanos was always worse than Greyhound, but now they have more comfortable buses. What the heck? I better start seeing and riding more Blue G4500s here.

 

[rickycourtney]

I think it's part being a success, but also partially that no other operator has a base there, and it's hard to justify a base for the buses for just one market. Megabus really likes having hubs, and I can't think of any of their routes that don't have at least one end at a major hub of theirs. I don't know if there's any other major intercity bus companies there.

BoltBus can use Greyhound facilities for servicing the bus, so there's not a ton of starting capital to bring in BoltBus (just the cost of the buses.) Heck, they can even not worry quite as much about spare buses, as in a pinch BoltBus could pull a Greyhound out and use it. That's a huge advantage to BoltBus, and the market may not be big enough for another competitor.

Megabus operates in a similar fashion with their California/Nevada routes. They run several routes (SF-Sacramento-Reno, SF-Oakland/San Jose-Burbank-LA-Anaheim & LA-Riverside-Vegas) with no hub. So you can't book a trip from Sacramento to Los Angeles or from San Francisco to Las Vegas. They actually re-started the service in California after seeing the success of BoltBus in the PNW.
But I get the point you're making. There was a very low cost of entry for BoltBus and lower overhead compared to other companies. I do think there's room in the corridor for another operator.

 

[rickycourtney]

Don't say never. Maybe 50 years from now, they'll be ordering 2,000 units in a single contract. Right after World War II, Greyhound ordered over 3,000 Silversides in a single contract.

Fine, I highly doubt that Greyhound will ever place an order that large, even 50 years from now. Low cost air fares and a lingering reputation will make it nearly impossible for the new Greyhound to ever become the company it once was.

Anyway, MCI added Bendix adaptive cruise control to the J4500 and presumably the D4505 as well for the 2015 model year. This is going to even the playing field a bit more between MCI and Prevost, though the Crappy Cummins still remains a potential issue. From National Bus Trader: http://www.busmag.com/mci-reliability-rally-showcase-upcoming-technologies-mci-j4500-d-series-coaches-setra-s-417-second-door-parts-training/.

When riding Greyhound's newest 86500-series D4505s, powered by the Cummins and with the fire suppressor to put out the increasingly-common engine fires, it's possible to hear a loud beeping every time the bus goes around a tight curve. Is this the radar? Did Greyhound manage to get radar on the D4505s to lower insurance costs?

Go back and re-read that article. It says that as of March 2014 MCI was testing the Bendix adaptive cruise control system. It doesn't say that it was added for the 2015 model year. But clearly this is a move to play catch up with Prevost.

Look, if Greyhound doesn't do something about those horribly uncomfortable D4505's, I'm not going to be happy. They need better seats in the D4505s or they should at least send Blue G4500s out west. I'm sick and tired of riding Painful Premier after Painful Premier.

Okay so you won't be happy... do you think Greyhound cares?

Do you really think after investing MILLIONS of dollars in the Premier they are going to take them all out and send them to a landfill? Then what? Spend MILLIONS of dollars buying seats from another manufacturer?

Sorry to be blunt... but get over it. The Premiers are here to stay.

The best you can hope for at this point is that Greyhound chooses a new seat for future purchases and that when these coaches get refurbished in 10 yeas they get replaced instead of getting new covers slapped on them.

Also I'll give Greyhound the benefit of the doubt and say there's a reason why certain buses run in certain areas. There's probably a reason why the X3-45's stay back east, there's probably a reason why Seattle has a lot of G4500's and there's probably a reason why you'll be stuck seeing D4505's for many years to come. That won't change simply because you want to see something other than the D4505.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Yeah, but there were White G4500s in Reno for a long time and now that they're blue, they won't come back anymore? That really doesn't make sense to me. Yeah, I know they're not going to send the Premiers to a landfill, but that's what they did with the FAINSA Gaudis in the DL3s when they first replaced them with Amaya Patriot PTs. That's what they did with the late-model Detroit 50-powered MC-12s too, replaced the Narrowbody Gaudis with Patriot PTs.

If the Premiers are bad, and they are really bad, Greyhound will probably replace them when they can. Greyhound was replacing Gaudis in the DL3s with Patriot PTs as early as 2005 if not 2004.

Why does Seattle have lots of G4500s? Because they've always had lots of G4500s, that's where many G4500s were delivered. Same thing with the X3-45s, that's where they first entered service. But the D4505 entered service out of Chicago, and the G4500 entered service out of Dallas and Los Angeles. So why are the D4505s swamping Los Angeles all of a sudden while everything else can be seen in Chicago?

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Megabus is actually just a brand used by Coach USA. They're like a spinoff of Coach USA in a similar fashion that BoltBus is a spin-off of Greyhound. Coach USA already had bases in the West when they started Megabus, so they simply used those resources. I believe Megabus is All-West? I think Megabus in Texas is actually Kerrville and in the Northeast, Olympia Trails.

While Megabus most likely needed more resources than BoltBus to start their operations, they were most definitely not a completely-new start-up like the Chinatown bus companies were.

Greyhound's trying to improve their reputation, right? And Greyhound's passengers hate the Premier LS, right? I'm not the only Greyhound customer that is unhappy, even downright mad, at the Painful Premiers. So, I'm thinking they might just want to do something about those seats.....