Greyhound seats and fleet questions

[rickycourtney]

OTOH, what is preventing the X from being used in charters? Curb appeal? It doesn't look much different from the H to the "untrained eye" and probably looks better than the J. The opposite is: why can't the H3-45 be used for line-haul as well as the X3-45?

There's nothing preventing an X from being used for tours and charters and conversely there's nothing preventing an H from being used for scheduled intercity routes.
The X is better for intercity routes because it has an ultra long wheelbase and lower overall height making it ride better as it travels long distances on highways.

The H is better for tours because it has higher passenger deck and larger windows for better sightseeing and charters because it has those huge luggage bays.

That's why I was thinking that the H would be more for longer distance and lower frequencies through area with lower population. Over long distances, the bigger windows and higher deck of the H could make passengers more comfortable. The extra luggage capacity could haul more package express; after all, Greyhound's New York City-Los Angeles is reportedly a daily Blue G because of package express backlogs. And longer-distance passengers seem to carry more baggage anyways.

The X3-45 can probably take more wear and tear so it would be better for intense short-distance turn-and-burns and the handling would make it useful in highly-populated areas. The slightly better ride quality is probably for useful over short distances whereas the better sightlines of the H would be better over long distances.

You're approaching this from the perspective of a passenger, not from the perspective of Greyhound.
Sure bigger windows, a higher deck and better sightlines are great for passengers, but they don't matter to Greyhound. They aren't giving you a tour of the US, they are transporting you from point A to point B. The view along the way is an added bonus. The ultra long wheelbase and lower overall height of the X would make it better on a route of any length.

I think you're overthinking the luggage capacity issue. Greyhound allows passenger to check one piece of luggage that can't exceed 62 inches when adding the total exterior dimensions (L + W + H). That's a HUGE piece of luggage... roughly 4.25 cubic feet.

So lets say each of the 50 passengers onboard checks a piece of luggage of the maximum size (which would never happen) and you've used 212.5 cubic feet of the luggage compartment. If all of that was packed into an X3-45 (which has Greyhound's smallest luggage compartment at 376 cubic feet) Greyhound would still have AT LEAST 163.5 cubic feet available for packages. If the bus isn't sold out, if passengers have smaller luggage or someone doesn't bring any luggage, there will be even more space available for packages.

Honestly, Greyhound Package Express doesn't seem to be doing a lot of business here in the US. There are just too many competing carriers offering low-cost ground and air transportation to every corner of the country. It's a much different story up in Canada. Of course, routes where Greyhound is doing a lot Package Express, they will probably prefer to use those Blue G's which have a very large luggage hold.

I heard on GTE that the "fuel efficiency" MCI is advertising for the J4500 is unnoticeable and that anybody thinking otherwise would be thinking too good to be true, which is basically the nice way of saying MCI is spewing BS about J4500 fuel efficiency. I understand how the fuel efficiency depends on the carrier and maintenance, among other things, but I think what MCI is talking about is that if the same company were to run the J4500 alongside a competing model on the same services with the same standards of maintenance, MCI claims the J4500 would beat its competitors on fuel efficiency.

It seems like a weasel claim to me.Look at the Altoona tests... two buses of the same model with similar configurations can end up having different fuel efficiency results. A lot of fuel efficient comes down to the person sitting in the front-most seat.

MCI even admits that:

"When it comes to saving fuel, studies indicate that more than 30 percent of fuel economy is influenced by driving techniques."

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

You're offering that Greyhound Canada cares more about luggage capacity than in the US and would thus use Blue G4500s, but they don't have a single Blue G4500 and are scrapping all their White G4500s whenever replacements are available. Only Greyhound US runs the Blue G4500s and primarily on long-distance routes, reportedly because package express backlogs on long-distance routes but not on short-distance routes. This makes sense too, because the Blue G4500s are still rare in the fleet compared to the other models.

And yes, Package Express only accounts for 9% of Greyhound's revenue, according to their financial report, though that isn't actually too bad.

 

[rickycourtney]

You're offering that Greyhound Canada cares more about luggage capacity than in the US and would thus use Blue G4500s, but they don't have a single Blue G4500 and are scrapping all their White G4500s whenever replacements are available. Only Greyhound US runs the Blue G4500s and primarily on long-distance routes, reportedly because package express backlogs on long-distance routes but not on short-distance routes. This makes sense too, because the Blue G4500s are still rare in the fleet compared to the other models.

Greyhound Canada also operates a fleet of trailers to add Package Express capacity.If Greyhound Lines in the US really has such a big backlog of Package Express shipments maybe they should look at buying trailers or borrowing a few bus/trailer combinations from Greyhound Canada.

And yes, Package Express only accounts for 9% of Greyhound's revenue, according to their financial report, though that isn't actually too bad.

Is that in North America or just in the US?

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Greyhound operates primarily on the Interstates. That's where the X3-45 appears to be doing well. Those line-haul H3-45s up in Canada of various operators primarily operate on two-lane provincial highways or, at most, four-lane divided provincial highways. Their situation is the exact opposite of Greyhound routes in the Northeast, where X3-45s dominate.

Greyhound US doesn't have enough Package Express to buy trailers and the trailers would be a pain in the a$$ for the drivers.

The 9% should be for North America but I don't know if Greyhound Canada's contracted freight is also considered Package Express. Greyhound Canada also operates a fleet of trucks.

Also, how come Adirondack Trailways keeps buying H3-45s instead of X3-45s.

 

[rickycourtney]

Greyhound operates primarily on the Interstates. That's where the X3-45 appears to be doing well. Those line-haul H3-45s up in Canada of various operators primarily operate on two-lane provincial highways or, at most, four-lane divided provincial highways. Their situation is the exact opposite of Greyhound routes in the Northeast, where X3-45s dominate.

And that's why

Greyhound US doesn't have enough Package Express to buy trailers and the trailers would be a pain in the a$$ for the drivers.

The 9% should be for North America but I don't know if Greyhound Canada's contracted freight is also considered Package Express. Greyhound Canada also operates a fleet of trucks.

Since that contracted freight is considered Package Express... I would imagine the earnings from that would be rolled into the Package Express revenue.

If Greyhound published the Package Express revenue in Canada vs. US... I'm willing to bet that the numbers would be skewed heavily towards Canada. Greyhound Canada has very robust Package Express business... Greyhound Lines in the US does not. Again, in the US there are just too many competing carriers offering low-cost ground and air transportation to every corner of the country

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

GLC also seems to be gradually less interested in package express because they're in financial trouble (according to the same annual report) and are increasing Express and Limited services. These won't be able to pull trailers well, I assume. And GLC is cutting down on rural and remote services as well. Looks like Leach wants to make GLC just like GLI.

 

[rickycourtney]

GLC also seems to be gradually less interested in package express because they're in financial trouble (according to the same annual report) and are increasing Express and Limited services. These won't be able to pull trailers well, I assume. And GLC is cutting down on rural and remote services as well. Looks like Leach wants to make GLC just like GLI.

Not sure that's a bad thing.Greyhound Lines seems to be moving in a good direction (both in financial performance and in customer experience) compared to when FirstGroup first took over the company. On the other hand not much has changed with Greyhound Canada.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

The idea of "less change" is clearly not working, as GLC is lagging behind GLI. GLC can't even afford new equipment and is still running old silversides 102D3s. They're also still running White G4500s because they can't afford to replace them and don't care to rebuild them. And the D4505s don't appear to be performing too well either, since #1265 was photographed getting scrapped after an unknown mishap (it didn't seem terribly damaged).

The problem is, Canadian bus ops are still too regulated. If they get deregulated, most of the rural and remote routes will go bust. If they don't deregulate, chances are GLC is going to get strangled.

In terms of customer experience, GLC isn't that far behind GLI. They don't have Painful Premiers, which is a good thing. They have similar Wi-Fi and power outlets as GLI. They also have those "VIP" seats and enclosed parcel racks on some motorcoaches. And yield management and the updated booking system. But most GLC schedules are hopelessly bogged down and obsolete unless they get ripped apart and rewritten. Toronto-Calgary should not be a milk run. I bet GLC's finances are a disaster except for the POPULAR Vancouver-Calgary route.

Oh, remember how NJT got a D4500CT with A2-TEN seats? This one: https://www.flickr.com/photos/102351503@N04/16167797972/.

Well, its rear end is disgusting: https://www.flickr.com/photos/102351503@N04/16103855969/. It's a CNG-powered unit, but if this is MCI's idea of the new D4500CT, then I'm highly disappointed.

 

[railiner]

Also, how come Adirondack Trailways keeps buying H3-45s instead of X3-45s.

Mr. Berardi, the owner, likes the H-3's better. I don't know just why....it could be he thinks their larger size gives them more "curb appeal". It could be because we had a bad experience with certain facet's of our old XL-II's....

If I could choose, I'd pick the X-3.

On the other hand, I like the fact that our entire three-company fleet will be down to just two types in a couple of years....H-3's and CO2045's (or CX45's). And yes, I wonder why he doesn't opt for the TX45, if he likes the taller coaches....It would be even better if we had just one type.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Maybe it has to do with the CX45 being cheap and possibly being the cheapest 45-footer available. Perhaps Mr. Berardi wants the best motorcoach available and the cheapest motorcoach available, and for whatever reason, he thinks the H3-45 is the best available, though it is facing some serious competition from the new J4500 which is supposedly more driver-friendly too.

Or perhaps he wants the biggest/tallest motorcoach available and the cheapest motorcoach available. ^_^

What are some problems of the XL-IIs? Would the sliding lavatory door of the H3-45 cause potential problems?

I sure hope Mr. Berardi finds out about those painful Premier seating and orders something else next time. I'm a bit bummed that I didn't get to try out Burlington's new J4500s with the A2-TEN seating, but those run overnight and makes lots of stops. They should have the blue LED interior lighting or something that could prevent passengers from being rocked awake at every stop. Maybe I'll try them if I go to the Midwest again, but I really want to ride a H3-45 again just to see how they compare to the X as a passenger.

 

[rickycourtney]

What sort of annoys me is that both MCI and Prevost did big redesigns of their flagship coaches but didn't bother to give them a new name. Something like J4505 or H4-45. It's not like this was just a facelift, there are some pretty big differences between the old and new versions.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

H4-45? That would mean a 4-axle 45-foot motorcoach! H3-45, AFAIK, means High-Capacity 3-Axle 45-Foot. I'm not sure how Prevost did a major redesign of the H3-45. This was the previous version: https://www.flickr.com/photos/translinkfan/14752397259/sizes/l. This is the current version: https://www.flickr.com/photos/translinkfan/9583319013/sizes/c/.

All I see are bigger xenon headlights and new fender flares. Also, the bumper now has dual fog lights for a total of four rather than single for a total of two.

From interior shots I've seen, the interior is the same, as is the dashboard and driver's workplace.

I think MCI's J4500 is a bigger redesign. The dashboard and controls have been resigned and the mirrors have been reportedly improved. The interior lighting, headlights, parcel racks, passenger comfort modules, and suspension have all been improved and the exterior styling has taken major changes that, IMO, makes the J look a lot better.

Edit: Oh yes, the rear end of both have been recently redesigned.

 

[rickycourtney]

Okay you clearly get my point but you're splitting hairs.

When the XL was upgraded it became the XL-II.

When the XL-II was upgraded it became the X3.

When the D4500 was upgraded it became the D4505.

When the D4500 got a facelift it became the D4500CT.

When the J4500 was upgraded it should have been renamed.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Well, why do you think they didn't do it?

My theory: I think they only change the name when they change the dimensions or structure. For example, XL-45 to XL-II got flush-mounted windows and smooth sides. XL-II to X3-45 got a longer wheelbase. D4500 to D4505 got a brand new nose and a new smooth roof. D4500 to D4500CT got a new smooth roof along with D4500CL. The old D roof was studded with countless rivets.

I wouldn't call the D4500 to D4505 as an "upgrade" considering the poor performance of the D4505 so far, though it did get disc brakes which are also now offered on the D4500CL/CT.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[railiner]

When you look at the total model name history of MCI....from the beginning....the "logic" behind the designations used for new and improved models, has changed many times over the years....sometimes a number, sometimes just a letter suffix, other times a whole new format....and now in the case of the redesigned 'J'...nothing.... :unsure:

Prevost also has changed their formats from time to time, sometimes using names, other times alph-numeric, and in the case of the 'H' series, nothing, as Swadian has pointed out....The H3-45 has stayed as the indication of all High, 3 axle, 45 foot modes since their inception, with no changes for updates. The H3-40 became the H3-41, but it actually grew a foot longer...and of course the H5-60 articulated, is long gone.....

Even General Motors, before it exited the business, made a radical change in their long used model designations when the RTS model was introduced....

 

[railiner]

I sure hope Mr. Berardi finds out about those painful Premier seating and orders something else next time..

Yes, he has....from both the driver's and the regular daily commuter's. You may be please to learn that our 2014 H3's came with a new type of Amaya seat. I do not know the model designation, and can't tell from the Amaya website, as ours look a bit different....they have full width headrests, are upholstered in the "leather-like" black vinyl, front and back, and have what I can best describe as a "loose pillow" like additon to the back and headrest....

I haven't ridden in them yet, but sitting in them feels a lot more comfortable than the Premier's. Unfortunately, I still can't slide my shins far under them.....

 

[rickycourtney]

Got a peek at a TEMSA TS 35 bus last night.
I was really impressed. It's a good looking coach and has all the creature comforts of a normal motorcoach (integral construction, restroom, individual air vents & LED reading lights) but it's quite a bit smaller at 35 feet long. TEMSA also makes a 30 foot TS 30.

Never heard of TEMSA before, but it strikes me that this would be a better coach for use on less-busy routes compared to the cutaways used by Greyhound Connect and other operators.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

I've seen the TEMSA myself. I got talking to a driver of one that was on a charter and he said he thinks they are built by SETRA. I for for about it till seeing your post. I'll look into it more when I get a chance later.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

Just did some research, looks like that driver was wrong. TEMSA is its own company based in Turkey.

 

[railiner]

Academy has had a small fleet of those Temsa's for a few years now. I believe they are used mainly on charter's calling for lower capacity, but "big coach" amenities....

Here's a link from their US distributor....they have a 45 footer, but I haven't seen one on the road, yet. It sure looks like a Van Hool clone....

http://chbussales.com/new-coaches/ts-45

 

[rickycourtney]

The 45 footer does look like a Van Hool clone, but I wonder how the quality compares.

The 30/35 footers look very European too. The design sort of reminds me of the Alexander Dennis Enviro200 (called the New Flyer MiDi here in the US).

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Hi Railiner, could the seats be these: http://www.suburbanseats.com/images/resized/312/312/sitecontent/products/486/images/TORINO%20G%20Luxury%20leather.jpg&square=true?

I wouldn't mind if Greyhound orders that type of seat. Though I have never sat in one before, I'm sure it's much better than the Painful Premiers. I found the X3-45 to be a torture machine after riding in it with Premier seats for 23 hours. At that point, the seat matters more than legroom.

I've never seen a TEMSA in the US, all I know is that they come with a Cummins ISL 8.9L 345hp transit engine, which I'm sure Joe is familiar with. In Mexico, a popular luxury coach is the Irizar PB, which comes in both integral and body-on-chassis form, but, despite being Irizar's most expensive offering, it has no default lavatory: http://www.irizar.com/en/products/buses-coaches/coaches/irizar-pb/.

It's sold in Mexico for low prices and competes with the Volvo 9700, which is "not very durable" according to a mechanic who said he rode on one with a dislodged windshield.

I wonder if 4-axle 53-foot motorcoaches could be introduced in the US and Canada with Detroit DD15 engines. Prevost could then make a H4-53 and MCI a J5300.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

Yeah, I'm familiar with that engine, tho I think ours have less horsepower. Wish they never would have stopped using Detroit

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

So, it's not a very good engine? Too bad transit operators don't really have a choice.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

I won't say it's a bad engine. It may b more personal preference. The ones we have do run good but I prefer a Detroit over a Cummins. The one that's in out 2012 low floors uses less fuel then the older buses with the ISL and the Detroits we have