Greyhound seats and fleet questions

[Swadian Hardcore]

Great idea, though I don't know if the doors on MCIs and Prevosts are wide enough for those wheelchair lifts to be used. Also, MCI and Prevost store the spare tire behind the front bumper, which means they will possibly block out the space that National Express puts the lift in.

I was looking through the Internet Archive for MCI and found that their late-model G4500 has a similar interior to Greyhound's blue G4500. After the G4500 failed miserably, MCI switched production to Winnipeg, where engineers found many design flaws. These engineers redesigned the G4500 based on the J4500 and released a prototype. Greyhound rejected the design and no one else wanted to take the risk of ordering it.

Now it appears that Greyhound has modified 175 of the the existing Sahagun-built G4500s to the standard of the prototype redesigned Winnipeg-built G4500 and they seem to be performing well. These are basically J4500s.

Here's the staircase (if the picture works): https://web.archive.org/web/20041227094325/http://www.mcicoach.com/morePhotos/passenger21.htm.

You can see it's not spiral and is different from the old G4500 staircase.

Edit: You know, I think MCI might have done the modifications for Greyhound. Perhaps Greyhound won a settlement in the lawsuit that stipulated that MCI modify all their G4500s to the J4500 standards at no cost to Greyhound. This would explain why Greyhound suddenly cancelled G4500 retirement and started painting them blue, and it would also explain why Greyhound released nothing about the G4500 refurb contract.

 

[Train2104]

To my understanding, NJT specs lavatories on their coaches that will be uses on very long routes.

From what I understand, the lavatories are only available for public use on the 319 (NYC-AC-Cape May Express) and one other route out of Atlantic City. Some of the longest routes they run (313/315/317) don't use them, since their primary market is local travel.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

Moving the wheelchair lift to the front door may be something m.c.I. and prevost engineers could consider for future bus models. It would make it easier for the driver. Only problem I see is that there is not enough room in the front to turn a chair to get it into the seating area.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

There should be enough room in the Prevosts, which don't have the depressed aisle in the front. It would be impossible to put into any D-unit because the door is only 24" wide, the staircase is even narrower, and the aisle is depressed at the front. The Prevosts have 30" wide doors IIRC. The J might be able to accommodate it with the wide spiral staircase, the E and G also have wide staircases. But all three have the depressed aisle at the front.

Wonder if the NJT 316 uses lavatories. Do much people use 319 for New York City-Atlantic City or do most people use Greyhound or Academy? 317 Philadelphia-Ashbury Park is a local, I know, but it take 3:50 to complete with a MCI D4000. I really don't think 317 will ever need a D4500.

 

[rickycourtney]

Moving the wheelchair lift to the front door may be something m.c.I. and prevost engineers could consider for future bus models. It would make it easier for the driver.

Prevost and MCI would almost certainly need to redesign the entire front end of their coaches to make a front door wheelchair lift work. The coach would need to have a longer front overhang, a plug door instead of sedan (overrated in my opinion), reposition the spare (or just remove it) and right angle steps instead of curved (nice, but not necessary). All can be done and I can't think of a reason not to do it.

Only problem I see is that there is not enough room in the front to turn a chair to get it into the seating area.

Yeah the space is tight, there's definitely no room to turn around. The videos I've seen show passengers using a wheelchair boarding "backwards" and wheeling back into the securement area. In my opinion, it's a little awkward, but worth the trade off considering only 1 seat is removed when a wheelchair is secured.
Also I would think that most operators would want space to secure 2 wheelchairs, not just 1.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

Boarding chairs backwards is actually the proper way. It depends on the operator for how many chairs they feel they could handle and also how often they get chairs. I could see losing maybe four seats for two chairs. Depending on how they configure the set up for the tie downs. I loose six seats on the transit buses I drive when I get two chairs cause if how the transit seating is designed.

I don't think a front door lift would require removing the spare tire. Maybe moving it some cause you can get a lift that stows under the front steps. You would loose some storage space for the electronics and hydraulics for it tho.

 

[rickycourtney]

I was looking through the Internet Archive for MCI and found that their late-model G4500 has a similar interior to Greyhound's blue G4500. After the G4500 failed miserably, MCI switched production to Winnipeg, where engineers found many design flaws. These engineers redesigned the G4500 based on the J4500 and released a prototype. Greyhound rejected the design and no one else wanted to take the risk of ordering it.

[citation needed]

Now it appears that Greyhound has modified 175 of the the existing Sahagun-built G4500s to the standard of the prototype redesigned Winnipeg-built G4500 and they seem to be performing well. These are basically J4500s.

Calling a refurbished G4500s "basically J4500s" is a very bold statement. Again, [citation needed].

Here's the staircase (if the picture works): https://web.archive.org/web/20041227094325/http://www.mcicoach.com/morePhotos/passenger21.htm.

You can see it's not spiral and is different from the old G4500 staircase.

I've never seen an old G4500 staircase so I have no point of reference, but it looks spiral to me... just not as much as a J4500.

Edit: You know, I think MCI might have done the modifications for Greyhound. Perhaps Greyhound won a settlement in the lawsuit that stipulated that MCI modify all their G4500s to the J4500 standards at no cost to Greyhound. This would explain why Greyhound suddenly cancelled G4500 retirement and started painting them blue, and it would also explain why Greyhound released nothing about the G4500 refurb contract.

A settlement of 12 years after the first G4500 rolled off the production line? I doubt it.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Americanos has some late-model 2004 G4500s that were completed in Winnipeg, their VINs start with 2M9XSMDA which means a Winnipeg, Canada-produced G4500 motorcoach with CAT engines. They also have some 2M9XSMPA which have Detroit engines. These VINs are listed on Texas DMV.

They are different from all the other G4500s which are 3BMXSMPA, 3BMASMRA, or 3BMXSMWA, which mean Sahagun, Mexico-produced G4500 motorcoach with various different engines.

The G4500 prototype released from Winnipeg and listed on the archived 2005 MCI website has a different staircase (less spiral), wheelbase (336" vs 331"), and lavatory (E/J lavatory module with rounded door) from the Sahagun G4500s. MCI obviously did produce some G4500s from Winnipeg and it was obviously different from the Sahagun G4500s, otherwise at least the wheelbase should have been the same. This fits right in with GTE sources that say MCI engineers discovered design flaws and fixed them by replacing the flawed components with J4500 components. The suspension was one of the big problems with the Sahagun G4500, causing fires and crashes, so MCI, to fix those problems, would have put on a new suspension that may have then increased the wheelbase a few inches.

MCI went on tour with the new G4500 prototype from Winnipeg and tried to sell it, but that obviously didn't work out since the new G4500 never entered true mass-production. The only way MCI could have tried to save the G4500 was to put J4500 components into it, there was no other components that would fit better and improve the model as quickly and cheaply as possible.

Greyhound went on lawsuit with MCI in 2003 and I don't think the lawsuit was resolved until 2009. That's why Greyhound ordered Prevosts in 2008 and 2009, then ordered MCIs in 2010. According to roster records, Greyhound also retired some G4500s in 2009, when some were sold, but halted the retirements for no apparent reason. This suggest that, in 2010, as part of the G4500 lawsuit settlement, MCI would have agreed to fix the G4500 problems in units that could still be saved. MCI probably did that after Greyhound threatened ordering Prevosts again in 2010.

Greyhound probably delayed sending the G4500s to MCI for the rebuild because they all had wheelchair lifts and new ADA regs were coming soon. At least 12 G4500s were reportedly rebuilt by 2012. Then large numbers were rebuilt in 2013 after they were relieved in line-haul service by the new D4505s that came that year.

To save the G4500s, the easiest thing for MCI to do was rebuild the G4500 with J4500 components. They have similar frameworks and MCI had already tested something like this with the Winnipeg G4500 prototype. So MCI would have essentially turned the white G4500s into blue J4500s in G4500 shells. The Blue G4500 rides just like an old J4500 and drivers have said that both turn poorly. Because the G4500 is made of fiberglass over a stainless steel frame, corrosion would be near-zero, so a 12-year-old G4500 shell is pretty much the same as a brand-new G4500 shell. The E/J4500 has the same fiberglass-over-stainless build.

It's an easy, cheap, long-term, and quick solution for the G4500 disaster.

 

[rickycourtney]

Okay... I don't doubt that MCI attempted to make improvements to the G4500 when it brought production of the coach to Winnipeg. But how do you know that MCI did the upgrades to the G4500 as a part of a lawsuit settlement (which are usually private)?

Also, has every blue G4500 you've been on had the J4500 style lavatory or the less curved staircase? I'm not sure why they would make those changes.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Okay... I don't doubt that MCI attempted to make improvements to the G4500 when it brought production of the coach to Winnipeg. But how do you know that MCI did the upgrades to the G4500 as a part of a lawsuit settlement (which are usually private)?

Also, has every blue G4500 you've been on had the J4500 style lavatory or the less curved staircase? I'm not sure why they would make those changes.

No, I don't know that MCI did the rebuilds, that was just a theory. I just know that MCI could have done the rebuilds since the blue ones looks a lot like the Winnipeg-built G4500.

I know why they would makes the lavatory changes; the old G4500 lavatory was always falling apart and smelling up the whole bus, giving it the infamous name "Dirty Dog". Not to mention the lavatory door had a horrible latch and would often swing open while the vehicle was in motion. This doesn't happen in the Blue G4500 anymore, and if it did, then Greyhound would have wasted all the money into the blue ones because nobody wants to ride a smelly puke-inducing motorcoach with a broken lavatory, no matter the Wi-Fi, legroom, or power outlets.

As for the less-curved staircase, perhaps the old more-curved ones were improperly assembled in Sahagun. After all, making spiral staircases isn't always easy AFAIK. Or perhaps the old step tread was simply too damaged and they wanted to replace the staircase without custom-ordering spiral staircases for the G4500, so they just slapped it together, resulting in less curvature. I remember the old steps were smoother whereas the new ones have more tread.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Greyhound Canada #1125, a 2000 MCI 102DL3 rebuilt unit, crashed today near Jasper while running Schedule 5046 Prince George-Edmonton. #1125 was apparently a standard (non-VIP) Edmonton-based DL3 with enclosed parcel racks but no wheelchair lift. It was pulling an old white pup trailer, which extends the length of the 45.42-footer to approximately 62.5 feet.

The causes of the crash are unknown. All I can say is that it is fortunate that nobody was killed and hopefully nobody was seriously injured.

Article: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/greyhound-bus-crash-near-jasper-sends-multiple-people-to-hospital-1.2890559.

 

[rickycourtney]

So what did you doing on your trip to Southern California? What did you think of LA Metro's buses, the Red Line and City of Santa Clarita Transit? What do you think of all the historic Greyhound buses? Did you buy a TAP card or did you just use cash on each bus?

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Will post a trip report after all.

 

[rickycourtney]

Looking at your pictures on Flickr and those old coaches are gorgeous. Can't wait to see more pictures.

But something amused me... that 102DL3 you rode on is lettered with "OPERATE BY: AMERICANOS USA LLC". Gotta love the poor grammar printed large for everyone to see. Also to that end... why print it so large and place it in such a prominent location?

Compare that to BoltBus which goes to great lengths to hide the "OPERATOR: GREYHOUND LINES INC." lettering.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

This time your link doesn't work. But yes, I know what you mean, I really don't know why Americanos did that though. Every single Americanos says "OPERATE BY: AMERICANOS USA LLC (etc, etc)".

Nobody seems to really care when it's a plain-white DL3, but in Sacramento, I saw an Americanos-livery G4500 boarding for San Francisco. Many passengers were confused and didn't know what to do. They tried to get on Greyhound #86352, the D4505 to Reno, then had to be redirected onto the correct bus by the driver. #86352 was correctly signed for Reno, but the passengers didn't seem to notice. The Americanos apparently had no destination sign.

 

[rickycourtney]

This time your link doesn't work. But yes, I know what you mean, I really don't know why Americanos did that though. Every single Americanos says "OPERATE BY: AMERICANOS USA LLC (etc, etc)".

Nobody seems to really care when it's a plain-white DL3, but in Sacramento, I saw an Americanos-livery G4500 boarding for San Francisco. Many passengers were confused and didn't know what to do. They tried to get on Greyhound #86352, the D4505 to Reno, then had to be redirected onto the correct bus by the driver. #86352 was correctly signed for Reno, but the passengers didn't seem to notice. The Americanos apparently had no destination sign.

Well that just goes to show you the power of strong branding (and Greyhound finally has a strong brand for the first time in decades with the neoclassical livery). Passengers didn't look at the destination sign, they looked at the brand. The passengers saw an Americanos bus and a Greyhound bus and approached the Greyhound bus since they bought a Greyhound ticket.

Of course that's the problem with using anything other than a Greyhound bus on a Greyhound route.

That's why it's probably not a bad idea for Greyhound to have a bunch of plain white buses. If they really wanted to overachieve they could make up sets of magnetic signs that say Greyhound, BoltBus, Americanos, etc., stick the appropriate one on the side/front and store the rest on board the bus.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Greyhound's brand has always been easily recognizable, but its reputation has been bad since the big strike of 1983. I know Greyhound has a problem with using a non-Greyhound on a Greyhound schedule, but passengers would be even more confused if it was a Jefferson unit on a Jefferson schedule and they bought their ticket from Greyhound.

That's why caused the "night wait incident" in Des Moines after Greyhound had already pulled out of the city and all surrounding areas.

I don't know what to say about the destination sign, whether is has become useless or what. It's a bit disheartening to see the passengers take no notice of the destination sign "RENO, NV", opposite direction of San Francisco.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

I can say confidently it's because people don't read. All they see is a bus, they don't bother to look at the sign. I get that myself. As a matter of fact, I have people that will ask if I'm going to New York, etc. They can't tell I'm driving a transit bus. Its universal on this country.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Wait, Joe, is this your bus? http://citizensvoice.com/polopoly_fs/1.1497992!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_490/image.jpg.

I really don't get why people don't read the sign and risk getting on the wrong bus when there's a bright orange LED sign at the front showing the opposite direction they're wanting to go. And apparently, a bigger destination sign wouldn't help either.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

I don't know if it's ny bus. The link isn't working.

Its because people are too much in a hurry to look up. A sign could be put rite in front of them telling them where their bus is going and they'd walk rite into it.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

It's a Gillig Low Floor #1201 on Route 80.

Transit riders are often in a hurry, but Greyhound boards early and they should have known better.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

Oh dear God. Depending on how old the pic is its probable me. I've been on route 90 driving a phantom for about two months now.

People are the same no matter what. I've watched them not knowing what greyhound was theirs until it was announced even with the signs showing its destination. Hell, most people can't tell you if they got on a greyhound or a trailways. Unfortunately we are the odd balls that pay attention to that stuff. Lol

 

[mightyjoe1201]

Were you able to see any advertising signs? It can help to let you know if it was me or not. Our signs changed last the same time I started covering for another route

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

It's May 31st, 2013, apparently at a transit center, and it says "80 LAUREL MALL".

So I found this J4500 controls vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMoCjNr2FBQ. What do you think of the controls? Some people seem to not like them.

First Canada is driving a new J4500 around which has no fleet numbers and was reported a demonstrator. Looks real nice even in plain white: https://www.flickr.com/photos/greatcoinzprod/16075040322/sizes/l.

Really don't know why it's "First Student Canada", can't imagine a J4500 being used as a school bus. Perhaps GLC will order some of those since First Group's annual report says they will return GLC to "sustained profitability" through the addition of more express service and improved package express service.

I've never really understood why the J4500 has been bestseller for so long. Don't know much about it and haven't ridden more than few.

 

[mightyjoe1201]

Yeah, that would probably have been me. Its at the Church Street Station here in Hazleton. We are on one side and trailways is on the other