Greyhound seats and fleet questions

[Swadian Hardcore]

True, those show rubber bumpers. The CNG is a D4000CT which is the "shorty" version. I'm not sure MCI should slap the J4500 steering system onto the D4500CT considering how the vehicles are structured differently. For the D4500CT to achieve a 40'11" turning circle, it would probably need not only IFS, but also a trailing tag axle, because J4500 had the same turning circle as the D4500CT before IFS without a trailing tag axle. Every 45-footer D since the 102DL3 has had the trailing tag.

I used to think these Ds would be great intercity coaches, but now I withdraw my statement that, if I were an intercity operator, I would buy the D4500CL with tons of upgrades. Now that MCI seems to have inconsistent quality and is doing especially poorly with private-sector D-units, I would probably be divided between the H and J. I still wouldn't buy the X, however, because the weighs the same as the H and has no obvious advantages. The X does not appear to be more durable than the H.

What would you buy?

 

[rickycourtney]

I'm starting to get the feeling you didn't actually read the link I posted. All your questions about the trailing axle are answered in there. I also think it's a bit of a stretch to say they are "slapping" it on, there's clearly plenty of engineering going on considering they are testing prototype buses right now.

If I was a line haul operator I'd probably buy an X. But if I did occasional charters or ran a luxury line I'd go with the H.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

No, I didn't read the whole article. I just read parts on the J4500.

Why would you buy the X instead of the H?

 

[rickycourtney]

Look I think your opinion of the D4505 and the X3-45 is tainted by Greyhound's awful choice in seating.

I happen to think the X3-45 is a great bus for intercity routes (as much as I think *ANY* bus is good for intercity travel) and I think the D4505 is good.

Look, i've been on dozens of trips on the D4505s operating on the Amtrak California Thruway Motorcoach routes and always found it to be an enjoyable experience... but they have comfortable seats.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

OTOH, D4505 #86352 not only had uncomfortable seats, it also had a rough ride, whereas the other D4505s don't have such a rough ride. Even MCI released the backwards admission that they've been building low-quality vehicles for a while. Greyhound has a much larger pool of D4505s than any Amtrak California contractor which could explain the glaring inconsistencies between Greyhound's D4505s.

I still don't see what advantages the X3-45 has over the H3-45 for intercity service other than faster loading/unloading or maybe crosswind handling, neither of which are easily tangible for intercity use. Whereas the H3-45 has advantages over the X3-45, like more luggage capacity and longer driving range, that could be useful for intercity use. I don't think the X is more durable either, though it's not less durable. That's why I would not use the X3-45 for intercity use, nor would I use the D4505 due to the inconsistencies of that model (and I don't like the Cummins engine). I'm not a J4500 fan either, having been on multiple J4500s that had mechanical problems, but I hope the Restyled J4500 is better, as drivers have said.

So yeah, I think the best intercity motorcoach in production is the H3-45, followed by the Restyled J4500, followed by the X3-45, followed by the D4505. I cannot find evidence than the X is better than the H or the D is better than the J.

 

[rickycourtney]

I'm curious to know the "list" prices for each coach, but it seems to be an industry secret.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Yes, it's an industry secret. I asked on GTE for the prices, and the manager of Certified Transportation, Eric Gregory, replied saying that it's confidential. Certified Transportation recently took delivery of some new Restyled J4500s; they also have a D4005 for smaller groups. They also have Van Hools and Prevosts. Some of their Van Hools run for Amtrak California Thruway service.

Too bad there's no MSRP for motorcoaches. I'm sure that you can find some clues in Metro Magazine and National Bus Trader.

This recent article on Metro Magazine says that 7 slightly upgraded H3-45s for Indian Trails' Michigan Flyer cost $3.8 million: http://www.metro-magazine.com/motorcoach/news/292744/michigan-flyer-adds-7-luxury-coaches.

They're equipped with Amaya Torino G Plus seating, enclosed parcel racks, TV's, Wi-Fi (and outlets?) and swap-and-plug wheelchair lifts: http://www.michiganflyer.com/portals/0/Images/innerbus-big.jpg.

The "stock" H3-45 has open parcel racks, no wheelchair lift, no Wi-Fi, and no TVs, so they'll probably cost $500,000 apiece. Eric did say a wheelchair lift costs $20,000-30,000 extra in a new coach, up to $60,000 for a retrofit. So a "stock" H3-45 with WCL but no extra bells or whistles will probably cost about $525,000, which would be a bit more than the X3-45, which Greyhound says costs $500,000 with WCL. Again, for a bit more, I would rather have the H than the X.

 

[rickycourtney]

Where did Greyhound say that an X3-45 costs $500,000?

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Didn't David Leach say in a news release that he was rebuilding motorcoaches (102DL3s) at $120,000 when a new motorcoach would have cost $500,000? You quoted that news release sometime back. A new motorcoach for Greyhound is the X3-45. I doubt the D4505 is that different in price.

 

[railiner]

I'm curious to know the "list" prices for each coach, but it seems to be an industry secret.

Did you try calling their sales office for a quote?

I suppose they would only reply to what they would consider a "serious" query.....

 

[rickycourtney]

Didn't David Leach say in a news release that he was rebuilding motorcoaches (102DL3s) at $120,000 when a new motorcoach would have cost $500,000? You quoted that news release sometime back. A new motorcoach for Greyhound is the X3-45. I doubt the D4505 is that different in price.

That's true he did say “New buses configured the way we wanted them would have cost $500,000 each”. I'd just like to see a more accurate figure.

Did you try calling their sales office for a quote?

I suppose they would only reply to what they would consider a "serious" query.....

No, but Swad did once. He got hung up on then got scolded by the Greyhound enthusiasts over on GTE. :giggle:

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I'm curious to know the "list" prices for each coach, but it seems to be an industry secret.

Did you try calling their sales office for a quote? I suppose they would only reply to what they would consider a "serious" query.....

:blink:

Didn't David Leach say in a news release that he was rebuilding motorcoaches (102DL3s) at $120,000 when a new motorcoach would have cost $500,000? You quoted that news release sometime back. A new motorcoach for Greyhound is the X3-45. I doubt the D4505 is that different in price.

That's true he did say “New buses configured the way we wanted them would have cost $500,000 each”. I'd just like to see a more accurate figure.

Did you try calling their sales office for a quote?

I suppose they would only reply to what they would consider a "serious" query.....

No, but Swad did once. He got hung up on then got scolded by the Greyhound enthusiasts over on GTE. :giggle:

I did? No I didn't. What I did do once was ask for a quote on the H3-45 and was told it'd be $510-525k. I also asked for the D4505 and J4500 and got ~$540k and $535-545k respectively. Then the guy on GTE told me the H3-45 figures were "closer to the actual figures", but when I asked for specific figures, he said that it's confidential. Now, the guy that told me that doesn't use WCLs, and the H3-45 I asked for a quote on included a WCL.

So overall, since the H3-45 figures were cheaper than the J4500 figures, I'm guessing a big new motorcoach would be about $500,000 for a MCI or Prevost. As for specific prices, IDK, but looking at the Metro Magazine article and the other clues I have, I'm guessing the H3-45 is going to be $525k with WCL or $500k with no WCL, add more for extras like TVs or enclosed parcel racks, etc.

No idea at all for the D, J, or X, but since the D and X have been ordered by public transit agencies, they should have prices released publically.

 

[rickycourtney]

Working on a trip report for your recent jaunt down to Los Angeles?

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Naw, but I can post a photo travelogue.

That reminds me, I'm wondering why Greyhound rebuilt the G4500s instead of finishing the DL3 rebuilds. For example, why did Greyhound rebuild #7104, a G4500 that smelled like burning plastic and was the worst Greyhound I've ever taken, instead of rebuilding #60556, a DL3 that already has a (factory-installed) wheelchair lift? Of course, all the G4500s do have wheelchair lifts.

My guess is that the G4500s must get much better MPG than the DL3s or else they wouldn't have tried putting lipstick on a pig. OTOH, the G4500 rebuilds seem to have done well and I saw three blue ones at Los Angeles. I only got the number of #7025. It was sitting in the shop getting work done, but in the evening, it went to the Ready Lot for departure the next day. Another one was sitting by the shop and the third one pulled out.

All I know so far is that the Blue G4500s seem to dominate all Greyhound's relatively-new long-haul corridors. I hope Greyhound will take advantage of the G4500s long range and cut some of those boring refueling stops, a Blue G should be able to do New York City-Saint Louis or Los Angeles-Portland on one tank with no problems. The Sacramento refueling stop really sucks for through passengers; they have to get off the bus with a reboarding pass and claim their baggage as well while the motorcoach drives out for the refuel. The Sacramento refuel location seems to be very far from the bus terminal. They have to actually go out on I-5 and it usually take 1 hour for the refueling and cleaning.

BTW, the second worst Greyhound I've ridden was #86352, to emphasize how bad it was.

 

[rickycourtney]

The Greyhound Lines Wikipedia page says that Greyhound Express passengers...

are assigned to a boarding group, which means that passengers who purchased their tickets earlier get to board the bus and choose their seats earlier.

Is that true? I thought boarding groups were only a BoltBus thing. Is that the possible reason for the boarding number?

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

No, it isn't true. Remember when I rode 1446? That was most definitely an "express", or actually, more like a "semi-express", but anyway, no boarding groups used. I did see it in use for Los Angeles-Las Vegas, but it's definitely not used most of the time.

So please, if you can, do edit it to say that it is usually not used. I'm not sure what source you would cite, so that's why I say if you can.

Any idea why Greyhound was rebuilding G4500s instead of finishing 102DL3 rebuilds?

Also, what do you think about standardization vs specialization? Is it better for bus operators in general, not just Greyhound, but bus operators in general, to use only one bus model for everything, or to use different model for different tasks?

 

[rickycourtney]

No, it isn't true. Remember when I rode 1446? That was most definitely an "express", or actually, more like a "semi-express", but anyway, no boarding groups used. I did see it in use for Los Angeles-Las Vegas, but it's definitely not used most of the time.

So please, if you can, do edit it to say that it is usually not used. I'm not sure what source you would cite, so that's why I say if you can.

Just so I'm clear, sometimes they use the boarding numbers, just not consistently? Have you seen them use it for any route or just to the Greyhound express routes?

Any idea why Greyhound was rebuilding G4500s instead of finishing 102DL3 rebuilds?

Educated guess... Greyhound didn't rebuild the 102DL3 units that weren't worth it for whatever reason. They may have some sort of defect (still roadworthy, but not able to be repaired), had been rebuilt somewhat recently or they were just simply too old. There's no point in spending $120,000 on a rebuild when the bus will only be on the streets for a few more years.

Considering ABC has closed the rebuild shop, Greyhound will probably never rebuild the 102DL3s that aren't rebuilt now.

Also it appears that the G4500 refurb was done in house by Greyhound. My guess is that there was no major mechanical work (like replacing the engines). Greyhound just picked the 175 best G4500 units, did some much needed maintenance and gave them a fresh coat of paint. The rest were retired (over 200 units by my count).

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

A GTE source says GLI, GLC, and all subsidiaries took delivery of 446 G4500s. So yes, well over 200 should have been retired, though I did see a bunch of White G4500s sitting in Los Angeles. #7158 and #7273 were sitting in the shop and an Americanos one (#60693) was sitting in the Ready Lot, meaning all three of those are still in service, otherwise they would be sitting in the boneyard. For the record, there was a D4505 in the boneyard, probably burned out of commission.

As for the boarding numbers, I've only seen them in use once or twice at the most. I can say that, in the vast majority of my experience, boarding numbers are not used, and I've never had them used on me. However, they are issued for both express and local tickets.

Reboarding passes are used all the time, however, and I saw them in use for through passengers going north of SAC on 1446.

Another GTE source says that, when he drives the rebuilt G4500s, he feels like they are much different from the original G4500s. He says they have a noticeably larger turning circle, and thinks that Greyhound replaced or at least partially replaced the axles and suspension. Also, when I was riding #7029, I noticed that the original spiral entryway of the G4500 had been replaced by a straight-diagonal entryway. It wasn't like the L-shaped ones on most motorcoaches, but it was definitely straight. I guess it would be best described as a K-shaped entryway.

So I'm guessing Greyhound did do heavy work on the rebuilt G4500s.

Maybe another reason some DL3s did not get rebuilt could have been rust. I know some parts of the DL3 are stainless steel, but there's still the aluminum roof or mild-steel sidebelt that could get corroded easily, especially the former. The G4500, with its fiberglass roof, wouldn't get corroded at all. I'm guessing that this, along with the fuel economy, could have convinced Greyhound into the rebuilds.

Unfortunately, GLC is still operating white G4500s a lot and have recently applied new decals to them, as seen on recent photos. The old dog decals were replaced with new ones. GLC appears to have no replacements for the G4500s, even though drivers loathe them.

 

[rickycourtney]

I'm sorry... I just doubt that Greyhound did any heavy overhauls to the G4500... at least nothing to the level the 102DL3 got.

Again, I believe Greyhound simply picked the 175 best G4500 units, did some much needed maintenance, installed power outlets and Wi-Fi, resurfaced the seats and gave them a fresh coat of paint.

I think a lot of the "improvements" you see on the G4500 come from the fact that they finally got a lot maintenance had been deferred when Greyhound was considering retiring them all (why spend money on a bus you're just going to send to the scrap yard).

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Then, uh, perhaps the big question would be: why did Greyhound suddenly decide to keep the G4500s instead of retiring them? And also, if the G4500 problems were caused by deferred maintenance, why were they bad from the beginning? Looking back to GTE posts in 2001, some people were already spewing hate on them and by 2002, the G4500s were the topic of the day, with many haters and a few trying to defend them while others were dumbfounded at Greyhound's continued G4500 orders.

In fact, Greyhound's parent at the time, Laidlaw, had gone bankrupt in 2001, and Greyhound likely could not afford anything else that was even close in capability to the G4500. They might have been able to afford Van Hools, but the G4500 "paper capabilities" are on-par with the H3-45.

I'll have to say, the ex-Americanos DL3s I rode on did get some upgrades but were not rebuilt. Most of the passengers probably didn't care except for the white scheme on the outside. Could Greyhound have done the same to the G4500s except with the addition of the new livery? Yeah, I guess they could have. I'm not sure how much it would be to install a new stairwell and steering axle.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Greyhound Canada is currently running a special Vancouver-Calgary one-way overnight Limited to handle extra passenger loads. Vancouver-Calgary is completely sold out to the last seat on every run tomorrow.

Attached is a screenshot of the run.

I wonder if GLC will consider making this a daily service, or at least run it daily in the summer. Maybe they will run a daytime version, too. The overnight Limited is a fast ride, but the passengers are missing some of the best scenery in Canada!

January 2nd, 2015 GLC 5620 Extra Limited VAN-CGY.pdf

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Remember this? https://www.flickr.com/photos/102351503@N04/15981113038/in/pool-northamericanmotorcoach/.

I found two interior shots and I was very surprised to find that it has a lavatory and Amaya A2-TEN seating.

Interior shots:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/102351503@N04/16167797612/sizes/l
https://www.flickr.com/photos/102351503@N04/16167797972/sizes/l.

I wonder if Greyhound will consider ordering Amaya A2-TEN now or maybe Torino G Plus. Looks like no more transit agencies will be ordering American Seating 2095. Of course, I hope Greyhound will order National 4210SB10 with winged headrests. This is the improved version of the old Nationals and meets the highest FMVSS. I tried out an old 4210S and found it to be more comfortable than the 4210A, which was the old standard National. The 4210SB10 also has true winged headrests available.

Also, Peter Pan's new weird-looking D4500CT: https://www.flickr.com/photos/49401850@N07/15388134743.

 

[rickycourtney]

Remember this? https://www.flickr.com/photos/102351503@N04/15981113038/in/pool-northamericanmotorcoach/.

I found two interior shots and I was very surprised to find that it has a lavatory and Amaya A2-TEN seating.

Interior shots:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/102351503@N04/16167797612/sizes/l

https://www.flickr.com/photos/102351503@N04/16167797972/sizes/l.

To my understanding, NJT specs lavatories on their coaches that will be uses on very long routes.
Oh and those headlights look sharp!

I wonder if Greyhound will consider ordering Amaya A2-TEN now or maybe Torino G Plus.

They'd be crazy not to look at every available option.

Looks like no more transit agencies will be ordering American Seating 2095.

Why do you say that? If a transit agency is exercising options on another agency's order, it can still specify whatever seating it wishes.

Also, Peter Pan's new weird-looking D4500CT: https://www.flickr.com/photos/49401850@N07/15388134743.

Said it before, I'll say it again: Peter Pan's livery is just AWFUL.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I definitely share your dislike of the Peter Pan livery! About the seats, American Seating 2095 doesn't meet the latest FMVSS so it will have to go out of production sooner or later, sharing the fare of the Patriot PT, which is a lot more comfortable. Sooner or later, transit agencies will have to choose between the same seats in commuter coaches that the private sector has available to them.

Those headlights do look sharp, I'm not sure about the entire coach, though. The LED headlights and big headsign don't really mix well with the silversides and framed windows.

As far as seating goes, I think the Big Three (American, Amaya, National) are offering:

• American Seating Premier LS
• Amaya A2-TEN
• Amaya Torino G/G Plus
• National 4210AB10
• National 4210SB10

Of those, I've not tried out the newer Amayas yet, but both Nationals would kick the American Seating down the toilet. Amongst the Nationals, "S" is better than the "A" and is extremely ergonomic. "S" also has the most recline in the industry. I've only tried out the old unbelted versions, but the belted version should not be that different.

 

[rickycourtney]

Back to the wheelchair lift discussion... check out what National Express uses over in the UK.



When a wheelchair is secured, only 1 seating position is eliminated and the passenger using a wheelchair also gets back support and increased containment in a crash. In the case of National Express they have 50 seats, so when a wheelchair is used there are 48 seats + 1 wheelchair. That way they can book 49 passengers and never worry about overbooking.
The only downside I can see to the front door lift system is that you can't slope the front few rows of seats (which is kind of a gimmick in my opinion).