LD Train Travel Then vs now

[railiner]

The main difference to remember between then and now is the relative importance of rail travel as a mode of transportation. Back then (post war until mid '60's), they carried most long distance passengers. So there were lots of trains to choose from. Locals, expresses, milk runs, limiteds, etc. And in many cases two or more railroads competing for passengers on several routes. So the service reflected that. And service on most roads was pretty decent, until passengers started leaving them for jets, auto's and buses on interstates, etc. And when the Post Office ended the carriage of most mail in the late '60's, that was the final straw for most roads. There were a few roads that as mentioned provided excellent service up to A-day, while others tried their hardest to discourage rail travel and kill trains.

One of my favorites at the end was the seasonal SCL Florida Special. It billed itself as "The Champagne Train". It had a recreation lounge card that showed movies, showed tv news where available, had a public radiotelephone, had a fashion show(!), and had bingo and other games conducted by the train hostess and passenger service representative. The dining car had the champagne flowing, and actually had candles burning (don't know how safe that was) on the dining room tables with dimmed lighting like in a fine restaurant. The train ran NYP to MIA in only 24 hours and made few stops. Most passengers were thru passengers. There was an extra fare to ride that train.

 

[jphjaxfl]

I was born in 1948 and my Dad worked for the New York Central in the midwest. My first train trip was on the Rocky Mountain Rocket from Joliet, Il to Council Bluffs, IA when I was less than a month old. The food and service on the passenger trains in the 1950s and early 1960s was better than anything Amtrak has offered except during the first 2-3 years when the Railroads were still operating the service. Traveling in Pullman Cars was strictly first class. I don't think even first class air travel could compare. The menus in the Dining Car fantastic and had lots of regional favorites. The larger railroads like the Santa Fe had their own farms for raising cattle and produce served on the trains. I learned to enjoy different foods from trying new things from the Dining Car Menus. I remember eating Boston Scrod for the first time. Many of the dessert items like pies and cakes were made right on the Dining Car. The Lounge Cars were great places for really relaxing. You didn't have to go to a counter like now. Most of the cars had a door bell type button by each seat that you pushed for service which was very prompt. You tipped well for the service, but it was truly superb. Things have changed all over as far as service is concerned in the US. Only very expensive upscale hotels and restaurants have service today that would equal that of The Pullman Company and I am not sure passengers today would be willing to play for that kind of service and certainly the government couldn't be expected to subsidize that kind of service. My wife and I spent a week in a Four Seasons Hotel at a conference this past summer. The service was equal to the Pullman Company with guests every needs being anticipated by the staff, most of which come from foreign countries. 21st Century Travelers also have greater needs and expectations than those of the mid 20th Century when the service on trains was still excellent. I don't foresee the truly luxurious train travel ever making a comeback.

 

[jis]

An unfortunate aspect of LD trains as late as after the second World War (some as recent as 1961 when ICC banned such) was the existence of the so called Jim Crow segregation, which would effectively make facilities like lounge cars unavailable for use of colored people. Here is a good description of the situation based on first hand experience, excerpted from a posting in a discussion thread on this subject at the Classic Trains Magazine web site:

Going south from Penn Station during WWII, all the streamliners of the Southern, ACL, and SAL, and through coaches on the Havana Special, were segregated, with separate coaches for black passengers. Segregation was not practiced in room sleeping cars, because the use of separate room was considered enough segregation. There may have been segregated section sleepers, but I did not experience them. Generally, if black people traveled Pullman, they bought room space . I was told it was difficult for them to buy section space (upper and lower berths). Most dining cars on these trains had a glass dividing wall with a small seating area used by black passengers (2 or 4 tables seating 8 or 16), but the steward had some flexibility on handling the situation. It was rare to see a black in the lounge cars except for the attendent.

Whenever these discussions of the halcyon days of passenger railroads come up, I am given a pause thinking how much of that may not have been accessible to many of the ancestors of folks that are now our friends. Indeed, the definition of "*****" used by the staff would probably have determined whether I or my parents would have been allowed in the lounge cars. Remember that scene from the film "Gandhi" in South Africa where he gets unceremoniously chucked out of a first class car in the middle of nowhere because of his race? I am glad we are passed that.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

It wasn't just segregation-- it is also a story of your Pullman Porter-- a person who rose out of that mess, but could never truly escape it. He was also a person who knew that, without that job, he'd be in the cold grip of that date and time's reality.

I am sometimes amazed by the humanity displayed by people on these boards. Those of you who have some deeper connection to those days than I, have made me happy.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Having just begun regularly using trains for LD train travel 8 years ago, I always wonder what it was like traveling during rhe golden age of passenger rail. Today we have far fewer routes, many major cities are no longer served, many beautiful train stations lie closed or fallen to the wrecking ball but long distance trains still survive. The porters (now called SCA's) are still doing their job, the dining cars still serve decent meals and the sleeping accomodations are very similar to what was offered way back when. So what are the main differences?

From reading many books on the subject it appears that the main changes are that todays trains are rather stark and utilitarian. If you look at pictures of say the 20th Century Limited, you will see the use of beautiful hardwoods, wooden furniture, nice carpeting, venetian blinds, lovely curtains and the crews were impecibly dressed (as where the passengers). The dining cars offered wider and more gourmet food choices and it was common to see a whilte tablecloth and a vase of fresh flowers on the table. In the dining cars tables and chairs were used instead of the booths that we now see but the sleepers (except for the Pullman section cars) appear very much as they did back in the day. I determined this after touring many of the old sleeping cars at many RR museums and riding on tourist trains. Trains during the 30's, 40's and 50's also had more than one observation car, a lounge and many had two dining cars. It appeared that train travel was far more elegant back then but it had to be as fares were fixed by the government and railroads had to compete for business by offering better amemities. Today while the glamour is gone we at least have something to enjoy the experience

If there is anyone here who has researched the subject or had the opportunity to expereince travel during that period please share your experience.

Having ridden the Super Chief and City of Los Angeles as a teen, I think that the Pullman roomettes were a step above today's Amtrak economy bedroom. The Pullman roomette had a sink and toilet in the room, tho you had to put the bed back into the wall at night if you needed to use the loo (as the bed came down from the wall and rested on the toilet seat). The room was bigger, too. Today's Economy Bedroom strikes me as the old upper/lower berths set up with a door added, and nothing more. To be sure, it's still preferable to coach.

I have ridden in many older style roomettes. It was very easy to get the bed up and down.The amount of room in today's roomettes for two has the same "feel" to me as an older roomette for one. That is to say,I think today's roomettes are rather cramped for two. But I am a heavyset person, which probably helps to cause that feeling.

 

[Larry H.]

The roomettes of old were more comfortable in that they had a very tiny, but larger than now closet. A toilet in every room and I always loved the little stainless steel fold down sinks and mirror with back lighting, it just made one feel more self contained than the ones now where all you have is a small seat facing each other and having to run down the hall and down the steps in the middle of the night just doesn't seem as convenient or private as having your own toilet even if you had to step slightly into the aisle to bring up the bed. Which by the way was quite easy compared to the way they have to be made up now.

I have been thinking the past few days about the evident disconnect between those of us who granted, older rode the previous generation of equipment and those who have only an amtrak experience to relate too. To often our thoughts about the friendliness and thoughtful decor of the old trains has been taken to mean "rich people riding in opulent surroundings". Frankly that is totally not the case when one relates it to the times. Over the years it is somewhat true that various generations have grown up in different aspects of what seems normal to them, and was normal for the time. I don't think anyone had the idea that riding in a roomette was a glamours thing, it was offered for bit higher charge to people who would prefer some privacy and a way to sleep more comfortably. But it certainly wasn't the height of luxury some would have us think now. If you look at any earlier buildings they were much more ornate in design an interior space than a extremely modern one is today. Todays is elegant but in a different way. And small touches can and do make a big difference is how a space is perceived. Movie theaters as I mentioned on another post were designed for the masses in the thirties, but they were opulent and inviting for a reason. It helped to bring in the customers to that theater. They weren't rich people for the most part, in fact the movies were a great distraction for those in the mist of a depression and yet the surroundings were made to lift people up. When your rode with your working class grand parents they didn't get a room because they thought it was "uppity" they did it for comfort at a slightly higher cost. It was normal, it wasn't class warfare as it seems to be made out by some today. Maybe someone rich enough to have a private car would of course be considered out of the norm but that was not mass of travelers, and in fact just looking at the crowd today I would say that most in the sleepers are not rich by any means. They just wish the same choice that railroads have always offered. The lounges and diners were standard for the times and yes they looked nice, but so did nearly any restaurant that served decent food at the time. Look at the Walnut room at the old Marshal Fields, or the huge and decorative atriums on either end of the main building. Seeing it today one might think it was designed for the upper class, but in fact it was only a product of its time and made to be interesting to the normal everyday shoppers. Radio City Music Hall surly one of the finest and most decorative theaters around, and still highly popular, wouldn't have been considered the play ground of the rich. Compared to a metroplex today with tiny theaters all piled into one structure you might think it was if you had no other reference. So I think those who wonder why some of us think like we do need to take a deep breath, its not class warfare or extravagant luxury we talk about, its the little touches that make a design more appealing one from another, and there is nothing wrong with referencing some of the greatest trains in our history when discussing it.

 

[jis]

Larry makes a good point, though in constant dollar value, as someone has illustrated in this thread earlier, train travel was much more expensive back then than it is now.

It should also be noted that even in the Amtrak era many classic 10-6s were run unmodified for quite a while. The Superliners and Viewliners came much later.

My experience is in riding those per-Super/Viewliner sleepers, the old Slumbercoaches, and also in riding the VIA Manor and Chateau cars. The single rooms in the VIA cars are substantially similar to the classic single rooms, with the bed folding up into the wall using a spring loaded mechanism, exposing the commode under it, and the classic fold down sinks etc.

I wish there was some way to get Slumbercoaches back. The closest thing to that kind of accommodation, at least in so far as sleeping facilities is concerned, that one can find today, alas, is only on international long distance planes in the lie flat seats in Business and First Class accommodations.

 

[Big Iron]

An unfortunate aspect of LD trains as late as after the second World War (some as recent as 1961 when ICC banned such) was the existence of the so called Jim Crow segregation, which would effectively make facilities like lounge cars unavailable for use of colored people. Here is a good description of the situation based on first hand experience, excerpted from a posting in a discussion thread on this subject at the Classic Trains Magazine web site:

Going south from Penn Station during WWII, all the streamliners of the Southern, ACL, and SAL, and through coaches on the Havana Special, were segregated, with separate coaches for black passengers. Segregation was not practiced in room sleeping cars, because the use of separate room was considered enough segregation. There may have been segregated section sleepers, but I did not experience them. Generally, if black people traveled Pullman, they bought room space . I was told it was difficult for them to buy section space (upper and lower berths). Most dining cars on these trains had a glass dividing wall with a small seating area used by black passengers (2 or 4 tables seating 8 or 16), but the steward had some flexibility on handling the situation. It was rare to see a black in the lounge cars except for the attendent.

Whenever these discussions of the halcyon days of passenger railroads come up, I am given a pause thinking how much of that may not have been accessible to many of the ancestors of folks that are now our friends. Indeed, the definition of "*****" used by the staff would probably have determined whether I or my parents would have been allowed in the lounge cars. Remember that scene from the film "Gandhi" in South Africa where he gets unceremoniously chucked out of a first class car in the middle of nowhere because of his race? I am glad we are passed that.

Back in the early 80's I was taking night classes and would stay after work to study. During that time I got to know our janitor, Roosevelt, very well. Rosie was African American, in his late 70's at the time. I got to talking about a train trip I was taking to Chicago and he said he had never been to Chicago so I asked him to join me. We rode coach from RVR to NYP and then each had a slumbercoach roundtrip on the LSL. Upon arriving at NYP we were informed that the slumbercoach was bad ordered and were offered a bedroom in a substitute 10-6 sleeper. Upon boarding the bedroom it was obvious this car had been snatched from the repair lot as its paint was peeling, carpets worn and seats stained. I was thinking what a crappy car this was until Rosie, with eyes as big as saucers, said "In my day a black man couldn't travel like this." He was absolutely thrilled and had the time of his life. I learned a great deal spending the trip with a man 50 years my senior whose life was made harder for no other reason than his skin color. He was a kind, gentle, caring man whom I miss very much.

 

[Pastor Dave]

I wish there was some way to get Slumbercoaches back. The closest thing to that kind of accommodation, at least in so far as sleeping facilities is concerned, that one can find today, alas, is only on international long distance planes in the lie flat seats in Business and First Class accommodations.

My first sleeper experiences were in a Slumbercoach and it was a nice way for a single to travel. Does anyone know when they would have been built? Would hey be older than some of the sleepers still on-line?

 

[had8ley]

I think the one aspect that I feel has drastically changed RR'ing is that there is no competition for Amtrak.And they're having a tough time retaining OBS. Granted,NJT,MARC and METRA have dual stops but they're not a real threat to the Amtrak system. What is interesting is the pre-Amtrak RR's were competitive. Any RR president in the pre-Amtrak days would laugh at you if you asked him if his all Pullman pax trains made money.The lowly locals probably turned more revenue in postal contracts and RPO's. The stainless steel varnish and linen table cloths were to woo pax off of other RR's~ a real capitalistic environment. Now that we're down to one system we have to eat what Amtrak puts on the table~ even if it is crow.Don't ask a chef to bake a birthday cake for you today~ I don't even know if they have the means to do so. My grand-father and I celebrated his 75th birthday with a cake baked on board the 20th Century Limited in 1959. Don't think we'll ever see that again!

 

[dlagrua]

I played the video here on the Santa Fe Super Chief train of the 1950's and it must have been awesome back then. Multiple observation cars, 100% Sleepers, lounges, dining cars, a barber shop, fancy decor and even an upscale diner restaurant for the well to do. It was elegant. The only thing that I did not notice were showers. I believe that the only shower was located in the Barber Shop but what did the ladies do?

Also the travel time from Chicago to Los Angeles Union Station was only 37 hours. It was only 24 hours to Albuqurque NM. That shows you how far train travel has regresssed.

 

[had8ley]

I wish there was some way to get Slumbercoaches back. The closest thing to that kind of accommodation, at least in so far as sleeping facilities is concerned, that one can find today, alas, is only on international long distance planes in the lie flat seats in Business and First Class accommodations.

My first sleeper experiences were in a Slumbercoach and it was a nice way for a single to travel. Does anyone know when they would have been built? Would hey be older than some of the sleepers still on-line?

The Slumbercoaches were built in the middle fifties when the RR's started to realize that everyone wanted a car in their garage and weren't interested in train travel as their only means of transportation.Pullman prices were really stiff as you had to pay a Pullman rail fare (higher than regular coach),then tack on your room charge then add your meals and drinks (no freebies back then except for coffe hour on a few crack trains). You could buy a slumbercoach room with a regular coach ticket; probably an economy move to lure the pax out of his car.It was the beginning of the end for Pullman as most of the RR's owned their own slumbercoaches versus Pullman owning and operating the regular sleepers at super high rail and room fares.

 

[Anderson]

For some reason I thought Pullman got broken up in an antitrust suit, and that's when the RRs were able to get their own cars. Until then, Pullman was sort of like AT&T: They still owned the car; you (the RR) just rented it.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

My first sleeper experiences were in a Slumbercoach and it was a nice way for a single to travel. Does anyone know when they would have been built? Would hey be older than some of the sleepers still on-line?

On the contrary, Silvers Siesta, Rest, Slumber, and Repose were built in 1956 (tieing themselves with the second newest sleepers Amtrak owned) while Lochs Sloy, Lomond, Leven, Ness, Tarbert, Katrine, Lochy, Tay, Rannoch, Akaig and Awe were the newest sleepers Amtrak owned built in 1959. The last 10-6s retired by Amtrak were of the Pacific/Pine build and were built in 1950, converted into dorms and retired around 2007. The only Heritage 10-6 cars left in Amtrak service are some Special Service cars of the Pacific build (Command, Patrol, and Forrest) built in 1950.

I played the video here on the Santa Fe Super Chief train of the 1950's and it must have been awesome back then. Multiple observation cars, 100% Sleepers, lounges, dining cars, a barber shop, fancy decor and even an upscale diner restaurant for the well to do. It was elegant. The only thing that I did not notice were showers. I believe that the only shower was located in the Barber Shop but what did the ladies do?

Also the travel time from Chicago to Los Angeles Union Station was only 37 hours. It was only 24 hours to Albuqurque NM. That shows you how far train travel has regresssed.

They didn't shower. Showering was a luxury back then, and only the very wealthiest passengers rented the Master Rooms that had showers.

Also, its currently 26 hours to ABQ right now. I don't see that a great "distance" of regression. Especially since the Chief was operated at a speed that is now considered to be unsafe.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Larry makes a good point, though in constant dollar value, as someone has illustrated in this thread earlier, train travel was much more expensive back then than it is now.

It should also be noted that even in the Amtrak era many classic 10-6s were run unmodified for quite a while. The Superliners and Viewliners came much later.

My experience is in riding those per-Super/Viewliner sleepers, the old Slumbercoaches, and also in riding the VIA Manor and Chateau cars. The single rooms in the VIA cars are substantially similar to the classic single rooms, with the bed folding up into the wall using a spring loaded mechanism, exposing the commode under it, and the classic fold down sinks etc.

I wish there was some way to get Slumbercoaches back. The closest thing to that kind of accommodation, at least in so far as sleeping facilities is concerned, that one can find today, alas, is only on international long distance planes in the lie flat seats in Business and First Class accommodations.

When built about 1954 sleeper terminology on both CN and CP was the same as in the states..A roomette was a roomette. VIA recently changed the terms to something they felt would be more user friendly.

 

[dlagrua]

Also, its currently 26 hours to ABQ right now. I don't see that a great "distance" of regression. Especially since the Chief was operated at a speed that is now considered to be unsafe.

Time to LAX is now 43 hours and was 37 hours so we are definitley going backwards. As for speeds I can't find info on too many Super Chief wrecks due to speed in that era. I beleive that it went along at 70 mph which should be close to what it travels at today.

If you viewed the Santa Fe Super Chief Video (that is on this post)you will see how my comments relate. Every rail travler should see this as we will probably never experience luxury rail travel like this in our lifetime. That upscale dining room on the Super Chief is really impressive. Its must have cost a small fortune to dine in that car.

 

[nferr]

It appears that just about everybody in those YouTube videos had a cigarette; I can imagine how smoky those lounge cars must have been. At least in that regard, Amtrak is a huge improvement.

Not too many years back the Amtrak lounges were just as smoky.It was awful.

 

[LA Resident]

Also, its currently 26 hours to ABQ right now. I don't see that a great "distance" of regression. Especially since the Chief was operated at a speed that is now considered to be unsafe.

Time to LAX is now 43 hours and was 37 hours so we are definitley going backwards. As for speeds I can't find info on too many Super Chief wrecks due to speed in that era. I beleive that it went along at 70 mph which should be close to what it travels at today.

If you viewed the Santa Fe Super Chief Video (that is on this post)you will see how my comments relate. Every rail travler should see this as we will probably never experience luxury rail travel like this in our lifetime. That upscale dining room on the Super Chief is really impressive. Its must have cost a small fortune to dine in that car.

It was called the Turquoise Room and definitely very fancy, had to be reserved in advance, mostly for private parties.

 

[dlagrua]

I can only find info that the Turquoise room seated 12 and was located in the rear of the observation lounge next to the dining car. It was a private dining car used most often by Hollywood celebrities and their friends. When it was not used for a private party other passengers were free to use it. Apparently the Turquoise room was heavily reserved by and for Hollywood Celebrities so it wasn't often that it was open to the general passenger population. .

Here is some additional info on the old Super Chief.

Industrial designer Sterling McDonald created the train’s classic interior Indian designs and themes. Whenever possible McDonald used authentic Native American (many of which depicted the Navajo) colors (such as turquoise and copper), patterns, and even authentic murals and paintings in the train. He used a combination of rare and exotic woods like ebony, teak, satinwood, bubinga, maccassar, and ribbon primavera for trim through the train giving the Super Chief an added touch of one-of-a-kind elegance.

Everything inside the train exuded the Native American culture and way of life. However, the Super Chief’s livery also conveyed this, if not to an even greater degree. The train’s now-classic “Warbonnet” paint scheme was actually designed by General Motors’ artist Leland Knickerbocker.

It must have been a wonderful expereince riding the Super Chief back then but as far as I can determine the slower trip times of today are probably a result of the additional stops and as Green Maned Lion mentioned train speed. The Santa Fe Super Chief did reach 100 MPH speeds back in the 40's and 50's. Remarkable speed for that era and on par with the Acela. Today the Super Chief is a Superliner train, not bad but probably nothing like the Santa Fe in the days of old.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I can only find info that the Turquoise room seated 12 and was located in the rear of the observation lounge next to the dining car. It was a private dining car used most often by Hollywood celebrities and their friends. When it was not used for a private party other passengers were free to use it. Apparently the Turquoise room was heavily reserved by and for Hollywood Celebrities so it wasn't often that it was open to the general passenger population. .

Here is some additional info on the old Super Chief.

Industrial designer Sterling McDonald created the train’s classic interior Indian designs and themes. Whenever possible McDonald used authentic Native American (many of which depicted the Navajo) colors (such as turquoise and copper), patterns, and even authentic murals and paintings in the train. He used a combination of rare and exotic woods like ebony, teak, satinwood, bubinga, maccassar, and ribbon primavera for trim through the train giving the Super Chief an added touch of one-of-a-kind elegance.

Everything inside the train exuded the Native American culture and way of life. However, the Super Chief’s livery also conveyed this, if not to an even greater degree. The train’s now-classic “Warbonnet” paint scheme was actually designed by General Motors’ artist Leland Knickerbocker.

It must have been a wonderful expereince riding the Super Chief back then but as far as I can determine the slower trip times of today are probably a result of the additional stops and as Green Maned Lion mentioned train speed. The Santa Fe Super Chief did reach 100 MPH speeds back in the 40's and 50's. Remarkable speed for that era and on par with the Acela. Today the Super Chief is a Superliner train, not bad but probably nothing like the Santa Fe in the days of old.

Slight tweak, the T room was in the midtrain dome lounge. "Observation car" meant the rounded rear end car at the back. Rumour has it that Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton once "rented" the Troom and stayed smashed the whole trip, and on their booze, not the railroads. A similar story is told about a country western singer (maybe Hank Williams???) who tore up the lounge car on Louisville and Nashville's Pan American. A less classy train but same classless behavior.

 

[Anderson]

As far as "going backward": The old Limiteds ran New York-Chicago in 16 hours. The LSL runs 19 hours westbound and 20 hours eastbound over what I believe to be a substantially similar route. Allowing an hour for new stops, that's still 2-3 hours more...or an increase in time of 1/8 on the low end, and 1/4 on the high end (4 hours added to the Eastbound trip).

 

[jis]

As far as "going backward": The old Limiteds ran New York-Chicago in 16 hours. The LSL runs 19 hours westbound and 20 hours eastbound over what I believe to be a substantially similar route. Allowing an hour for new stops, that's still 2-3 hours more...or an increase in time of 1/8 on the low end, and 1/4 on the high end (4 hours added to the Eastbound trip).

Didn't the old Limiteds run at a higher speed and didn't heads roll if there was too much interference in its path from freight or anything else? It is a different age with different priorities on the road requiring different amounts of padding.

 

[Anderson]

As far as "going backward": The old Limiteds ran New York-Chicago in 16 hours. The LSL runs 19 hours westbound and 20 hours eastbound over what I believe to be a substantially similar route. Allowing an hour for new stops, that's still 2-3 hours more...or an increase in time of 1/8 on the low end, and 1/4 on the high end (4 hours added to the Eastbound trip).

Didn't the old Limiteds run at a higher speed and didn't heads roll if there was too much interference in its path from freight or anything else? It is a different age with different priorities on the road requiring different amounts of padding.

You've partly hit on my point. What I get: Freight interference happens. I accept this. What I also get: Stops slow the train down. What I don't get: Track speed limits on a lot of those tracks being far lower now than in the 1960s (particularly on the NYC-Buffalo stretch).

 

[George Harris]

Track speeds:

I collect old employee timetables, and also have some information of more recent vintage. (3 to 4 years ago, quite a few employee timetables were available on a public web site if you knew where to look.)

One thing that is very important in understanding railroad speed limits: Just because a line has a speed limit of 79 mph, 90 mph, or whatever, does not mean that the train pulls out of the station, gets up to full speed, and stays there until it slows to a stop. Most lines will have numerous curves restricted to lower speeds than the line speed. There will be junction areas, crossovers, end of sidings, etc., with much lower speeds, commonly 25 mph or less.

There was also the factor that premier passenger trains were always operated by engineers that were at the very top of the seniority roster. These men, and they were always men at that time, knew their territory like the back of their hand so they knew how fast they could safely go an all points on their territory, regardless of the numbers in the timetable or posted along the track. Thus, if behind schedule, as a matter of pride, both theirs and the company's they would fudge the speeds as far as they dared to get the train back on time.

The first 100 mph allowable speeds go back to the 1930's with steam. The Milwaukee Road between Chicago and Minneapolis had this limit over a considerable part of the distance, and the line was mostly double track as well. This is the route used by the EB today. The line is mostly single track with a speed limit of 70 mph.

The Santa Fe was also early into the 100 mph speed limit game. Don't when it began, but list of allowed speeds for steam engiens by engine number could be found in employee timetables. There was both a 100 mph list and a 90 mph list. (Slower speeds also.) Much of the route used by the Southwest Chief permitted 100 mph though at least early 1960's.

The Union Pacific line across Nebraska and Wyoming allowed 90 mph all the way up to and including early Amtrak.

There were numerous other lines with 90 mph or 100 mph speed limits, as well. Many of these higher speed limits went down with the advent of the ICC (predecessor to the FRA) rule that required very specific minimum additions to the signals to run "80 mph or faster" and the most basic form of signals to be in place to run "60 mph or faster" These regulations are the father of the common 79 mph speed limit, and on some lines, such as the trains in Vermont and the Flomaton FL to Tallahassee FL secton of the Sunset-East route, their 59 mph speed limit.

Some specifics: In the northeast: Most of the Northeast Corridor had a speed limit of 80 mph during Pennsylvania Railroad days. This is now of course 110 mph and higher.

The New York Central had a speed limit of 85 mph for most of the route used by the Lakeshore Limited. The Twentieth Century maintained its schedule by having almost no stops, and of course being given absolute priority. The speed limit is now 79 mph. In addition, up until the 1950's the line had four main tracks throughout, two for passenger trains and two for freight trains. Beginning sometime during the 50's the outside track were taken up piece by piece.

I think the Pennsy limited their speeds to 80 mph. The Broadway Limited matched the 20th Century in time by having a route some 50 miles shorter, and again, being givven absolute priority. They also had four main track out of the east to at least as far as Pittsburg.

The Atlantic Coast Line allowed 100 mph on lengthy segments of their mostly double track main line between Richmond VA and Jacksonville FL. This was still at 90 mph into the early to mid 1960's. It is now 79 mph and most of the second main is gone.

When I see the current day City of New Orleans, I do not even want to think about it. Into the early 1960's both it and the overnight Panama Limited could be depended upon to make it between Chicago and New Orleans in 16 1/2 hours. There was a lengthy section in Illinois that permitted 100 mph, and most of the rest of the route was nominally 79 mph, which was usually observed only if the train was on time. Now it is all 79 mph or less, and the direct passenger route between Memphis and Jackson MS is no longer in use, and maybe not all still in place.

Some routes, such as the route used by the Texas Eagle between St. Louis and Poplar Bluff MO is lmited to 60 mph, but has never been faster.

 

[railiner]

That upscale dining room on the Super Chief is really impressive. Its must have cost a small fortune to dine in that car.

The way I understood it, the Turqoise Room was up for reservation by private parties for dinners, parties, or other functions. When not used for those purposes, it could be used either as additional lounge space, or could serve as 'overflow' seating for the adjacent dining car, which on the Santa Fe usually only seated 36 in spacious 4 and 2 tables. So there was not much tax on the kitchen to serve these extra tables.

I don't see any indication of any extra charge to dine in that room, so it was no more 'upscale' than the regular dining car.