Long Distance (LD) fleet replacement discussion (2022 - 2024Q1)

[daybeers]

I don't think anyone has ever heard of or seen an overnight train with two Sleepers that we are familiar with in the US.

Probably because it's idiotic.

I for one don't understand what's taking so long to restore the cars. NERs have regularly had longer consists than pre-pandemic for at least 18 months. I truly feel spoiled in the northeast when I think of the current state of the rest of the network.

 

[demonizedwater]

I think what you're seeing is some serious displeasure with what the rest of the world has moved on to. The 50s designs were focused on passenger comfort. The Amfleet I -> Amfleet II -> Superliner -> Viewliner sequence felt like steady improvement. Superliner coaches are the most comfortable public transport, in any country or century, that I've ridden.

As far as _coaches_, not sleepers? I raise you a specific type of PKP or ÖBB compartment coach (Poland and Austria). Ten or so compartments with 2 rows of 3 seats facing one another. They recline almost completely with the seat bottoms moving forward to meet in the middle, so if you have only 3 people in a compartment, you can lie down. And each 6-seater compartment gets individual control of HVAC temp and lighting. It's pretty badass.

 

[Steve4031]

As far as _coaches_, not sleepers? I raise you a specific type of PKP or ÖBB compartment coach (Poland and Austria). Ten or so compartments with 2 rows of 3 seats facing one another. They recline almost completely with the seat bottoms moving forward to meet in the middle, so if you have only 3 people in a compartment, you can lie down. And each 6-seater compartment gets individual control of HVAC temp and lighting. It's pretty badass.

Until you are sharing with strangers. A hard no in the United States.

 

[Mailliw]

I think compartment seating might be popular with families for day travel, but an entire car's worth isn't feasible. Besides isn't compartment seating on it's way out in Europe?

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

I think compartment seating might be popular with families for day travel, but an entire car's worth isn't feasible. Besides isn't compartment seating on it's way out in Europe?

I'd say so... Even back in the 80's compartments were fading to second tier trains from my recollection (DB, NSB, DSB, SJ). My most recent travel in Europe - which didn't have much rail - there were none even on the older trains (Renfe & CP).

 

[jiml]

I think compartment seating might be popular with families for day travel, but an entire car's worth isn't feasible. Besides isn't compartment seating on it's way out in Europe?

Yes, even our friend at Simply Railway alluded as much in one of his recent videos. Look no further than the multiple reviews of the new Nightjet "capsules". The times they are a-changing.

 

[demonizedwater]

I think compartment seating might be popular with families for day travel, but an entire car's worth isn't feasible. Besides isn't compartment seating on it's way out in Europe?

Yes and no .... PKP, ÖBB, and CD actually have some relatively new compartment stock (PKP ordered some brand-new ones this year, actually). It's actually great even as a solo traveler if you're not averse to talking to strangers a bit -- far more comfy and quieter than open-plan cars. Not in English, but the pictures are there:

https://www.rynek-kolejowy.pl/wiadomosci/pkp-intercity-pokazalo-nowe-wnetrze-wagonow-115295.html
PKP is interesting and great in that even many open-plan 1st class trains have predominantly facing seats around a table. People aren't expected to be asocials like in some other countries.

Recent travels:
Vienna-Prague has some open-section trains, some compartment trains. Warsaw-Berlin and Kraków-Berlin have compartment coaches as an option on basically all trains. Prague-Brno, some compartment coaches, some with facing seats but open-plan. Kraków-Zakopane, expresses have at least some compartment coaches, local (PolRegio) are open-plan but with facing "pods" of seats.

The amusingly named "Slovak Missile" train that I'm taking Brno to Bratislawa tomorrow is half and half, open-plan + compartment. Guess which I booked?

 

[demonizedwater]

Until you are sharing with strangers. A hard no in the United States.

It's sad how anti-social and averse to sharing space with strangers many Americans are. Part of the joy of travel in Eastern/Central Europe is talking to strangers.

I may add that if I take Acela in the US, I always book a table even when traveling alone, and I've had some amazing conversations with random people.

 

[user 29398]

I've had some amazing conversations but also had seatmates who clearly aren't all there mentally. Personally I relish the chance to get to know new people even if it doesn't always work out, but I can see why some people aren't chomping at the bit to share a compartment with Meth Man.

 

[demonizedwater]

I've had some amazing conversations but also had seatmates who clearly aren't all there mentally. Personally I relish the chance to get to know new people even if it doesn't always work out, but I can see why some people aren't chomping at the bit to share a compartment with Meth Man.

I'd rather take my chances with one out of 6 people being completely nutzo than one out of 70 or 80.

Also, haven't really experienced anyone dangerously unstable on Amtrak, at least in the Northeast ... this tends to be more of an urban public transit/subway issue. Doubly so with Europe ... there simply aren't as many people running amuck in public as in the US. Meth is somewhat of an issue in Czechia (it's called by the name "Pervitin", which was the WW2 German name for it), but even meth freaks tend to behave themselves better than in the US.

 

[jis]

Moderator’s Note: Time to get back to discussing the activities involved in LD rolling stock replacement. Thank you.

 

[Paniolo Man]

Christian Lenhart, coauthor of the Rio Grande Plan just uploaded a neat video discussing platform heights and how they relate to Amtrak's current and planned rolling stock. He talks about the Superliners and prospective replacements at 6 minutes.

 

[Awesometrainz]

To be honest they need work the height of this equipment out . Then we can have BI level trains as long as ADA can work with it

 

[GDRRiley]

To be honest they need work the height of this equipment out . Then we can have BI level trains as long as ADA can work with it

the standard height at this point is looking like 24in platforms with 23-25in floor railcars or the ~48in standard
the first is what europe low floor stock like KISS, FLIRTs ect use and with the new US regs it makes sense that shorter regional and intercity trips will grab those multiple units

 

[Awesometrainz]

Tbh what about the kiss carriage for the 9 car bi level sets of course with many changes to the design but if you remove the pantographs and fill in that area add gang ways and knuckle couplers to start . But I think they could be a good design

 

[Septa9739]

They won’t work. They’re MLV’s, so you run into the same set of issues you’d run into with NJT-based equipment. They also wouldn’t comply with ADA, because of the mezzanine steps. The point of those diagrams was to show how ADA could be met on a bilevel, not multilevel trains, I.e with elevators to platform height and a core of ADA compliant space in the middle of the train. It was not to suggest a length. A waiver was granted for that concept. I think it is exceeding unlikely Amtrak would order equipment that doesn’t work like the diagram suggested.

 

[west point]

The retractable extensions appear as meeting one of the problems. Has anyone heard how Brightline's extensions are working? Maybe a question on the Brightline thread?

The taller cars would work on Auto Train , Sunset, and Starlight. Other routes may need clearances improved to plate "H" that would also allow double stacks and all other tall freight cars. A few older station canopies might also need changing. That still leaves the insufficient heights of the ceilings in CHI Union Station.

 

[Deni]

Christian Lenhart, coauthor of the Rio Grande Plan just uploaded a neat video discussing platform heights and how they relate to Amtrak's current and planned rolling stock. He talks about the Superliners and prospective replacements at 6 minutes.

The Superliner commercial he included in there is the best thing ever.

 

[Finn101]

Does anyone have the actual RFP document that was issued by Amtrak? Can't seem to find a copy anywhere.

 

[Paniolo Man]

Does anyone have the actual RFP document that was issued by Amtrak? Can't seem to find a copy anywhere.

Their "2 stage" RFP was intentionally crafted to keep it out of the public eye. The only entities that know specifics are Amtrak, and worthy bidders. We only know that Amtrak is looking to procure a large number of bilevel long-distance cars.

For a better answer, submit a FOIA request, they'll give a long worded rejection with a better explanation.

I do wish there was at least a timeline publicly available. Afaik we don't even know how long manufacturers have to submit bids.

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

Their "2 stage" RFP was intentionally crafted to keep it out of the public eye. The only entities that know specifics are Amtrak, and worthy bidders. We only know that Amtrak is looking to procure a large number of bilevel long-distance cars.

For a better answer, submit a FOIA request, they'll give a long worded rejection with a better explanation.

I do wish there was at least a timeline publicly available. Afaik we don't even know how long manufacturers have to submit bids.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant. These should not have to be OIG investigations. They were initiated in the fall of 2023, not completed:

• Long‐Distance Fleet Replacement Program
• Pre-Award Procurement

And it's not clear the OIG is a cure-all. The report on the Acela Avelias was good, maybe spurred some action.

 

[dlagrua]

It may not be hard to determine who received an RFP as there are not many train manufacturers capable of building Superliner type bi-level equipment. I say its likely going to be Siemens, Stadler, Alstom, or Talgo. Stadler would be my best guess to get the contract as they built the Rocky Mountaineer Cars but who knows Amtrak may choose two suppliers for the volume needed.

 

[Paniolo Man]

Amtrak will certainly take their time procuring LD equipment. I went back and reviewed the history of the Airo order.

Here's a quick recap as I understand it:
June 2018: Amtrak releases RFI for single-level replacement trainsets.
January 2019: Amtrak releases an RFP for trainsets.
April 2021: Siemens is chosen as preferred bidder.
December 2022: Amtrak & Siemens reveal Airo and a formal purchase is announced.

2 years between the RFP and the announcement of a preferred bidder, another year and 8 months before a design was revealed. It is possible that this will move a little faster because of a more transit-friendly political environment, but it may move slower as it will be a much more substantial order. We'll be stuck here speculating about it for a while.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Amtrak will certainly take their time procuring LD equipment. I went back and reviewed the history of the Airo order.

Here's a quick recap as I understand it:
June 2018: Amtrak releases RFI for single-level replacement trainsets.
January 2019: Amtrak releases an RFP for trainsets.
April 2021: Siemens is chosen as preferred bidder.
December 2022: Amtrak & Siemens reveal Airo and a formal purchase is announced.

2 years between the RFP and the announcement of a preferred bidder, another year and 8 months before a design was revealed. It is possible that this will move a little faster because of a more transit-friendly political environment, but it may move slower as it will be a much more substantial order. We'll be stuck here speculating about it for a while.

Things may have been put on hold in 2020 due to a little, cough cough, virus.

 

[Awesometrainz]

Amtrak will certainly take their time procuring LD equipment. I went back and reviewed the history of the Airo order.

Here's a quick recap as I understand it:
June 2018: Amtrak releases RFI for single-level replacement trainsets.
January 2019: Amtrak releases an RFP for trainsets.
April 2021: Siemens is chosen as preferred bidder.
December 2022: Amtrak & Siemens reveal Airo and a formal purchase is announced.

2 years between the RFP and the announcement of a preferred bidder, another year and 8 months before a design was revealed. It is possible that this will move a little faster because of a more transit-friendly political environment, but it may move slower as it will be a much more substantial order. We'll be stuck here speculating about it for a while.

It may not be hard to determine who received an RFP as there are not many train manufacturers capable of building Superliner type bi-level equipment. I say its likely going to be Siemens, Stadler, Alstom, or Talgo. Stadler would be my best guess to get the contract as they built the Rocky Mountaineer Cars but who knows Amtrak may choose two suppliers for the volume needed.

Not talgo they have a little to no experience building coaches suited for long travel and no carriages that would be used with chargers currently in service.