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What was your question and why is it significant to this thread, which concerns the Chatsworth Metrolink accident?

RailCon BuffDaddy
I'm going to reverse myself and allow for this post to go through. Please don't mistake my generosity, as I won't do this again!

My question is, you're all upset over rail safety and this accident in California with Metrolink. Where is your outrage for the carnage on the highways, the Metrolink crash killed less than 0.1% of the number of people killed on our highways? Why aren't you concerned about that?

As for why it is significant, first, simply because I've been very polite and tolerant with you. It's nice to answer others questions when they've been busy answering yours.

Second, it's relevant because I'm trying to understand why you are so fixated on this one accident and don't seem to care a whit about other forms of transportation that kill many more people than trains kill.
I don't think a debate about rail safety is related in any way to safety of other modes. There is a presumption of safety with rail travel that does nor exist with auto travel. If a rail accident occurs, it is an obligation of all parties to find out why it happened and determine ways to prevent it from happening again. The methods of doing that are certainly issues that can be debated. The Metrolink accident was bad, certainly due to the appalling death toll, but also due to how it happened. For me, it was chilling. The weaknesses in rail safety exposed by the accident have to be fixed, one way or another. The fact that about 100 are killed each day in motor vehicle accidents is irrelevant to the discussion of how to prevent another Metrolink-type accident.
 
I'm going to reverse myself and allow for this post to go through. Please don't mistake my generosity, as I won't do this again!
Am I correct in assuming you will post my response?

My question is, you're all upset over rail safety and this accident in California with Metrolink. Where is your outrage for the carnage on the highways, the Metrolink crash killed less than 0.1% of the number of people killed on our highways? Why aren't you concerned about that?
Who says I'm not concerned? Is this thread the place to talk about it? Wouldn't you ban it for being irrelevant?

As for why it is significant, first, simply because I've been very polite and tolerant with you. It's nice to answer others questions when they've been busy answering yours.
Maybe it's only due to the limited number of "volunteer" moderators you have, but my posts seem to be delayed unduly, and, typically, are promptly buried by responses, some overly verbose, some misleading, some insulting, and most curiously, nearly ALL antagonistic to some degree. In my view, the only post which even ATTEMPTED to answer the questions in my original post was #424 by George Harris, to whom I responded in #425. I have no interest in irrelevancies, rabbit holes or ad hominem attacks. I have seen some of my questions asked by others on other forums, and they are often subjected to the same tactics.

Second, it's relevant because I'm trying to understand why you are so fixated on this one accident and don't seem to care a whit about other forms of transportation that kill many more people than trains kill.
Your conclusion is unwarranted. If a local street signal was malfunctioning or worse, let's say it showed yellow over yellow and everyone had a slightly different understanding of what it meant, I would surely try and find the right people to complain to. If our local police could not communicate with the fire department, I would surely want to know WHY they couldn't use a cell phone. I have tried to provide quotes and references for my posts to the best of my ability and bandwidth. If this forum is indeed what you present it to be, you might admonish the poster who asked me "what are you, a 13-year old?" Even if I were, so what? Is it OK if I were to ask that poster "what are you, an Amtrac/PTC lobbyist/union buster"?

RailCon BuffDaddy
 
What was your question and why is it significant to this thread, which concerns the Chatsworth Metrolink accident?

RailCon BuffDaddy
I'm going to reverse myself and allow for this post to go through. Please don't mistake my generosity, as I won't do this again!

My question is, you're all upset over rail safety and this accident in California with Metrolink. Where is your outrage for the carnage on the highways, the Metrolink crash killed less than 0.1% of the number of people killed on our highways? Why aren't you concerned about that?

As for why it is significant, first, simply because I've been very polite and tolerant with you. It's nice to answer others questions when they've been busy answering yours.

Second, it's relevant because I'm trying to understand why you are so fixated on this one accident and don't seem to care a whit about other forms of transportation that kill many more people than trains kill.
I don't think a debate about rail safety is related in any way to safety of other modes. There is a presumption of safety with rail travel that does nor exist with auto travel. If a rail accident occurs, it is an obligation of all parties to find out why it happened and determine ways to prevent it from happening again. The methods of doing that are certainly issues that can be debated. The Metrolink accident was bad, certainly due to the appalling death toll, but also due to how it happened. For me, it was chilling. The weaknesses in rail safety exposed by the accident have to be fixed, one way or another. The fact that about 100 are killed each day in motor vehicle accidents is irrelevant to the discussion of how to prevent another Metrolink-type accident.
The problem here is that this is no longer a debate about rail safety; this has become a debate about how rail is terrible and kills lots of people and shouldn't transport nuclear waste, etc. And therefore I'm interested to hear what his views are regarding the carnage on the highways, since he only seems concerned with killing rail because of a couple of accidents. He only seems concerned with reducing speed limits for trains because of a couple of accidents.

And even if one doesn't agree with all of that, it was still a polite and reasonable request from someone who has been more than fair in answering questions from the OP, when many members have already asked me to simply shut things down.
 
The issue of accident prevention is one of risk mitigation. Clearly all accidents cannot be prevented. Beyond a certain point the net damage prevented turns out to be worth way less than the effort it takes to get there. A rational discussion should be about what is the right threshold. Unfortunately emotions get in the way of such a determination.

The glaring thing about the Metrolink accident was the realization (again) that people placed in positions of responsibility do not necessarily take their jobs seriously enough. But even in cases where they apparently took their jobs quite seriously and made a wrong decision, do lead to accidents. Witness the AF 447 crash in the Atlantic. So this is potentially a very serious issue to discuss. But unfortunately that is not what has been going on here.
 
Do we have the technology to make PTC such that it enforces the signal BEFORE you get to it?
How about what I said in post #552? - "Obviously, the "magic" sensor could have and SHOULD have been farther back." This might be more economical, and is already the case in some places. I'll bet all you "railroad enthusiasts" even know where. The Amtrak/PTC lobbyists/union busters among you might have to look it up...
Your ignorance and arrogance are both breathtaking :help:
The "magic sensor" has no magic to it at all. It is simply the track circuit. I think it would be wasting my fingers to try even the most basic of explanations.

The limit of a track circuit is set by the presence of an insulated joint in the rails, which is usually located at or slightly in advance of a signal. (Yes, I know that there are now coded track circuits that make insulated joints unnecessary except to prevent dirct short circuits in turnouts and a few other place, but I am not signal engineer and really do not know how to explain it. I let the signal guys tell me where they want the IJ's and then tell them they should not be dead opposite each other.

The track circuit did not fall off the turnip truck yesterday. The original form was invented in 18 something or other, I think 1880 something. That is why for many years semaphores were used. These things were first used before light bulbs were common, if not before they were invented. An oil lamp would not be bright enough to be seen it the daytime.

There have been many improvements since, but the basics of having a small electric current in the rails with the wheels completing the circuit to announce the presence of a train has been around for well over 100 years.

I am sure that the next hit will be something to the effect of why we are still using obsolete technology or some such. Announcement: old does not equal obsolete.
George - I like your one-line answers better. If you prefer, let's call my "magic sensor" your "track circuit". My point is that they, AND the signal can be st back from the switch - and in some places they are, by 220 yards. This allows a margin of error in that the indication of a track violation comes AHEAD of the actual violation. In the case of Chatsworth and Kismet, there was NO margin of error, with disasters of varying degree the result. My post was in response to the question jis asked about enforcing PTC enforcing the signal before you get to it, btw. Having seen the glossy PTC sales clip, with GPS and satellites and computer banks and who knows what else, I can offer my considered opinion that it will make a fortunate few very wealthy, BUT IT WON'T WORK.
 
I'm going to reverse myself and allow for this post to go through. Please don't mistake my generosity, as I won't do this again!
Am I correct in assuming you will post my response?
I asked the question, and while I think that the response was weak, of course I'm going to let your post go through.

My question is, you're all upset over rail safety and this accident in California with Metrolink. Where is your outrage for the carnage on the highways, the Metrolink crash killed less than 0.1% of the number of people killed on our highways? Why aren't you concerned about that?
Who says I'm not concerned? Is this thread the place to talk about it? Wouldn't you ban it for being irrelevant?
No one says that you're not concerned, but you seem to be devoting an unusual amount of time, effort, and energy towards bad mouthing rail for reasons that still remain unclear. No ones ignores mounds of evidence from an impartial agency whose only job is to determine what went wrong without an agenda. So again, I was curious if you devote this much time and effort to getting speed limits lowered on our highways so as to save lives there as you've spent trying to put trains down.

As for why it is significant, first, simply because I've been very polite and tolerant with you. It's nice to answer others questions when they've been busy answering yours.
Maybe it's only due to the limited number of "volunteer" moderators you have, but my posts seem to be delayed unduly, and, typically, are promptly buried by responses, some overly verbose, some misleading, some insulting, and most curiously, nearly ALL antagonistic to some degree. In my view, the only post which even ATTEMPTED to answer the questions in my original post was #424 by George Harris, to whom I responded in #425. I have no interest in irrelevancies, rabbit holes or ad hominem attacks. I have seen some of my questions asked by others on other forums, and they are often subjected to the same tactics.
Well again, a few of the staff have already suggested (along with several members) that we cut you off. So much of the burden for approving your posts has fallen to me, and as I've noted more than once, I've been out riding trains from one coast to the other, as well as leading our annual get together for our members in Seattle. That said, you're posts are only sitting perhaps a bit longer than normal. Again, there are only 6 staff members here who aren't on all the time, and 3 of those staffers were at our event.

As for the content of posts, we allow considerable latitude here, especially compared to other forums. In fact, on some forums, you'd have been shut down after your second or third post. And you wouldn't even be allowed to post as a guest, we're one of the few forums that allows that. And when you come here posting wild & unsupported accusations, then pile on top of that a clear lack of understanding of how RR's work, I'm not exactly surprised that some treat you with disdain.

Second, it's relevant because I'm trying to understand why you are so fixated on this one accident and don't seem to care a whit about other forms of transportation that kill many more people than trains kill.
Your conclusion is unwarranted. If a local street signal was malfunctioning or worse, let's say it showed yellow over yellow and everyone had a slightly different understanding of what it meant, I would surely try and find the right people to complain to. If our local police could not communicate with the fire department, I would surely want to know WHY they couldn't use a cell phone. I have tried to provide quotes and references for my posts to the best of my ability and bandwidth. If this forum is indeed what you present it to be, you might admonish the poster who asked me "what are you, a 13-year old?" Even if I were, so what? Is it OK if I were to ask that poster "what are you, an Amtrac/PTC lobbyist/union buster"?

RailCon BuffDaddy
Let's see, to some people a yellow traffic light means accelerate so as to beat the light. To others it means slow down and get ready to stop at the light. Are you complaining about that? Are you trying to educate people about that?

Or if the speed limit is 65 MPH, why do some think that means that they can go 75 MPH or even 80 MPH? Are you doing anything about that?

As for the cell phone bit, train engineers have radios and everyone operating on a segment of track uses the same frequency. So if there is a need to communicate beyond the instructions provided by the signals, engineers can do so, as well as conductors. And of course in an emergency situation, they could use their cell phones to call for emergency assistance, assuming that they actually have a cell phone signal. Which is quite probably one of the biggest reasons that engineers don't use cell phones for communications, since there are still many places in this country were trains operate and do not have cell phone service.

I just rode the Empire Builder between Seattle & Chicago, which runs just south of the Canadian border for much of the run. I only had cell service for about 2/3rds of the time I was on that train. That other 1/3rd of the time I couldn't have made a phone call if my life depended on it. And this, along with other evidence cited earlier is why engineers do NOT use cell phones to communicate with either other trains or the dispatchers. They use their radios, because every RR has repeaters installed along the tracks to ensure radio communications are possible.
 
Please review my original list of questions at post #423, which concern rail safety and scapegoating in the Chatsworth accident. I have been trying to keep my responses brief and to the point, and ask others to do likewise.

RailCon BuffDaddy
 
Do we have the technology to make PTC such that it enforces the signal BEFORE you get to it?
How about what I said in post #552? - "Obviously, the "magic" sensor could have and SHOULD have been farther back." This might be more economical, and is already the case in some places. I'll bet all you "railroad enthusiasts" even know where. The Amtrak/PTC lobbyists/union busters among you might have to look it up...
Your ignorance and arrogance are both breathtaking :help:
The "magic sensor" has no magic to it at all. It is simply the track circuit. I think it would be wasting my fingers to try even the most basic of explanations.

The limit of a track circuit is set by the presence of an insulated joint in the rails, which is usually located at or slightly in advance of a signal. (Yes, I know that there are now coded track circuits that make insulated joints unnecessary except to prevent dirct short circuits in turnouts and a few other place, but I am not signal engineer and really do not know how to explain it. I let the signal guys tell me where they want the IJ's and then tell them they should not be dead opposite each other.

The track circuit did not fall off the turnip truck yesterday. The original form was invented in 18 something or other, I think 1880 something. That is why for many years semaphores were used. These things were first used before light bulbs were common, if not before they were invented. An oil lamp would not be bright enough to be seen it the daytime.

There have been many improvements since, but the basics of having a small electric current in the rails with the wheels completing the circuit to announce the presence of a train has been around for well over 100 years.

I am sure that the next hit will be something to the effect of why we are still using obsolete technology or some such. Announcement: old does not equal obsolete.
George - I like your one-line answers better. If you prefer, let's call my "magic sensor" your "track circuit". My point is that they, AND the signal can be st back from the switch - and in some places they are, by 220 yards. This allows a margin of error in that the indication of a track violation comes AHEAD of the actual violation. In the case of Chatsworth and Kismet, there was NO margin of error, with disasters of varying degree the result. My post was in response to the question jis asked about enforcing PTC enforcing the signal before you get to it, btw. Having seen the glossy PTC sales clip, with GPS and satellites and computer banks and who knows what else, I can offer my considered opinion that it will make a fortunate few very wealthy, BUT IT WON'T WORK.
Gee, that's funny seeing as how PTC already works on the Northeast corridor and in Michigan, not to mention in many other countries around the world.

Yet you're so sure it won't work.
 
Suffice it to say that PTC does not imply GPS etc. That is one implementation. And also use of GPS does not imply not using track circuit where it already exists. These systems are meant to be overlays on existing systems. The currently working PTC on the NEC is track circuit based and is an overlay on the existing PRR cab signal system. There are PTC equivalent installations elsewhere in the world that are GPS and radio based and they work fine. Incidentally NEC does have a radio link which is used only for non-critical messages. Critical messages are all transmitted via coded track circuit or static transponders.

The assertion that "it won;t work" is just an uninformed opinion, and of course everyone is entitled to at least one :)
 
I'm going to reverse myself and allow for this post to go through. Please don't mistake my generosity, as I won't do this again!
Am I correct in assuming you will post my response?
I asked the question, and while I think that the response was weak, of course I'm going to let your post go through.

My question is, you're all upset over rail safety and this accident in California with Metrolink. Where is your outrage for the carnage on the highways, the Metrolink crash killed less than 0.1% of the number of people killed on our highways? Why aren't you concerned about that?
Who says I'm not concerned? Is this thread the place to talk about it? Wouldn't you ban it for being irrelevant?
No one says that you're not concerned, but you seem to be devoting an unusual amount of time, effort, and energy towards bad mouthing rail for reasons that still remain unclear. No ones ignores mounds of evidence from an impartial agency whose only job is to determine what went wrong without an agenda. So again, I was curious if you devote this much time and effort to getting speed limits lowered on our highways so as to save lives there as you've spent trying to put trains down.

As for why it is significant, first, simply because I've been very polite and tolerant with you. It's nice to answer others questions when they've been busy answering yours.
Maybe it's only due to the limited number of "volunteer" moderators you have, but my posts seem to be delayed unduly, and, typically, are promptly buried by responses, some overly verbose, some misleading, some insulting, and most curiously, nearly ALL antagonistic to some degree. In my view, the only post which even ATTEMPTED to answer the questions in my original post was #424 by George Harris, to whom I responded in #425. I have no interest in irrelevancies, rabbit holes or ad hominem attacks. I have seen some of my questions asked by others on other forums, and they are often subjected to the same tactics.
Well again, a few of the staff have already suggested (along with several members) that we cut you off. So much of the burden for approving your posts has fallen to me, and as I've noted more than once, I've been out riding trains from one coast to the other, as well as leading our annual get together for our members in Seattle. That said, you're posts are only sitting perhaps a bit longer than normal. Again, there are only 6 staff members here who aren't on all the time, and 3 of those staffers were at our event.

As for the content of posts, we allow considerable latitude here, especially compared to other forums. In fact, on some forums, you'd have been shut down after your second or third post. And you wouldn't even be allowed to post as a guest, we're one of the few forums that allows that. And when you come here posting wild & unsupported accusations, then pile on top of that a clear lack of understanding of how RR's work, I'm not exactly surprised that some treat you with disdain.

Second, it's relevant because I'm trying to understand why you are so fixated on this one accident and don't seem to care a whit about other forms of transportation that kill many more people than trains kill.
Your conclusion is unwarranted. If a local street signal was malfunctioning or worse, let's say it showed yellow over yellow and everyone had a slightly different understanding of what it meant, I would surely try and find the right people to complain to. If our local police could not communicate with the fire department, I would surely want to know WHY they couldn't use a cell phone. I have tried to provide quotes and references for my posts to the best of my ability and bandwidth. If this forum is indeed what you present it to be, you might admonish the poster who asked me "what are you, a 13-year old?" Even if I were, so what? Is it OK if I were to ask that poster "what are you, an Amtrac/PTC lobbyist/union buster"?

RailCon BuffDaddy
Let's see, to some people a yellow traffic light means accelerate so as to beat the light. To others it means slow down and get ready to stop at the light. Are you complaining about that? Are you trying to educate people about that?

Or if the speed limit is 65 MPH, why do some think that means that they can go 75 MPH or even 80 MPH? Are you doing anything about that?

As for the cell phone bit, train engineers have radios and everyone operating on a segment of track uses the same frequency. So if there is a need to communicate beyond the instructions provided by the signals, engineers can do so, as well as conductors. And of course in an emergency situation, they could use their cell phones to call for emergency assistance, assuming that they actually have a cell phone signal. Which is quite probably one of the biggest reasons that engineers don't use cell phones for communications, since there are still many places in this country were trains operate and do not have cell phone service.

I just rode the Empire Builder between Seattle & Chicago, which runs just south of the Canadian border for much of the run. I only had cell service for about 2/3rds of the time I was on that train. That other 1/3rd of the time I couldn't have made a phone call if my life depended on it. And this, along with other evidence cited earlier is why engineers do NOT use cell phones to communicate with either other trains or the dispatchers. They use their radios, because every RR has repeaters installed along the tracks to ensure radio communications are possible.
If you will indulge me by not demanding I answer every question in every sentence above, let's focus on the Chatsworth accident and the role of cell phones. I don't know who the Leesdale Local freight conductor was texting at 4:20 PM, but I surely believe an "impartial" NTSB investigation would DEMAND Verizon provide that info and INCLUDE it in their report. I want to know WHY the freight had THREE warm bodies in the cab while Metrolink had ONE. I want to know WHY we need PTC when Metrolink dosen't even have front-facing cameras. I want to see the UNEDITED freight camera video from the intermediate signal before CP Topanga onward. I want to know WHY the NTSB cropped the photo of CP Topanga.

I want to know what kind of pressure is exerted on train crews to keep quiet about the daily hazards they confront, and how they try to survive.

RailCon BuffDaddy
 
Suffice it to say that PTC does not imply GPS etc. That is one implementation. And also use of GPS does not imply not using track circuit where it already exists. These systems are meant to be overlays on existing systems. The currently working PTC on the NEC is track circuit based and is an overlay on the existing PRR cab signal system. There are PTC equivalent installations elsewhere in the world that are GPS and radio based and they work fine. Incidentally NEC does have a radio link which is used only for non-critical messages. Critical messages are all transmitted via coded track circuit or static transponders.

The assertion that "it won;t work" is just an uninformed opinion, and of course everyone is entitled to at least one :)
If "PTC" is really just a marketing gimmick to get money to improve rail safety, I hope it is money spent wisely. I hope the scapegoating of the Metrolink engineer is acknowledged in time to bring comfort to his family. I hope our future is not unmanned 90 mph freights full of nuclear waste sharing one track with unmanned 120 mph commuters, depending on a "Star Wars" conglomeration of highly complex technology given to unpredictable failure...

RailCon BuffDaddy
 
If you will indulge me . . . . I want to know WHY the NTSB cropped the photo of CP Topanga.
RailCon: This and everything else you have asked has been explained ad nauseum. My elementary school grandchildren have a better understanding of this stuff than you do.

Alan: Count me as having joined the "I've had it" crowd.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
If you will indulge me by not demanding I answer every question in every sentence above, let's focus on the Chatsworth accident and the role of cell phones.
Well it would be nice to know that you plan on working to educate people about the real meaning of yellow in a traffic light just as hard as you seem to be going after the RR's here.

I don't know who the Leesdale Local freight conductor was texting at 4:20 PM, but I surely believe an "impartial" NTSB investigation would DEMAND Verizon provide that info and INCLUDE it in their report.
Who cares? It's not relevant to the accident, even if he was texting. And I can't say as I recall that, but again I remind you that I'm still on my way home running through NY State as I write this, so I can't download the entire report.

But, for the record, the conductor isn't operating the locomotive. So his texting would have no impact on things. Second, the freight train did nothing wrong; they were operating according to the rules of the road and signal indication. Finally, there were two other sets of eyes on the road, even if indeed the conductor's eyes were elsewhere.

Conclusion, his texting had nothing to do with the accident.

I want to know WHY the freight had THREE warm bodies in the cab while Metrolink had ONE.
The freight normally would have had two warm bodies in the cab; that would be SOP (Standard Operating Procedure). The third, and this is speculation on my part, could have been there because he was deadheading or because he was doing some sort of inspection/qualifying one of the other crew members on that route or re-certifying one of the crew members to operate on some segment of track that the freight train was running on that day. And there are probably a few other possibilities that I'm not thinking of at the moment. However, it changes nothing!

As for why the Metrolink train only has one, that comes down to cost and some of the public that doesn't wish to subsidize trains, even as they drive their cars on the subsidized roads.

I want to know WHY we need PTC when Metrolink dosen't even have front-facing cameras.
Because PTC would stop a train in this situation and save lives; a forward facing camera would only show why people were killed. I'd rather keep people from being killed than watch their demise.

I want to see the UNEDITED freight camera video from the intermediate signal before CP Topanga onward.
Is there even video from the freight engine? And what proof do you have that it was edited, if indeed it exists? And what proof do you have that something critical was edited out?

I want to know WHY the NTSB cropped the photo of CP Topanga.
Perhaps because it made it fit into the report better and/or perhaps because it is irrelevant and would probably confuse some who don't understand RR's and signals. The photo is simply there to provide a frame of reference to what the signal looks like and where it is located. It's not a photo of the signal aspects at the time of the accident. The photo was taken after testing and after the Metrolink train had run through the signal. So even if the signal had been green, as reported by some, once the train went by that signal it would have turned red. So any subsequent photo would still show two red signals.

Just as an FYI in case you don't know, "aspects" is RR speak for was the signal clear, at danger, or some other condition.

I want to know what kind of pressure is exerted on train crews to keep quiet about the daily hazards they confront, and how they try to survive.
While there may be some pressure, the Whistle Blower rules allow for any employee to report things anonymously. And these days the engines all carry black boxes and such that can't be tampered with. This in stark contrast to trucks where pressure commonly leads to falsified paper records.
 
Suffice it to say that PTC does not imply GPS etc. That is one implementation. And also use of GPS does not imply not using track circuit where it already exists. These systems are meant to be overlays on existing systems. The currently working PTC on the NEC is track circuit based and is an overlay on the existing PRR cab signal system. There are PTC equivalent installations elsewhere in the world that are GPS and radio based and they work fine. Incidentally NEC does have a radio link which is used only for non-critical messages. Critical messages are all transmitted via coded track circuit or static transponders.

The assertion that "it won't work" is just an uninformed opinion, and of course everyone is entitled to at least one :)
If "PTC" is really just a marketing gimmick to get money to improve rail safety, I hope it is money spent wisely.
PTC is not marketing gimmick. It actually works, whether you like to believe it or not.

I hope the scapegoating of the Metrolink engineer is acknowledged in time to bring comfort to his family.
As I said everyone is entitled to an opinion. But its connection to reality is not necessarily always established. ;)

I hope our future is not unmanned 90 mph freights full of nuclear waste sharing one track with unmanned 120 mph commuters, depending on a "Star Wars" conglomeration of highly complex technology given to unpredictable failure...
No one is planning 90mph freights unmanned or otherwise. As for commuters, already 125 mph ones and 110mph ones already exist and do share tracks with freight and have so far a perfect safety record on the higher speed tracks. They have less than perfect safety record only on lower speed tracks that are not equipped with PTC. And none of them are unmanned. Only those toy airport people movers are unmanned, which travel so slowly that they'd hardly get a dent if they crashed. :)

So let's please get off the hyperbole shall we? As a matter of fact most of the new PTC being installed won't even be capable of dealing with 90 mph trains in the first place, notwithstanding all the drooling that is going on among passenger railfans. Only purpose built PTC for higher speed operations, which BTW costs much more, will be capable of such, like ACSES on the NEC.
 
Since RailCon, for whatever reason, seems fixated (among other things) on the "multiple interpretations" (where? Who on the railroad...not on this list...but on the actual railroad operating actual trains has conflicting interpretations of what Yellow over Yellow meant to the freight train as it approached CP Topanga?), perhaps this will be useful.

Directly from the special instructions of the Metrolink Timetable.

Aspect: Yellow over yellow (or yellow over yellow over red, depending on the signal)

Name: Approach Diverging

Indication: Proceed prepared to advance on diverging route at next signal not exceeding prescribed speed through turnout(s).

That is absolutely the only valid interpretation of the yellow over yellow signal on Metrolink rail (out east, yellow over yellow has a different meaning, but that would not apply here). There is no debate over this fact. No engineer can be qualified on the territory without learning every signal which may apply to his/her train on that territory. Further, no engineer can be qualified on the territory without knowing the speeds at every location, including turnout speeds.

Therefore, if the engineer of a UP freight train heading east toward CP Topanga sees Yellow over Yellow at the advance signal, he knows that he will be taking the diverging route into the siding at the next signal, and he knows what speed he will need to operate his train when he reaches CP Topanga.

This is not subject to debate or individual interpretation.
 
(out east, yellow over yellow has a different meaning, but that would not apply here).
I find this fascinating, amazing and scary. From posts I've read elsewhere, the meaning might change as a result of a merger as well. And sometimes engineers relocate, I suppose. I, for one, am really, really happy with street signal uniformity among states. And I'm speculating now, but I'll bet rail crews would vote for that, too, if there were no reprisals (regardless of any qualification procedure).

Perhaps you could tell me when, if and how these signals would tell the freight crew that a Metrolink was on one of the tracks past the switch at CP Topanga. Did yellow over yellow mean that Metrolink was on the main track? What colors would the same signal show if Metrolink was on the siding?

RailCon BuffDaddy
 
(out east, yellow over yellow has a different meaning, but that would not apply here).
I find this fascinating, amazing and scary. From posts I've read elsewhere, the meaning might change as a result of a merger as well. And sometimes engineers relocate, I suppose. I, for one, am really, really happy with street signal uniformity among states. And I'm speculating now, but I'll bet rail crews would vote for that, too, if there were no reprisals (regardless of any qualification procedure).
Qualifying doesn't mean taking a simple test. It means making multiple runs over the trackage you're trying to qualify on with another qualified engineer or a supervisor. When you know every signal, grade crossing, curve, speed limit change, etc. a supervisor then rides with you and you must prove yourself to that supervisor before you are considered qualified to operate a train without supervision.

So someone moving across country and transferring jobs, doesn't just pack up, move, and start work the very next day as a qualified engineer on that new trackage.

Perhaps you could tell me when, if and how these signals would tell the freight crew that a Metrolink was on one of the tracks past the switch at CP Topanga. Did yellow over yellow mean that Metrolink was on the main track? What colors would the same signal show if Metrolink was on the siding?
RailCon BuffDaddy
I'm not an expert on this, but that yellow over yellow told the freight crew that they would be changing tracks to the siding. And that was all the information that they needed to have. Yes, they probably could have guessed that a Metrolink train was on the main track waiting for them, and certainly they could have assumed that they were changing tracks because some train was in the way. But again, they don't need to know what train is there. They only need to know that they have to slow down and take the siding.

Not sure about your second question.
 
(out east, yellow over yellow has a different meaning, but that would not apply here).
I find this fascinating, amazing and scary. From posts I've read elsewhere, the meaning might change as a result of a merger as well. And sometimes engineers relocate, I suppose. I, for one, am really, really happy with street signal uniformity among states. And I'm speculating now, but I'll bet rail crews would vote for that, too, if there were no reprisals (regardless of any qualification procedure).
Regardless of your opinion, it's part of being qualified on the territory. It was also completely irrelevant to the accident in this discussion.

Perhaps you could tell me when, if and how these signals would tell the freight crew that a Metrolink was on one of the tracks past the switch at CP Topanga. Did yellow over yellow mean that Metrolink was on the main track? What colors would the same signal show if Metrolink was on the siding?
RailCon BuffDaddy
I've already mentioned on this thread, signals do not tell you what other trains are doing. They tell you what your train is supposed to do. Why is this so difficult to understand?

The only thing the freight train crew should be concerned with is that they pass CP Topanga at the prescribed speed for the turnout, meaning that the switch is lined for them to take the diverging route. It doesn't matter one bit what the reason for that is. There could be a train on the other track, the track could be out of service for maintenance, there could be some other issue making routing on the main track unfeasible, or the dispatcher could just route them that way for the hell of it (not likely, but still in the universe of possibilities). Whether or not a train is on the main doesn't matter, because the freight train isn't going that way.
 
I'm not an expert on this, but that yellow over yellow told the freight crew that they would be changing tracks to the siding. And that was all the information that they needed to have. Yes, they probably could have guessed that a Metrolink train was on the main track waiting for them, and certainly they could have assumed that they were changing tracks because some train was in the way. But again, they don't need to know what train is there. They only need to know that they have to slow down and take the siding.
Not sure about your second question.
Faith-based railroading? - concern and fear level rising... rising...

RailCon BuffDaddy
 
I'm not an expert on this, but that yellow over yellow told the freight crew that they would be changing tracks to the siding. And that was all the information that they needed to have. Yes, they probably could have guessed that a Metrolink train was on the main track waiting for them, and certainly they could have assumed that they were changing tracks because some train was in the way. But again, they don't need to know what train is there. They only need to know that they have to slow down and take the siding.
Not sure about your second question.
Faith-based railroading? - concern and fear level rising... rising...

RailCon BuffDaddy
Gee, just like driving. You have to have faith that the other driver is going to stop at that red light or that stop sign. You have to have faith that the other driver will signal and not cut you off.

And once again, we kill many more people driving that ever die in train wrecks, so if I have to depend on faith, I'm going to depend on the railroad. They have a far, far better record than do drivers! In fact, I'm far less concerned and far less worried sitting here on the Lake Shore Limited going home to NY than I will be tomorrow when I get in my car to go visit a client.

Your faith is misplaced! Sorry!
 
I'm not an expert on this, but that yellow over yellow told the freight crew that they would be changing tracks to the siding. And that was all the information that they needed to have. Yes, they probably could have guessed that a Metrolink train was on the main track waiting for them, and certainly they could have assumed that they were changing tracks because some train was in the way. But again, they don't need to know what train is there. They only need to know that they have to slow down and take the siding.
Not sure about your second question.
Faith-based railroading? - concern and fear level rising... rising...
I think you should consider locking yourself in your room and never leaving it, since if you do you will need to rely on others around you behaving rationally and according to rules. :) Now one couldn't possibly depend on others to do anything right, can one? ;)
 
Why is it faith-based? Faith that the other train won't run its signals just like driving as Alan said? Or faith that there isn't another train on the track you're being routed into? If the latter, then the very design of the signaling system won't give you a favorable signal if there's a train blocking your path.
 
Why is it faith-based? Faith that the other train won't run its signals just like driving as Alan said? Or faith that there isn't another train on the track you're being routed into? If the latter, then the very design of the signaling system won't give you a favorable signal if there's a train blocking your path.
The faith involved here is that an engineer will not run a red signal. That appears to be a fundamental assumption behind the design of non positive train control systems. Now if it is inconvenient to deal with that assumption because you absolutely positively want to exonerate an engineer who clearly took actions to toss that assumption out the window then you do have to invoke, faith, pixie-dust and whatever else pleases you to make a case. :cool:
 
Aloha

Not being considered, that MetroLink train met that freight train in the Chatsworth Station 5 days per week. The Engineer on the MetroLink train that fatal day met the freight train 4 days a week, so why did he leave the station in the first place, without serious question. His signal should not have shown clear, the Conductor should not have given a clear to proceed.
 
Aloha

Not being considered, that MetroLink train met that freight train in the Chatsworth Station 5 days per week. The Engineer on the MetroLink train that fatal day met the freight train 4 days a week, so why did he leave the station in the first place, without serious question. His signal should not have shown clear, the Conductor should not have given a clear to proceed.
Conductors do not give unconditional clear to proceed. What they are supposed to say is something like "OK to proceed on signal indication". It is upto the engineer to ensure that signal indication allows him/her to proceed past the signal. The signal is not at the station but a little ways down the track, though visible from many parts of the station. This condition allowed the engineer to legitimately pull out of the station and proceed at restricted speed upto the signal since he did not have a clear. Effectively it was a DIB situation if the signal were not visible at all. Since it was visible and red, it was the engineer's choice to either sit at the station or move upto the signal and stop. So there is no fault of the conductor involved AFAICT.
 
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