Proposals for Restored Gulf Coast Service

[west point]

Hi,

Re-establishing Amtrak service east of New Orleans just hit a roadblock named Hunter Harrison. Many people, including Govenors, Senators, and the Southern Rail Commission, need to remind CSX that they wouldn't have a railroad east of New Orleans without significant taxpayer funds to rebuild their railroad after Katrina. Mr. Harrison and his negotiators have apparently forgot this important financial fact. Here's an article from a few days ago.

http://atmorenews.com/2017/06/14/amtrak-returning-not-so-fast/

Well maybe they can take the track in payment ? Hard headiness takes hard headiness.

 

[A Voice]

Two things stick out from the article. First, the obvious, that CSX's position "is simply a negotiating tool" and, second, that prior to this setback there were real plans to have train service restored this year - in 2017.

If there is sufficient political will (pressure) for this to happen, CSX will not remain so intransigent.

 

[DSS&A]

Two things stick out from the article. First, the obvious, that CSX's position "is simply a negotiating tool" and, second, that prior to this setback there were real plans to have train service restored this year - in 2017.

If there is sufficient political will (pressure) for this to happen, CSX will not remain so intransigent.

 

[DSS&A]

Hi,

I also noted those two items in the article. That is why I mentioned it would be a good negotiating item to mention that without taxpayer money after Katrina, CSX would not have this section of track anymore.

I would think that Amtrak CEO's experience will be very helpful as discussions continue. The next few meetings should be interesting...

 

[Thirdrail7]

Hi,

Re-establishing Amtrak service east of New Orleans just hit a roadblock named Hunter Harrison. Many people, including Govenors, Senators, and the Southern Rail Commission, need to remind CSX that they wouldn't have a railroad east of New Orleans without significant taxpayer funds to rebuild their railroad after Katrina. Mr. Harrison and his negotiators have apparently forgot this important financial fact. Here's an article from a few days ago.

http://atmorenews.com/2017/06/14/amtrak-returning-not-so-fast

It would take serious political will and pressure to make this happen. The southern states seem to lack both of them. They should take a page from Virginia. Negotiate in good faith or we'll eyeball your operation into a standstill...and prepare to take it if necessary.

"We were down to a little less than $800 million when the Federal Railroad Administration thought the number should be $117 million to get us back up and going,” Gehman said. “There was still a distance, but CSX has since undergone an ownership change. Hunter Harrison took over, and he is not amenable to our interests. Their position was fixed and firm. They said we should go back to the original estimate of $2.3 billion, that they would have no further negotiations, and they walked out of the meeting.”

Well isn't that special.

Perhaps we should send in the experts from this board that wonder why there isn't a separate West Palm Beach special to negotiate with CSX. I'm sure they'll make headway.

 

[west point]

Sanford station was destroyed by a hurricane that was listed as a station stop for restored service. We still have the problem what train)s are you going to rob the equipment ? You need more equipment either rebuilt wrecks or new !.

 

[A Voice]

Sanford station was destroyed by a hurricane that was listed as a station stop for restored service. We still have the problem what train)s are you going to rob the equipment ? You need more equipment either rebuilt wrecks or new !.

Amtrak has previously stated it has the equipment for a City of New Orleans extension to Orlando.

 

[Anderson]

(1) I thought the ICC was abolished long ago?
(2) So, a practical question: Since NOL-ORL is only "suspended", what would the result be if the plan became to extend the CONO three days a week (in line with the old schedule)? I do not like that, but technically there's a (suspended due to track damage) 3x weekly train on those tracks...so I do have to sincerely ask if Amtrak couldn't just say "Well, I guess negotiations broke down...so we're going to be running the old 3x weekly schedule starting on Day X." The Sunset East did connect to the CONO and while the layover would be awkward I see no reason that the old Sunset East timetable couldn't just be slapped back into use (especially since the layover would be longer this time). Don't get me wrong, I like a daily train and I'd like to see a more efficient schedule, but in this specific case I think CSX has (albeit due to a management dispute) basically acted in bad faith.

Again, I've always been under the impression that Amtrak has had the ability to restore the Sunset East with relative ease and that if CSX refused to let them back on they probably wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on (else what's been the point of the fig leaf line on the map all these years)...the reluctance to restore the train was always Amtrak's reluctance, after all.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Not true, because CSX would argue that a 12 year suspension due to track conditions is de facto a service discontinuation, and any first year bar member could deliver that with adequate conviction.

 

[A Voice]

(1) I thought the ICC was abolished long ago?

(2) So, a practical question: Since NOL-ORL is only "suspended", what would the result be if the plan became to extend the CONO three days a week (in line with the old schedule)? I do not like that, but technically there's a (suspended due to track damage) 3x weekly train on those tracks...so I do have to sincerely ask if Amtrak couldn't just say "Well, I guess negotiations broke down...so we're going to be running the old 3x weekly schedule starting on Day X." The Sunset East did connect to the CONO and while the layover would be awkward I see no reason that the old Sunset East timetable couldn't just be slapped back into use (especially since the layover would be longer this time). Don't get me wrong, I like a daily train and I'd like to see a more efficient schedule, but in this specific case I think CSX has (albeit due to a management dispute) basically acted in bad faith.

Again, I've always been under the impression that Amtrak has had the ability to restore the Sunset East with relative ease and that if CSX refused to let them back on they probably wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on (else what's been the point of the fig leaf line on the map all these years)...the reluctance to restore the train was always Amtrak's reluctance, after all.

Not true, because CSX would argue that a 12 year suspension due to track conditions is de facto a service discontinuation, and any first year bar member could deliver that with adequate conviction.

It is in neither Amtrak's nor CSX's best interest for disputes such as this to be settled in a court of law or by regulatory edict, that much is certain (potentially, they have too much to lose).

 

[west point]

Amtrak has previously stated it has the equipment for a City of New Orleans extension to Orlando

That statement may have been made but by whom ? Boardman ? If Amtrak takes equipment for this extension we need to look at possible consequences. Face it the present equipment has some age. It is going to take more shop time to keep them in top condition. If the equipment does not get proper care there will be more complaints that such and such car is crummy. Those statements are already prevalent on many forums. Another thing to consider is the inability for Amtrak to surge its capacity very much during high travel times. Many posts over the years mention how the legacy RRs brought out older equipment during rush periods.

This gets us to the problem of equipment. Tell your congress critter Amtrak needs more equipment.

FYI----- The airline industry does not have as high percentage availability of equipment.

 

[railbuck]

Amtrak has previously stated it has the equipment for a City of New Orleans extension to Orlando

That statement may have been made but by whom ? Boardman ?

Equally important is *when* the statement was made. At the time, I believe the NS bilevel order would still have been in play and may have been factored in.

 

[west point]

Amtrak has previously stated it has the equipment for a City of New Orleans extension to Orlando

That statement may have been made but by whom ? Boardman ?

Equally important is *when* the statement was made. At the time, I believe the NS bilevel order would still have been in play and may have been factored in.

Wish I had said that, Very good point! The old / new equipment bug a boo. Amtrak may have been planning for expansion of several routes and trains based on the N-S bi level order. If the order had been proceeding on time would they have been already certified for 125 running and being delivered about 2 a week ? They would also have taken pressure off the single level fleet.

 

[Anderson]

I wonder where we are in terms of slack in the Superliner sleeper fleet, since that's a pretty near to immutable constraint at the moment. I think some equipment was freed by the shuffling of the Sunset Limited's timetable, but the CONO running CHI-NOL is about an 18:30 train while presuming the 2005 timetable were to prevail east of there (roughly 21 hours) the total run would be somewhere in the range of 40-42 hours (depending on padding at NOL, negotiations with CSX, etc.). That means five sets. Of course, if one set were freed by the Sunset East then Amtrak might be able to cobble together a second set from the slack they were able to use as an extra set when the Builder went to pieces, that would do it...but that sure feels like it's cutting it close.

 

[Don Newcomb]

Not true, because CSX would argue that a 12 year suspension due to track conditions is de facto a service discontinuation, and any first year bar member could deliver that with adequate conviction.

At the time, Amtrak was all too happy to just let that route die and blame it on Katrina. Big mistake.

 

[CCC1007]

I wonder where we are in terms of slack in the Superliner sleeper fleet, since that's a pretty near to immutable constraint at the moment. I think some equipment was freed by the shuffling of the Sunset Limited's timetable, but the CONO running CHI-NOL is about an 18:30 train while presuming the 2005 timetable were to prevail east of there (roughly 21 hours) the total run would be somewhere in the range of 40-42 hours (depending on padding at NOL, negotiations with CSX, etc.). That means five sets. Of course, if one set were freed by the Sunset East then Amtrak might be able to cobble together a second set from the slack they were able to use as an extra set when the Builder went to pieces, that would do it...but that sure feels like it's cutting it close.

40-42 hours equates to four sets to me, with 12-16 hours of turnaround time to share between Orlando and Chicago.

 

[jis]

I wonder where we are in terms of slack in the Superliner sleeper fleet, since that's a pretty near to immutable constraint at the moment. I think some equipment was freed by the shuffling of the Sunset Limited's timetable, but the CONO running CHI-NOL is about an 18:30 train while presuming the 2005 timetable were to prevail east of there (roughly 21 hours) the total run would be somewhere in the range of 40-42 hours (depending on padding at NOL, negotiations with CSX, etc.). That means five sets. Of course, if one set were freed by the Sunset East then Amtrak might be able to cobble together a second set from the slack they were able to use as an extra set when the Builder went to pieces, that would do it...but that sure feels like it's cutting it close.

40-42 hours equates to four sets to me, with 12-16 hours of turnaround time to share between Orlando and Chicago.

Instead orf randomly speculating I would like to draw your attention to the detailed analysis already done by Amtrak on page 22-23 of http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5302778ee4b07a6f640874ef/t/5670735bd8af10d0d84e4965/1450210139160/Gulf+Coast+Initiative+Report+2015.pdf

In particular, the proposal is not to run the entire NOL consist all the way to Orlando, but to run a shorter train beyond NOL.The proposal is to run one Coach, one Coach-Baggage, one sleeper and one CCC with one P42 from NOL to ORL 5 such consists are required. which means in effect two additional consists for this shorter train will be required over and above what is already allocated for the three consists used for the CONO. See the table on page 23 for the incremental requirement,

 

[Anderson]

Interesting...the timetable is 42 hours westbound but only 38 hours eastbound. However, I can't find the "extra" hours.

 

[jis]

Interesting...the timetable is 42 hours westbound but only 38 hours eastbound. However, I can't find the "extra" hours.

It is in the dwell time at New Orleans.

 

[Anderson]

...I have no idea how I missed that. There's also some dwell time at Tallahassee the other way (as far as I can tell) to try and give Tallahassee at least passable times (neither 2310 nor 0500 are great, but at least they're not completely "in the hole" a la CIN).

 

[John Bobinyec]

CSX's rebuttal.

I'm wondering whether the installation of PTC should be included in the estimates of necessary investment. If there remains no passenger service from New Orleans to Florida, would it be necessary for CSX to install PTC on that line anyway?

jb

 

[RPC]

If CSX wants to send hazmat (including crude oil) that way, PTC is required by end of 2018. (And this is the east end of the Chemical Coast we're discussing!) I suspect they see an opportunity to have someone else pay for the installation.

 

[MikefromCrete]

You got to remember that CSX needs to find the $80 million it has to pay to Hunter Harrison and his Wall Street buddies to "compensate" him for his move from CP that nobody requested but Hunter and his buddies.

 

[John Bobinyec]

If CSX wants to send hazmat (including crude oil) that way, PTC is required by end of 2018. (And this is the east end of the Chemical Coast we're discussing!) I suspect they see an opportunity to have someone else pay for the installation.

Perhaps the reestablishment of passenger service on the line will have to wait until after CSX has installed PTC there.

jb

 

[west point]

Several different posts have mentioned that CSX has or is planning to route all New Orleans - JAX haz mat traffic from Mobile - Montgomery - LaGrange - Manchester - Jacksonville. now whether that will or is ever going to happen ??? Now as to how intermediate Haz Mat traffic will be handled is problematic.