Senate amendment to eliminate food/beverage on Amtrak (LD too)

[Bob Dylan]

Exactly.
Gerrymandering run amok has removed pretty much all of the swing seats from play, so it's a race to the right to avoid losing out in the primary.

When the Democratic candidates receive more votes nationwide by nearly 2 million votes but win 34 less seats, something is seriously messed up.

Yup. It's called gerrymandering and its disgusting. Of course it does occur on both sides of the aisle, but what they have done recently in Texas is especially heinous.

True this!

 

[pennyk]

Exactly.
Gerrymandering run amok has removed pretty much all of the swing seats from play, so it's a race to the right to avoid losing out in the primary.

When the Democratic candidates receive more votes nationwide by nearly 2 million votes but win 34 less seats, something is seriously messed up.

Yup. It's called gerrymandering and its disgusting. Of course it does occur on both sides of the aisle, but what they have done recently in Texas is especially heinous.

True this!

agreed

 

[Paulus]

How many coach passengers on the Palmetto travel for 36 hours and 1400 miles?

None I imagine. Nor do I imagine very many coach passengers do so on the Starlight.

You must not have a very good imagination, then.

Averages are great, but they don't tell the whole story.

And if you have a statistical breakdown, I'd love to see it.

 

[Anderson]

Ok, although things are remaining polite, I'd like to put on my mod hat for a moment and ask for y'all to keep the discussion on the bill at hand rather than discussing tangentially-related political things (gerrymandering, etc.)...which also have no effect on a Senate amendment since those "districts" are limited by state.

 

[jis]

Ok, although things are remaining polite, I'd like to put on my mod hat for a moment and ask for y'all to keep the discussion on the bill at hand rather than discussing tangentially-related political things (gerrymandering, etc.)...which also have no effect on a Senate amendment since those "districts" are limited by state.

I second that motion....
So the vote on that amendment apparently did not come up today. The Senate ran through a whole bunch of appointments and such other matters, and spent a very brief time on the Bill in question, and considered only one amendment on the HUD portion of the bill which passed, and then went into a bit of procedural gymnastics and then moved onto other matters.

 

[TVRM610]

So the vote on that amendment apparently did not come up today. The Senate ran through a whole bunch of appointments and such other matters, and spent a very brief time on the Bill in question, and considered only one amendment on the HUD portion of the bill which passed, and then went into a bit of procedural gymnastics and then moved onto other matters.

I would see this as good news correct? Or too early to get hopes up?

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Roll Call reported yesterday that "Railroad Bill Likely to Be Pushed Off Until Next Year"

And I don't think they are talking about OUR Railroad Bill!

And today Roll Call had this to say: "Rail Authorization Delay May Aid Amtrak's Bid for Funds"

Interesting reading. Lets hope there is some truth in it! Unless they are talking about 'our' Railroad Bill, of course. Getting pushed off a train has got to hurt! hboy:

 

[jis]

We'll see. An attempt to refer the whole bill back to the Committee in Senate failed. It did get Cloture vote today, and as I said one amendment was considered and passed, but on the HUD part of the bill.

I think Roll Call is talking more about the House bill.

 

[Ryan]

How many coach passengers on the Palmetto travel for 36 hours and 1400 miles?

None I imagine. Nor do I imagine very many coach passengers do so on the Starlight.

You must not have a very good imagination, then.

Averages are great, but they don't tell the whole story.

And if you have a statistical breakdown, I'd love to see it.

I don't. But I do know that people do it from end to end, so your comparison to the Palmetto doesn't hold any water. As Jis already posted, people that actually do have the numbers have crunched them and come to the conclusion that the losses would be significant.

 

[amamba]

I called both my senators and congressman today. They are all three pro-rail.

 

[afigg]

Roll Call reported yesterday that "Railroad Bill Likely to Be Pushed Off Until Next Year"
And I don't think they are talking about OUR Railroad Bill!

And today Roll Call had this to say: "Rail Authorization Delay May Aid Amtrak's Bid for Funds"

Interesting reading. Lets hope there is some truth in it! Unless they are talking about 'our' Railroad Bill, of course. Getting pushed off a train has got to hurt! hboy:

I have not followed what is in the House Reauthorization draft bill, that is if details have even been made public, but I figure there have to be a couple of poison pills in it for Amtrak and LD trains. A continuing resolution that extends the 2008 PRIIA act for a year would probably be the best outcome for Amtrak. As discussed in the Roll Call article, the rail reauthorization would then come up at the same time MAP 21 expires, which could provide an opening for a bigger transportation deal. Or they kick the whole thing into 2015 with more continuing resolutions.

Another advantage to a continuing resolution, if it is not blocked, that it should allow Amtrak to continue the direct transfers from the Treasury to pay for Early Buyout (EBO) of equipment leases. In FY2014, Amtrak was asking for $197 million to exercise EBOs in the budget request. Since it could be very difficult to get the $197 million in the appropriations on top of everything else, getting the money from the Treasury would keep it out of the line item budget and close out lease payments on 7 Superliners, 83 P-42s, 29 Surfliners (source 5 year financial plan). Continue to reduce the debt load so the company will get into a better position to take out loans to buy new rolling stock later.

By next year, Amtrak will have completed the agreements with all the states that are going to provide the corridor train subsidies and should be getting the state subsidy and capital charge payments (well maybe on the capital charges). Should be less uncertainty as to how much Amtrak will be getting from the states and provide a buffer against the whims of the House and Senate. A combination of the Senate appropriation and a CR on the 2008 PRIIA act may be the best possible realistic outcome, given the situation in the House. If that is how it plays out.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

These anti-amtrak senetors must be bribed by the airlines and auto manufactures who want people to use more gas and fly more.

Not really. Amtrak only carries 31 million passengers a year. The airlines carry over 700 million, and the bus lines over 800 million. I don't even know how much it is for cars, but I know automobiles make over 90% of all intercity travel. Cutting Amtrak entirely wouldn't affect the competitors much.

This does comes to backfire against Amtrak because this means that many people would honestly (no bribery) argue that Amtrak is a "nearly useless and non-vital transport service only used by a small fraction of the population for transport and otherwise for land-cruises or railfan obsessions".

 

[RRUserious]

The system is arguably useless. But not all local components are. Obviously the freight carriers are far more crucial to the nation than most of the long distance passenger trains.

 

[jebr]

These anti-amtrak senetors must be bribed by the airlines and auto manufactures who want people to use more gas and fly more.

Not really. Amtrak only carries 31 million passengers a year. The airlines carry over 700 million, and the bus lines over 800 million. I don't even know how much it is for cars, but I know automobiles make over 90% of all intercity travel. Cutting Amtrak entirely wouldn't affect the competitors much.

This does comes to backfire against Amtrak because this means that many people would honestly (no bribery) argue that Amtrak is a "nearly useless and non-vital transport service only used by a small fraction of the population for transport and otherwise for land-cruises or railfan obsessions".

Curious about the bus lines figure...does that include commuter buses and/or city bus service?

A better comparison may be Greyhound (or those services that receive subsidies, such as Jefferson Lines) from the feds. I know there's a few subsidized routes still out there, just like there are a lot of commuter rail lines that probably carry more passengers than Amtrak does itself.

 

[ATXEagle]

I think that all bus lines are subsidized to an extent because they rely on federal, state, and local spending to build and maintain roads. The construction of the interstate highway system in particular is essential to the current business model of the bus companies (especially the discount lines). They also rely on state and local spending for police to enforce the laws and make these roads safe places for them to travel. Of course, bus companies pay taxes and in that way contribute to highway infrastructure. But Amtrak uses its subsidies to maintain the NEC and to pay the freight companies to use their tracks. The bus companies don't have to do anything of the sort because the government provides the roads.

 

[afigg]

Not really. Amtrak only carries 31 million passengers a year. The airlines carry over 700 million, and the bus lines over 800 million. I don't even know how much it is for cars, but I know automobiles make over 90% of all intercity travel. Cutting Amtrak entirely wouldn't affect the competitors much.

This does comes to backfire against Amtrak because this means that many people would honestly (no bribery) argue that Amtrak is a "nearly useless and non-vital transport service only used by a small fraction of the population for transport and otherwise for land-cruises or railfan obsessions".

Curious about the bus lines figure...does that include commuter buses and/or city bus service?
A better comparison may be Greyhound (or those services that receive subsidies, such as Jefferson Lines) from the feds. I know there's a few subsidized routes still out there, just like there are a lot of commuter rail lines that probably carry more passengers than Amtrak does itself.

800 million for bus passengers has to include commuters, possibly charter buses, and so on. According to the Greyhound Facts and Figures webpage:

Greyhound operated nearly 5.5 billion passenger miles last year. The U.S. operation, as well as its operating subsidiaries and Greyhound Canada, carried nearly 18 million people

So 18 million passengers a year for Greyhound & subsidiaries and in the US and Canada. The list of subsidiaries on the website does not include Boltbus or Trailways, so the passenger counts from them may not be included. Found a newspaper article from last October that Megabus was approaching 6 million passengers a year, or about 1/2 of Amtrak carries on the NEC.

As for the commuter railroads, yes, LIRR, Metro-North, NJT, Metra all carry many more passengers in a year than Amtrak. Of course, the NYC subway system with 1.6 billion total passengers in 2012 blows away all the other rail transportation operators in the US in sheer numbers.

 

[cirdan]

It seems to me that this micro management goes much too far.

What about state-supported corrdiors with food or cafeteria service for example.

Surely if states pay the subsidy, they can more or less ask for what they want on those trains, as long as they also pay for it.

And now Congress is telling them, you can't do that?

 

[Paulus]

It seems to me that this micro management goes much too far.
What about state-supported corrdiors with food or cafeteria service for example.

Surely if states pay the subsidy, they can more or less ask for what they want on those trains, as long as they also pay for it.

And now Congress is telling them, you can't do that?

Congress is only forbidding the use of Federal dollars for it. Likely result is that it will only affect the long distance trains.

 

[boxcarsyix]

Did anyone notice that the House has rejected an attempt to cut off subsidized air travel to rural towns and cities where taxpayer costs exceed $250 per ticket. Many Dems voted against the measure. Essential Air Service subsidies make AMTRAK's subsidy look like the pittance it is. Some of those airports serve less than 300 passenger flights a year. :angry2:

 

[RRUserious]

Well, isn't this just an anti-Amtrak vote? If they cut off service, then travelers are forced to support other modes of transport. By subsidizing air travel, they put another dagger in ground transportation so they can say "travelers don't like it". I don't think the two things are unrelated, they are an organized campaign on behalf or the airline industry.

 

[jis]

Anti-Amtrak amendments that were offered to the House Bill - one was defeated and the other did not get enough momentum to even get to the floor.

http://www.narprail.org/news/narp-blog/2332-rail-passengers-help-beat-back-anti-train-amendments

 

[Cooley47]

Well that's a start.

 

[PaulM]

Sec. 155. None of the funds made available under this Act may be used to subsidize costs related to food and beverage and first class services on any route operated by the National Railroad Passenger Corporation.

Just a dumb question. I thought money was fungible. If so, how would Congress know whether "funds made available under this Act" or Amtrak revenue were being used to subsidize food service? If not, if there really are two pots, why not just use funds from the revenue pot to subsidize food service?

If that steals money from spare parts, then simply fund them from Congress's pot. Will Flake introduce an amendment next year that says "Sec. 156. None of the funds made available under this Act may be used to subsidize costs related to spare parts purchased by any unit of the National Railroad Passenger Corporation."

My question assumes the above quote is the gist of the matter, that the amendment doesn't specifically forbid Amtrak from staffing, provisioning, and hooking a dining car onto a train. If it does, what is the penalty for disobedience?

 

[RRUserious]

The Amtrak haters in Congress might be waiting in ambush. Given how the trains run, I'm inclined to wonder how efficiently they use the money they have. Do they manage the system with any goals of betterment?

 

[Anderson]

Can someone get me a link to the relevant roll call vote? The Washington Post roll call list is a bit vague as to what a bunch of votes are (not to mention...are we looking at HR2610 or something else?).