Senate amendment to eliminate food/beverage on Amtrak (LD too)

[Swadian Hardcore]

As far as this food service goes, I think that the Cafe car is not always useful on the shortest routes, which Diners are almost essential on LD routes. By the shortest routes, I mean that Amtrak could cut fod service on the Hiawatha, the shortest Surfliners, the Downeaster, the Pere Marquette, and maybe the NYP-ALB Empire Service.

This is fromm a practical standpoint, I'm obviously not an Amtrak hater and I do enjoy eating in the Diner despite continued arrogance from some other passengers. But please, let us not talk about that again.

 

[BrianPR3]

Can someone get me a link to the relevant roll call vote? The Washington Post roll call list is a bit vague as to what a bunch of votes are (not to mention...are we looking at HR2610 or something else?).

your welcome go to all congressional action with amendments and shows as unfinished business

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d113:H.R.2610:

 

[Anderson]

Thanks a bunch. Looks like it was quite the...interesting evening with all of those amendments.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

"Amtrak could cut food service on the Hiawatha, the shortest Surfliners, the Downeaster, the Pere Marquette, and maybe the NYP-ALB Empire Service."

Surfliners, the Downeaster are state supports services.

NYP-ALB lost there food service several years ago, but it does seem NY will be paying to have it return.

Hiawatha service was a cart that was just cut a few months ago.

 

[jis]

Can someone get me a link to the relevant roll call vote? The Washington Post roll call list is a bit vague as to what a bunch of votes are (not to mention...are we looking at HR2610 or something else?).

If you want it from the proverbial horse's mouth then ....

House: http://clerk.house.gov/legislative/legvotes.aspx

Senate: http://www.senate.gov/pagelayout/legislative/a_three_sections_with_teasers/votes.htm

 

[afigg]

As far as this food service goes, I think that the Cafe car is not always useful on the shortest routes, which Diners are almost essential on LD routes. By the shortest routes, I mean that Amtrak could cut fod service on the Hiawatha, the shortest Surfliners, the Downeaster, the Pere Marquette, and maybe the NYP-ALB Empire Service.

These all are or will be state supported corridor services where it is up to the state to decide what type of food service to have on the train. The Downeaster is a 2.5 hour trip from BON to Portland. That is a long enough trip that people will want to get sodas, snacks, meals. In general, if it was up to me, any Amtrak train service that has trips longer than 90 minutes to 2 hours should have food and beverage service of some type on board, whether it be vending machines or a café car. If you want people to take the train, should take advantage of the space and offer food service that the bus services can't.
The Pere Marquette is a 4 hour trip end to end, pretty long trip if you didn't bring something to drink with you or are hungry. The Hiawathas are around 90 minutes trips, so they are really extended commuter trains. But it is up to the states to decide if they want to pay for food and beverage service losses.

 

[jis]

Just in case Charlie has not already posted this somewhere....

http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2013/07/31/the-tragedy-of-john-mica.aspx

 

[cirdan]

Thanks a bunch. Looks like it was quite the...interesting evening with all of those amendments.

I wonder if anybody has ever costed what an hour of debate in Congress on a non-issue costs in terms of salaries, staff costs, security etc and whether anybody would confront these time wasters with the true costs of their actions.

 

[RRUserious]

That would be an interesting mathematical function. The value of one variable is approaching zero right now, which is why polls give Congress a rating of 12 percent.

 

[Anderson]

Thanks a bunch. Looks like it was quite the...interesting evening with all of those amendments.

I wonder if anybody has ever costed what an hour of debate in Congress on a non-issue costs in terms of salaries, staff costs, security etc and whether anybody would confront these time wasters with the true costs of their actions.

Well, the problem with such analysis is that almost all of the "main" staff in Congress are salaried, not hourly, and at least some of the security, etc. is going to be running 24/7 (since you occasionally get staff in the buildings all night, etc.). So the net cost of adding an hour of debate is going to be fairly limited as a result when compared with the overall operating cost of things. An amusing analysis going the other way would be showing how Congress, by staying in session more, reduces the per-day/per-hour cost of operating by spreading out those fixed costs over more operating time.

 

[BrianPR3]

looks like something happened? :blink:

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=113&session=1&vote=00199

 

[jis]

Cloture Motion was rejected, which means they cannot vote on the bill, which means there will be no vote on the Senate THUD bill before the August break.

The House has already kicked the can down the road on their THUD bill, when Cantor realized he did not have the votes to pass the House Bill.

So stay tuned...... come back in September to watch the continuing circus brought to you by the most do nothing Congress in years.

Roll Call speculates that this will all just land up into another continuing resolution and the can will be kicked out to next year.

 

[ATXEagle]

I wonder if anybody has ever costed what an hour of debate in Congress on a non-issue costs in terms of salaries, staff costs, security etc and whether anybody would confront these time wasters with the true costs of their actions.

That would be awesome. For some reason, just reading this brightened my whole day!

 

[RRUserious]

I wonder if they'd pick up the pace if they had to pay for health care like everyone else.

 

[AlanB]

Meals can be served in room, catered by outside sources. For those that say "that won't work" look at the Empire Builder Portland Section.. it serves Dinner on the East bound, and Breakfast on the West bound. Both meals are catered from 2 different sources. You know what.. it works! For those of you that say "it won't be good quality" I've read multiple reports on this site that say the best meal they have been served on Amtrak is the catered dinner on the Empire Builder. This is a real legitimate option.

I've not had the dinner, but have heard good things about it. But the breakfast is horrible IMHO!

And one uncooked meal over a 3 day trip might fly well with the 30 or so passengers in that Portland sleeper, it isn't going to work for all the passengers on a combined train for 3 days and a bunch of meals.

 

[Anderson]

Cloture Motion was rejected, which means they cannot vote on the bill, which means there will be no vote on the Senate THUD bill before the August break.
The House has already kicked the can down the road on their THUD bill, when Cantor realized he did not have the votes to pass the House Bill.

So stay tuned...... come back in September to watch the continuing circus brought to you by the most do nothing Congress in years.

Roll Call speculates that this will all just land up into another continuing resolution and the can will be kicked out to next year.

I hate to say this, but I think I'd be happy if Amtrak and TIGER just got CRed for the next few years. Yes, I'd like some more funding for them, but Amtrak clearly has enough money in their operating account (especially with losses in the national train system down by about $100m YTD) to keep on running. The feeling at the present, at least to me, is that we're "on the bubble"...that with capacity additions (the multi-state order and the Viewliner IIs) and cars getting moved around as a result Amtrak is in very good shape. Add in the added state support for next year and the picture gets even better. I'd also point out that per the June MPR, June saw 99% cost recovery; YTD we're at 88% vs. 83% last year. Yes, some of this is payment timing and the like, but we're getting there slowly. And with things like the new POS systems and whatnot, it looks like things should improve on that front as well.

At the moment, what Amtrak seems to need above all is time to implement reforms. The PIP elements that were not implemented were, in several cases, held up not by Amtrak but by needing funding and some agreements to come into place (the Cap-Penny cars), third-party legal issues (the FEC runs), or Amtrak futzing negotiations (the Sunset Limited stuff). A lot of it is just taking time, for the simple fact that Amtrak has to deal with a lot of people. It's not a cultural issue that's causing trouble, it's practical implementation issues and capacity limits preventing some things from happening, and the fact that others simply take time to make come to pass holding up others.

 

[RRUserious]

Based on my experience in Union Station in Chicago, they really need to shape up their management. They badly mishandled it when my EB came in 6 hours late.

 

[ATXEagle]

I know what you mean... I've encountered really excellent Amtrak employees, but others haven't been so great. As a passenger, from a customer service standpoint, it seems to me like consistency of product could be improved across the board. I know it's a far-flung operation that's got to be difficult to manage. But I still think that effective oversight and enforcement of company policies would go a long way to improving the passenger experience and Amtrak's financial bottom line.

I'm about to leave on a three night sleeper trip on the Texas Eagle, Capitol Limited, and Silver Star. I'm excited and thrilled, of course. But I always get this unease about the possibility of encountering abysmal service in the dining car or a disappearing sleeping car attendant. (Back in June, it was a dreadful dining car crew on the Capitol Limited that cast a pall on my trip.) For the price that Amtrak charges for a sleeper, no passenger should have to worry about bad service. I love Amtrak, but the unevenness of the experience and the occasional ineptitude has made me very hesitant to recommend it to all but a few friends and family.

Contrast that with my favorite airline, Southwest. It has never once crossed my mind to worry about hostile or rude service on a flight. I know it's got to happen from time to time. Yet the experience is so infrequent that the possibility doesn't even occur to me.

I wish Amtrak continued success, but sometimes it doesn't seem like all their employees are willing to do what it takes to achieve success.

 

[afigg]

I hate to say this, but I think I'd be happy if Amtrak and TIGER just got CRed for the next few years. Yes, I'd like some more funding for them, but Amtrak clearly has enough money in their operating account (especially with losses in the national train system down by about $100m YTD) to keep on running. The feeling at the present, at least to me, is that we're "on the bubble"...that with capacity additions (the multi-state order and the Viewliner IIs) and cars getting moved around as a result Amtrak is in very good shape. Add in the added state support for next year and the picture gets even better. I'd also point out that per the June MPR, June saw 99% cost recovery; YTD we're at 88% vs. 83% last year. Yes, some of this is payment timing and the like, but we're getting there slowly. And with things like the new POS systems and whatnot, it looks like things should improve on that front as well.

I think Boardman would disagree with you on the capital grant amount if there is a continuing resolution with sequestration. If you look at the June report, capital and maintenance expenditures were cut and will come in less than budgeted; all due to the cuts. He has issued direct warnings about the inadequate capital funding to maintain and modernize the NEC. There is a dire warning in his column in the July Amtrak Ink on the NEC infrastructure. If the FY2013 capital grant level stays the same at $642 million, that means no replacement of the Portal Bridge, no advancement beyond limited studies for the Gateway project, no rolling stock purchases. The operating surplus from the NE Regionals is going to be used up in part to pay for the ACS-64s.
Having said that, a CR for both the FY2014 budget and 2008 PRIIA act would be preferable to the House draft bills. However, I think a bigger deal may be struck after a lot of shouting and posturing that does away with sequestration. The House Republican caucus is showing serious cracks with the more reasonable Republicans getting tired of trying to satisfy the hardliners and ideologues.

In the Senate, I wonder how close the cloture vote to vote on the THUD bill really was. It was 54 to 43, needing 60 votes to break the filibuster. If the head count ahead of the vote showed the count was just shy of 60 votes, several Republicans might change their vote to nay for political cover. In the Thursday Wash Post, there was a mention of Sen McConnell working to get the Republicans who had broken the impasse on the recent batch of nominations back in line to block the THUD bill. It was a party line vote, except for Sen Collins (R-ME) who voted yes. McCain did not vote, neither did Landrieu (D-LA). The Democrats are down one vote in the Senate with interim Sen Chiesa (R-NJ) voting against cloture, presumably following Gov. Christie's instructions to vote however the Senate Republican leadership wants him to. Cory Booker (D) is expected to become the NJ Senator after the mid-October special elections.

The Senate Democrats will try again in September to get their THUD bill passed. If the House Republicans can't pass their own THUD bill with the draconian cuts, Boehner may have no choice but to bring the Senate version to the House floor where it could pass. Lot of political maneuvering and fighting yet to come.

 

[Bus Nut]

or Amtrak futzing negotiations (the Sunset Limited stuff).

Please explain what Amtrak did wrong here. It's Unca Pete, they're in the driver's seat in negotiations, and it's a busy one-track line. What I've heard is that UP is going to double track out of necessity on their own and that Amtrak is going to attempt round two after that happens, but basically UP can name their price to run another train now and that price was in the stratosphere. UP is entitled to compensation for the economic cost of putting extra trains out there.

Just don't see what Amtrak could have done differently.

 

[Bus Nut]

Did anyone notice that the House has rejected an attempt to cut off subsidized air travel to rural towns and cities where taxpayer costs exceed $250 per ticket. Many Dems voted against the measure. Essential Air Service subsidies make AMTRAK's subsidy look like the pittance it is. Some of those airports serve less than 300 passenger flights a year. :angry2:

The TOTAL spent on this program (EAS) is $199mill/year, so it's not a budget buster in the overall scheme of things.

The current cut-off is $1000/passenger to have service discontinued. (The subsidy is also ended if an airline runs service out of that airport for a profit, too.) Currently there are a number of carriers that pretty much rely on EAS subsidy payments to operate, a sort of public bus of the skies.

That per passenger subsidy ought to be flogged loudly and widely every time someone complains that this or that Amtrak trip is subsidized.

And remember, that's operating expenses only. It doesn't even count air traffic control or capital investments in ground infrastructure.

Amtrak ALSO provides essential service to rural communities, clearly a lot more cost effectively than EAS!

Here's some info on appropriations levels: http://www.nado.org/final-faa-reauthorization-deal-modifies-essential-air-service/

 

[afigg]

or Amtrak futzing negotiations (the Sunset Limited stuff).

Please explain what Amtrak did wrong here. It's Unca Pete, they're in the driver's seat in negotiations, and it's a busy one-track line. What I've heard is that UP is going to double track out of necessity on their own and that Amtrak is going to attempt round two after that happens, but basically UP can name their price to run another train now and that price was in the stratosphere. UP is entitled to compensation for the economic cost of putting extra trains out there.

Just don't see what Amtrak could have done differently.

There are reports from those on the inside that one or more managers at Amtrak mishandled the negotiations with UP in meetings and ticked off UP management. So UP asked for $750 million for a daily Sunset Limited, probably the cost of completing the double tracking project between Colton and El Paso. UP is not "going to double track", but has been installing a second track and upgrading the line between El Paso and SoCal for years. As of the start of 2011, according to the Texas Eagle & Sunset Limited PIP report, 62% of the Sunset route had been double tracked. UP has been continuing the double tracking work since then.

Amtrak's agreement with UP that allowed the schedule change for the SL but in return Amtrak would not request a daily SL is only for 2 years. So in 2014, when more of the route is double tracked. Amtrak could take another run at UP for a daily SL.

 

[tonys96]

Did anyone notice that the House has rejected an attempt to cut off subsidized air travel to rural towns and cities where taxpayer costs exceed $250 per ticket. Many Dems voted against the measure. Essential Air Service subsidies make AMTRAK's subsidy look like the pittance it is. Some of those airports serve less than 300 passenger flights a year. :angry2:

Maybe these folks should just take the Palmetto?

 

[afigg]

Politico has the details on what happened in the Senate on Thursday with the failure of the vote to invoke cloture which would override the filibuster and this allow the Transportation and Housing bill to come to a floor vote: Senate THUD battle pitted Mitch McConnell against Susan Collins. Senator McConnell made a major effort to block the vote.

 

[PaulM]

Based on my experience in Union Station in Chicago, they really need to shape up their management. They badly mishandled it when my EB came in 6 hours late.

My experience was just the opposite when we missed a connection recently. They seemed very well organized. Not that they shouldn't be with all the experience handling mis-connects off the EB.