Siemens Caltrans/IDOT Venture design, engineering, testing and delivery (2012-1Q 2024)

[GDRRiley]

I am wondering if anyone can throw any light on what exactly is going on with the induction of Venture Cars from the Midwest/California order into service, or shall we say lack thereof. It seems like Brightline and VIA are having no problem introducing their cars into service while the State order is stuck in neutral gear for months growing to years. What gives?

California has 2 sets ready short of cab cars but its Amtrak thats holding them up. Siemens fixed the issues for California but Amtrak waited months to start certifying them.
The first sets here (short of cab cars) were suppose to be entering service in California now.

this was the June 2022 plan between Caltrans and the JPAs

View attachment 30854
The cab cars have been under construction for a few months now.

That is almost certainly a California cab car

 

[Steve4031]

I wish I knew. I have been watching this carefully. The cars have functioned well on my warm-weather trips. I was intending to take a cold weather trip but with all of the cancelations, this never came about.

There were reports of issues with frozen equipment on the Michigan line, but that train had both types of cars. There was a photo. The venture car's running gear and equipment were covered with snow and ice much like any car under winter conditions.

This is really annoying. I wish Amtrak would get it's act together.

 

[jis]

So at first blush it would seem that AManagement does not just become dysfunctional when LD service is involved. They are equal opportunity dysfunctional even for corridor services. This does not bode well for national passenger service either of the LD or the Corridor variety I am afraid, outside of the NEC and attachments apparently.

 

[PerRock]

I am wondering if anyone can throw any light on what exactly is going on with the induction of Venture Cars from the Midwest/California order into service, or shall we say lack thereof. It seems like Brightline and VIA are having no problem introducing their cars into service while the State order is stuck in neutral gear for months growing to years. What gives?

The AASTHO just had their annual Next Generation Corridor Equipment Pool Committee meeting (as opposed to their shorter monthly ones) on the 3rd. Hopefully the information & slides will be posted on their website soon... although I had to bug them last time to get most of the 2022 monthly meetings added. AASHTO - High Speed Rail - Section 305 Committee

peter

 

[John Bredin]

This does not bode well for national passenger service either of the LD or the Corridor variety I am afraid, outside of the NEC and attachments apparently.

Tired of catastrophizing. God grant rail supporters the courage to take on Amtrak when it screws up, the serenity to not blame every delay and incident on Amtrak, and the wisdom to know the difference.

We can land on 'em like a ton of bricks when we actually have information. It's wearying to bash broadly (can't run anything outside the NEC) in the absence of information.

 

[John Bredin]

California has 2 sets ready short of cab cars but its Amtrak thats holding them up.

As the November 2022 report on the committee website helpfully linked by PerRock states:

IDOT coaches are currently in revenue service and Caltrans is planning revenue start once all necessary agreements are in place.

While things might have changed since that November report, California not running its cars while Illinois does sounds (IMH layman's O) less like Amtrak holding them up and more like CalDOT holding them up. Which may be for good reason, we don't know.

 

[JWM]

Canada's VIA sets are running between Ottawa and Quebec City with no issues that I can find. May I also point out that it's really cold up there. Waiting for another Amtrak excuse.

 

[jis]

As the November 2022 report on the committee website helpfully linked by PerRock states:

While things might have changed since that November report, California not running its cars while Illinois does sounds (IMH layman's O) less like Amtrak holding them up and more like CalDOT holding them up. Which may be for good reason, we don't know.

My understanding is that Illinois is running relatively few of the cars that they have received. They have a large number of cars parked and never used so far in commercial service.

I wonder if CalDOT/Amtrak are waiting for the cab cars to get full sets to run in California. Since they are fully semi-permanently coupled sets, absent the cab car there would not be a car at that end with an H coupler, which would be somewhat inconvenient to say the least.

 

[John Bredin]

My understanding is that Illinois is running relatively few of the cars that they have received. They have a large number of cars parked and never used so far in commercial service.

From what I can see on the Midwest cameras, it's a mixed bag. I've seen trains at St. Louis (I want to say 318 & 319) with four Venture coaches and an Amfleet cafe/business. I've seen trains at St. Louis and elsewhere (Galesburg on the IL Zephyr/Carl Sandburg, Bangor MI on the Pere Marquette) with no Ventures, or only one or two Ventures. No cams I'm aware of on the Wolverine route, but I was in Detroit in mid-November and saw a Wolverine with four Ventures and an Amfleet cafe/business.

 

[railpost]

I really don't see what is good about the so called "semi permanently" coupled train sets that Amtrak has ordered. These new sets essentially will have fixed consists, meaning that to increase passenger capacity they will have to be taken to the shops to have another car or two added. It is far better just to be able to add or subtract what ever may be needed by coupling more cars to the rear of the train like Amfleet. It seems that Amtrak management is makiing a foolish mistake by not ordering cars that you can just simply couple onto the trains like you can do with the Amfleet or Horizon cars.

 

[GDRRiley]

I really don't see what is good about the so called "semi permanently" coupled train sets that Amtrak has ordered. These new sets essentially will have fixed consists, meaning that to increase passenger capacity they will have to be taken to the shops to have another car or two added. It is far better just to be able to add or subtract what ever may be needed by coupling more cars to the rear of the train like Amfleet. It seems that Amtrak management is makiing a foolish mistake by not ordering cars that you can just simply couple onto the trains like you can do with the Amfleet or Horizon cars.

adding cars is simple enough. its ~30 mins to add or remove cars from a consist which is fairly quick. Amtrak does need longer trains for the NEC but this is about the midwest who will likely stick with pairs for a long time. they could move to longer sets if the shop was setup for it but I'm not aware of them planning to make that change.

 

[MARC Rider]

So at first blush it would seem that AManagement does not just become dysfunctional when LD service is involved. They are equal opportunity dysfunctional even for corridor services. This does not bode well for national passenger service either of the LD or the Corridor variety I am afraid, outside of the NEC and attachments apparently.

Only "outside the NEC?" How about all those next gen Acelas that have been sitting around for over a year parked in various rail yards along the corridor? And who knows what will happen during the delivery of the Airos. Plus, neither the Portal Bridge, the Baltimore tunnels nor the Hudson tunnels are finished yet. Lots of opportunities for things to get screwed up in the NEC.

 

[railpost]

adding cars is simple enough. its ~30 mins to add or remove cars from a consist which is fairly quick. Amtrak does need longer trains for the NEC but this is about the midwest who will likely stick with pairs for a long time. they could move to longer sets if the shop was setup for it but I'm not aware of them planning to make that change.

Yes that was my mistake as I actually did have the Airo train sets in mind and they going to be in either 6 or 8 car configurations according to what I read. I take it that the Airo and the Venture cars are supposed to be practically the same in terms of the design or will there really be any noticeable differences between the two?

Yes I do know that the Venture cars will mainly be in married pair configurations with some single cars as well. Will it be more difficult to add cars to the Airo sets which to my understanding are intended to be the Northeast Corridor replacements for the Amfleet?

 

[jis]

The California Venture cars are not in married pair configurations. Their entire consist is semi-permanently coupled as will be the Ventures used in Airo sets.

 

[railpost]

This is the same mistake that the early Amtrak managment made during the early 1970s when they ordered the Anf Frangeco train sets which were run between Chicago St Louis, MIlwaukee and Detroit for a few years before eventually being taken out of service for the more practical Amfleet and Horizon cars. I remember riding the French Turboliners back then. They even ran them through Chicago from Milwaukee to St Louis via Springfield Illinois at times.

The California Venture cars are not in married pair configurations. Their entire consist is semi-permanently coupled as will be the Ventures used in Airo sets.

That is exactly what I was afraid of as with the Amfleet or the California bilevel cars all you need to do is just add or subtract cars as needed to accommodate the crowds. I really wonder how much experience the people at Amtrak who ordered the new train sets have in terms of actually runniing passenger trains.

 

[JWM]

I really don't see what is good about the so called "semi permanently" coupled train sets that Amtrak has ordered. These new sets essentially will have fixed consists, meaning that to increase passenger capacity they will have to be taken to the shops to have another car or two added. It is far better just to be able to add or subtract what ever may be needed by coupling more cars to the rear of the train like Amfleet. It seems that Amtrak management is makiing a foolish mistake by not ordering cars that you can just simply couple onto the trains like you can do with the Amfleet or Horizon cars.

Every time we have tried fixed consist in this country, they have proven unsatisfactory for the reason you state. It makes it impossible to rotate cars while taking into account load factors.

 

[GDRRiley]

That is exactly what I was afraid of as with the Amfleet or the California bilevel cars all you need to do is just add or subtract cars as needed to accommodate the crowds. I really wonder how much experience the people at Amtrak who ordered the new train sets have in terms of actually runniing passenger trains.

California does not shuffle cars much. Go up a few post from me and you'll see how the state has sets configured. that rarely changes

 

[jis]

California does not shuffle cars much. Go up a few post from me and you'll see how the state has sets configured. that rarely changes

Indeed! Considering that most of the world's largest operators of corridor services have now stopped using individually composed trains and started using fixed consist D/EMUs, one thing it is hard to blame Amtrak about is that they are doing something that experienced rail operators running intense corridor services, do not do

 

[GDRRiley]

Indeed! Considering that most of the world's largest operators of corridor services have now stopped using individually composed trains and started using fixed consist D/EMUs, one thing it is hard to blame Amtrak about is that they are doing something that experienced rail operators running intense corridor services, do not do

I doubt Amtrak will do the preventive upkeep needed to match parts of the Swiss and Austrain network where they have Stadler FLIRTs and KISS running with 0 spares and just 4 hours of downtime nightly for upkeep.

 

[jis]

I doubt Amtrak will do the preventive upkeep needed to match parts of the Swiss and Austrain network where they have Stadler FLIRTs and KISS running with 0 spares and just 4 hours of downtime nightly for upkeep.

I am sure Amtrak will do its 20% spare They do that with everything … 20-25% spare.

 

[GDRRiley]

I am sure Amtrak will do its 20% spare They do that with everything … 20-25% spare.

I get locos being 20% spare but they should be able to have coaches down to nearly no spares if they maintained stuff well

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Something is up with this order for all the cars to not be in service, it's getting ridiculous on Amtrak's part. From Facebook to here, I'll say what I always say. Fixed trainsets were not common back when Amtrak or even the railroads operated passenger trains in this country. So yes, passenger cars semi-permanently coupled together or Turboliners didn't do so well then, but that was over half a century ago or longer.

Even in Europe, fixed trainsets weren't common back then. However, like every new idea from decades ago, sooner or later the technology gets refined and improves. Today and a lot of people seem to miss this, but the railroad industry across the world has changed drastically. Multiple unit trains are much more reliable these days and the ability to swap out a bad ordered car in a trainset can be done much quicker, as outlined by others.

I just don't understand why people keep bringing up failures in the railroad industry from decades ago, as a justification to not try it again in the present where the technology has significantly improved and is regularly used in many countries. Boggles my mind at times, especially when Brightline and VIA are doing just fine with them as fixed trainsets. Let's give Siemens a chance everyone.

 

[Trogdor]

Fixed trainsets, when done properly, simplify maintenance, simplify yard operations, allow better consistency, and that can improve reliability overall.

How much time and yard crew resources are spent cutting out (for example) the 3rd car in a 7-car consist because it, specifically, is due for an inspection? Plus, you need 3 yard tracks with room to make such a move, one to leave the half of the train behind, one to drop off the bad car, and another one holding the replacement car that needs to go back in (and that assumes the replacement car, itself, isn’t buried halfway back in a line somewhere). Every time you couple and uncouple a car, you increase the chance for something getting damaged requiring further maintenance in the future (HEP cables, air hoses, etc.).

With a trainset, every car is on the same maintenance cycle. No need to break anything up. For random mechanical glitches, there’s very little that actually requires breaking up a trainset in order to repair.

 

[Kramerica]

when done properly,

That's what we're worried about. It is isn't the trainsets themselves. It is Amtrak's competence. What have they done in the last two decades to inspire confidence that they'll do things properly?

 

[jis]

Slides from the NGEC 2023 Annual Meeting:

Midwest Locomotive and Passenger Car 2023 Update (PDF)