Southwest Chief derailment (June 2022)

[Eric in East County]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/l...ver-capacity-before-missouri-crash/ar-AAZkjip
This is interesting. This is my “home train” I ride it often and it is very true they use the SSL for “overflow” seating. I’ve heard the announcement a few times myself.

We no longer travel with checked luggage but distribute everything we bring with us among our carry on items. When traveling in coach, there are certain items such as Pat’s purse, our laptop, and my camera bag that we keep with us at our seats and don’t leave in the luggage rack with our suitcases. If we were assigned to overflow seating in a SSL, we would have these items with us, holding them on our laps or keeping them next to our seats. Other passengers required to sit in the SSL due to the train being sold out would probably have their personal items with them, too. In the event of a rollover such as happened in Missouri, all of these loose items would be set into motion, possibly colliding with other passengers with sufficient force to cause injuries. So, we can see where the practice of using a SSL for overflow passenger seating on a sold out train could be hazardous, and why passengers could use it as justification for bringing legal action against Amtrak.

 

[pennyk]

MODERATOR NOTE: Please keep your comments in this thread on the topic of the SWC derailment. Several posts relating to general train/auto/pedestrian accidents were moved to the general thread on that topic.
https://www.amtraktrains.com/thread...or-motor-vehicles-accidents-fatalities.82003/
Thank you for your understanding and continued cooperation.

 

[SarahZ]

I agree, A train traveling at 90 miles give you how many seconds of advance notice? How long does it take a vehicle to cross say intersection? You have to see and reaction correctly. There a reason the locals are demanding a safer and better way across these two tracks.

I did the math on this a few pages back.

Unless you were being rhetorical.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I think it’s about 10 seconds if they started at 1/4 mile per FRA rules.

 

[Cal]

One thing that has come to mind is the yellow stool. If someone’s in the vestibule and the train is flipping over at 90mph (well less because of friction) it seems like the yellow stool could cause a serious (head) injury as it’s not usually very secured.

 

[zephyr17]

One thing that has come to mind is the yellow stool. If someone’s in the vestibule and the train is flipping over at 90mph (well less because of friction) it seems like the yellow stool could cause a serious (head) injury as it’s not usually very secured.

Yeah, that sucker is made out of steel pipe and is at most just hooked on a handrail.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

I did the math on this a few pages back.

Unless you were being rhetorical.

Rhetorical, there several questions unknown in this issue. I am just tired of the blame game before all facts are know. A tractor trailer needs 18 seconds to cross a intersection. A truck is not permitted to change gears while on a railroad crossing. Was the track 25’ on center that a lot of space to cover when the twice a day higher than normal speed train is approaching. Did the truck drive make a complete stop, could he see the train? Could you or me identify it by the lights on the engine as a fast mover?

The locals were complaining about this crossing so how many of them had close calls before this wreck.

NTSB doing there stuff, there human, but they are trying hard to cover all aspects.

 

[WWW]

Also note this was a double track zone - twice as many tracks to cross safely !

 

[George Harris]

Rhetorical, there several questions unknown in this issue. I am just tired of the blame game before all facts are know. A tractor trailer needs 18 seconds to cross a intersection. A truck is not permitted to change gears while on a railroad crossing. Was the track 25’ on center that a lot of space to cover when the twice a day higher than normal speed train is approaching. Did the truck drive make a complete stop, could he see the train? Could you or me identify it by the lights on the engine as a fast mover?

Based on the pictures, track centers appear to be about the usual for lines that have been double track for most of the years of major track construction, that is in the range of 13 to 15 feet, with 13.5 to 14 feet being most common. (Much of the Northeast tracks are 13 feet or less on center.) 10 mph is 14 2/3 feet per second, so if we take track centers 14 feet plus train width 10'-8" plus truck, say 25 feet, after all this is a dump truck, not a tractor-trailer with a 53 feet trailer, you have 50 feet you have to traverse from nose clear of train to tail clear of train, so that is 7 1/3 seconds. 90 mph is 132 feet per second, so the train would travel 968 feet in that length of time. It needs to be remembered that freights are allowed up to 70 mph here, which is 103 feet per second so in the same time the freight could travel 753 feet. Not really a lot of difference. Any sense of self preservation should result in extreme caution and making sure you had plenty of clear time before crossing these tracks,

 

[Cal]

There is a slow section through the derailment site

 

[Eric in East County]

There is a slow section through the derailment site View attachment 28835View attachment 28836View attachment 28837

Although the relative distances shown in photos can be deceiving based on the lens that was used, it appears to me that someone at this intersection could see a considerable distance down the tracks, perhaps a half mile or so. Based on the speed of the SWC No. 4 train involved in the collision/derailment, how long would it have taken for it to reach the intersection from the furthest point visible in the photograph taken at the intersection?

 

[SarahZ]

Although the relative distances shown in photos can be deceiving based on the lens that was used, it appears to me that someone at this intersection could see a considerable distance down the tracks, perhaps a half mile or so. Based on the speed of the SWC No. 4 train involved in the collision/derailment, how long would it have taken for it to reach the intersection from the furthest point visible in the photograph taken at the intersection?

At 90 mph, it takes 20 seconds to go a half-mile.

A fully loaded dump truck takes approximately 35-40 seconds to speed up to 25 mph, and that's on a completely level grade. (Source: Good friend with a current CDL)

 

[WWW]

At 90 mph, it takes 20 seconds to go a half-mile.

A fully loaded dump truck takes approximately 35-40 seconds to speed up to 25 mph, and that's on a completely level grade. (Source: Good friend with a current CDL)

And how much ground is traveled in those 35-40 seconds to achieve 25 mph ?
I can walk at 3 mph - 5280 x 3 =15840 feet - probably can walk across the crossing of 50 odd feet in some 15 seconds - - -

There is enough time - you have straight track (albeit two) and you do not see lights of the locomotive - you are at the crossing
see no lights - unless you are a dumb klutz with shifting gears and use of the throttle to achieve sufficient speed to cross the
track(s) getting across should be accomplished with adequate time. Now distraction - failure to look both directions and your
envelope of time to safely cross is reduced. Still YET no lights good to go - SEE LIGHTS reconsider your action ! It couldn't be
any more simple and straight forward as the tracks you are crossing. Stupid is what stupid does.
With two tracks - lights on one - don't even think of crossing until that train has passed to view the other track for headlights !
Having noted that - train dispatchers don't dispatch trains that close together at high speed. There will be a safe time to cross.

 

[John819]

Simply stated, the train had the right of way. The truck had to yield. If the truck driver felt it was unsafe to cross then he had to wait; perhaps have the driver of the second truck get out and look down the tracks.

Note that a delay of one to two seconds it all it took to change a miss into a hit.

 

[Eric in East County]

With a ledger-straight right-of-way like this one, it might be possible to see further than a half-mile down the track. (Not having been there, I can’t determine from the photo exactly how far down the track one can see and at what distance the locomotive’s light would first become visible.) This information will undoubtedly be included in the NTSB report.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Do commercial vehicle drivers think the railroad is responsible for preventing them from making careless decisions? Do they assume every crossing is safe for all traffic at all times if nobody has closed it down? There are dozens if not hundreds of videos of drivers making careless decisions at grade crossings that likely resulted in permanent injury or death. These drivers may as well blame a GPS for directing them to drive into a lake because it's the same logic and deflection at play. Blame the railroad for not being able to cross the tracks rather than for having chosen to cross the tracks unsafely despite the risks.

 

[Barb Stout]

What is the current route of the SWC in this area of derailment? Or is it back in use now?

 

[AmtrakBlue]

What is the current route of the SWC in this area of derailment? Or is it back in use now?

It’s back in use. See Cal’s post above. I think he was on it yesterday.

 

[zephyr17]

What is the current route of the SWC in this area of derailment? Or is it back in use now?

I don't think they ever detoured.

 

[TinCan782]

I don't think they ever detoured.

Correct, as far as I know.

 

[WWW]

I believe that since it was a double track line - only one track was compromised - the good adjacent track was used by the MOW equipment
to restore the torn up track. The trains 3 & 4 had a service break between Kansas City and Chicago - maybe bus bridging around that ?
Only when there is a bridge out does the railroad have a problem restoring service within a day or two.
Now as for replacing damaged cars and locomotives - well that is another issue taking more time - Beech Grove must be working overtime !

 

[crescent2]

Also in the FRA -
“If a train is traveling faster than 60 mph, engineers will not sound the horn until it is within ¼ mile of the crossing, even if the advance warning is less than 15 seconds.”

Less than 15 seconds warning time doesn't seem to me to be enough to be safe, especially if the crossing is an especially difficult one for any number of possible reasons (sharp diagonal to the tracks, obstructed view farther down the track, steep incline, gravel surface, etc.).

It doesn't cost a cent to start blowing the horn several seconds sooner. Not blaming the engineers, though; that would likely be a railroad regulation.

It will be interesting to see the NTSB's conclusions on contributing factors to the accident. The responsibility is ultimately on the vehicle driver, but that doesn't mean the crossing shouldn't be made safer, especially by measures that aren't even costly. (Realizing there are never unlimited funds.)

 

[Amtrak709]

Less than 15 seconds warning time doesn't seem to me to be enough to be safe, especially if the crossing is an especially difficult one for any number of possible reasons (sharp diagonal to the tracks, obstructed view farther down the track, steep incline, gravel surface, etc.).

It doesn't cost a cent to start blowing the horn several seconds sooner. Not blaming the engineers, though; that would likely be a railroad regulation.

It will be interesting to see the NTSB's conclusions on contributing factors to the accident. The responsibility is ultimately on the vehicle driver, but that doesn't mean the crossing shouldn't be made safer, especially by measures that aren't even costly. (Realizing there are never unlimited funds.)

crescent2: I, too, anxiously await the NTSB's report. It has been my opinion that the NTSB does a very highly professional job in collating the facts to a respectable conclusion. Their current chairman, Jenifer Homendy, has always been an Amtrak advocate BUT she has been critical at times when and if necessary. A good recent example of NTSB thoroughness, in my opinion, is the accident involving Amtrak 91 in Cayce SC 4 years ago. Sure it was crystal clear to any average observer that the freight conductor's error in failing to realign a switch to the main which diverted 91 into an occupied siding was the cause; but, if you read the probable cause statement, that obvious error is mentioned in a subordinate position to other factors. Again, just my opinion.

 

[Cal]

By the way, according to train orders superliner list, many superliners involved in derailments took several years to be returned to service .http://trainweb.org/web_lurker/AmtrakSuperliner/

 

[SarahZ]

And how much ground is traveled in those 35-40 seconds to achieve 25 mph ?
I can walk at 3 mph - 5280 x 3 =15840 feet - probably can walk across the crossing of 50 odd feet in some 15 seconds - - -

There is enough time - you have straight track (albeit two) and you do not see lights of the locomotive - you are at the crossing
see no lights - unless you are a dumb klutz with shifting gears and use of the throttle to achieve sufficient speed to cross the
track(s) getting across should be accomplished with adequate time. Now distraction - failure to look both directions and your
envelope of time to safely cross is reduced. Still YET no lights good to go - SEE LIGHTS reconsider your action ! It couldn't be
any more simple and straight forward as the tracks you are crossing. Stupid is what stupid does.
With two tracks - lights on one - don't even think of crossing until that train has passed to view the other track for headlights !
Having noted that - train dispatchers don't dispatch trains that close together at high speed. There will be a safe time to cross.

They asked for the math. I provided the math. I am not taking a side.